Player Discussion: Player Development

[Hunter368]

General thread meant for discussing player development, strategies, the good, bad & ugly, etc.

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[trebendan]

Can Julien and Levis play in the AHL in 24-25, or would it be beneficial for their development to go back to the CHL as overagers?

 

[Teppo Numenor]

I believe julien can

 

[KingBogo]

I think one thing that has become clear is the Jets have a very methodical strategy to player development. Once a player moves to the NA pro level they want their top prospect forwards to spend 1-2 years on the Moose and their top prospect defensemen to spend 2-3 years on the Moose. The only exceptions were top 10 picks who went straight from amateur teams to the Jets and only Laine did it as an 18 y/o.

 

[Hunter368]

I think one thing that has become clear is the Jets have a very methodical strategy to player development. Once a player moves to the NA pro level they want their top prospect forwards to spend 1-2 years on the Moose and their top prospect defensemen to spend 2-3 years on the Moose. The only exceptions were top 10 picks who went straight from amateur teams to the Jets and only Laine did it as an 18 y/o.

Agreed

Chevy has stated in the past peaks into their strategy which includes letting prospects over ripen at times to help them prepare for the NHL. While that strategy helps in some ways it does hurt potentially the relationship with prospects.

I think most of us can relate in our careers, most I think feel they’ve been ready for that next big step in their career/company before their boss/company feels the same way. At times it can be about right place right time, meaning there isn’t always an opening to promote people. Sometimes it can work out, sometimes it doesn’t any change needs to happen.

 

[KingBogo]

Agreed

Chevy has stated in the past peaks into their strategy which includes letting prospects over ripen at times to help them prepare for the NHL. While that strategy helps in some ways it does hurt potentially the relationship with prospects.

I think most of us can relate in our careers, most I think feel they’ve been ready for that next big step in their career/company before their boss/company feels the same way. At times it can be about right place right time, meaning there isn’t always an opening to promote people. Sometimes it can work out, sometimes it doesn’t any change needs to happen.

Agreed it can possibly hurt relationships with prospects but most probably believe they are ready much sooner than those that make decisions. Wanting to play in the NHL isn’t a reason to do so.

 

[JetsFan815]

I will start off by mentioning the elephant in the room here (and the player who probably inspired this thread):

Jonathan Kovacevic

Allright have fun ya'll.

 

[bumblebeeman]

It would be interesting you compare different teams' successs rates with prospect development. I feel like there probably isn't a huge difference, but could be mistaken. It seems like the individual player's talent and attitude is much more important than what the team does. But I'm just guessing here

 

[KingBogo]

I will start off by mentioning the elephant in the room here (and the player who probably inspired this thread):

Jonathan Kovacevic

Allright have fun ya'll.

And the least interesting thing to discuss. A 6/7/8 defenceman lost to waivers a couple years ago when we have a potential #2 center in Lambert and potentially a top pairing RHD in Salo. Never mind another dozen or so better prospects in the organization than Kovacevic ever was.

 

[snowkiddin]

I will start off by mentioning the elephant in the room here (and the player who probably inspired this thread):

Jonathan Kovacevic

Allright have fun ya'll.

Mikey Eyssimont died for this

 

[JetsFan815]

And the least interesting thing to discuss. A 6/7/8 defenceman lost to waivers a couple years ago when we have a potential #2 center in Lambert and potentially a top pairing RHD in Salo. Never mind another dozen or so better prospects in the organization than Kovacevic ever was.

Mikey Eyssimont died for this

Hey don't shoot the messenger. My guess is this thread was created in response the overflowing Kovacevic discussion in other threads lately leading to mod warnings, deleted posts, infractions and thread bans.

 

[Hunter368]

Agreed it can possibly hurt relationships with prospects but most probably believe they are ready much sooner than those that make decisions. Wanting to play in the NHL isn’t a reason to do so.

IMO, it’s a fine line to walk especially when you’re in win now mode with a playoff team. Keeping prospects, vets happy and meeting team’s expectations in the standings. GM’s get paid good money for those tough decisions and discussions

Habs as an example are rebuilding, literally the expectations are very low on players and coach, heck management likely doesn’t even want to win at this stage for them they want to keep tanking, so they can put a prospect into the lineup with no negatives other than potential rushing a prospect.

 

[KingBogo]

IMO, it’s a fine line to walk especially when you’re in win now mode with a playoff team. Keeping prospects, vets happy and meeting team’s expectations in the standings. GM’s get paid good money for those tough decisions and discussions

Habs as an example are rebuilding, literally the expectations are very low on players and coach, heck management likely doesn’t even want to win at this stage for them they want to keep tanking, so they can put a prospect into the lineup with no negatives other than potential rushing a prospect.

The other reality only a small handful are actually important to the teams future. Most will be at the level of replacement level players that float around the league every summer looking for a place to play on 1 and 2 year league minimum deals, so losing them is of minimal consequence. The rest never get close enough to even worry about.

 

[Buffdog]

I will start off by mentioning the elephant in the room here (and the player who probably inspired this thread):

Jonathan Kovacevic

Allright have fun ya'll.

Does anyone remember where we ranked this guy in the annual prospects polls while he was a part of the org?

 

[KingBogo]

Does anyone remember where we ranked this guy in the annual prospects polls while he was a part of the org?

Does it really matter? Kovacevic is now deep depth. He just got traded for by NJ for a 4th round pick 2 years from now. The RHD depth chart in NJ ahead of him is:

Hamilton
Pesce
Nemec
Seamus

He is a guy that now makes below league minimum (which is probably his biggest value) that can be parked in the PB. He would make zero difference to our future.

 

[Flair Hay]

It would be interesting you compare different teams' successs rates with prospect development. I feel like there probably isn't a huge difference, but could be mistaken. It seems like the individual player's talent and attitude is much more important than what the team does. But I'm just guessing here

I have a hunch you're right. It's hard because it cam be a bit of a chicken and egg argument

 

[Flair Hay]

Does it really matter? Kovacevic is now deep depth. He just got traded for by NJ for a 4th round pick 2 years from now. The RHD depth chart in NJ ahead of him is:

Hamilton
Pesce
Nemec
Seamus

He is a guy that now makes below league minimum (which is probably his biggest value) that can be parked in the PB. He would make zero difference to our future.

It's fair to categorize him this way. That's what he's trade price reflects.

Obviously a few of us suspect he is more of a 4/5 being underrated. But even that type isn't rare or difference making.

I do think that it is important in the sense of cap efficiency. I think the frustrations stem from having inefficient contracts when we have capable role players. But those two are seperate issues I get that.

 

[KingBogo]

It's fair to categorize him this way. That's what he's trade price reflects.

Obviously a few of us suspect he is more of a 4/5 being underrated. But even that type isn't rare or difference making.

I do think that it is important in the sense of cap efficiency. I think the frustrations stem from having inefficient contracts when we have capable role players. But those two are seperate issues I get that.

He wasn't even 4/5 on the Habs, maybe the worst defense in the league. Even they didn't see him as part of their future even though he was on their roster for 2 years and is still only 27.

 

[WolfHouse]

Feel free to discuss Neil Pionks player development while you're bashing kovacevic . Pionk wouldn't make the NJD roster either

 

[Buffdog]

Feel free to discuss Neil Pionks player development while you're bashing kovacevic . Pionk wouldn't make the NJD roster either

We didn't develop Pionk

The way he played this year, it looked like nobody did lol

 

[DRW204]

I will start off by mentioning the elephant in the room here (and the player who probably inspired this thread):

Jonathan Kovacevic

Allright have fun ya'll.

Better than Hedman

 

[WolfHouse]

Better than Hedman
View attachment 895612

Now I want to trade for Nick Perbix just for the name

 

[ps241]

Does it really matter? Kovacevic is now deep depth. He just got traded for by NJ for a 4th round pick 2 years from now. The RHD depth chart in NJ ahead of him is:

Hamilton
Pesce
Nemec
Seamus

He is a guy that now makes below league minimum (which is probably his biggest value) that can be parked in the PB. He would make zero difference to our future.

Realistically Kovacevic is 27 years old and he is a 6-7 level D man. They wanted to make room in Montreal and he was expendable for a 4th round pick. I have trouble manufacturing much interest him anymore.

I will keep an eye on Chisholm this year for the fun of it.

Same goes for in house guys that kind of top out at 4th liners or bottom pairing. Guys like Gus and Stan currently do nothing for me as far as the feels being in house guys. They can be replaced easily even by the Jets. They don’t carry much value.

I would say the cut off line for me on forward is right between Appleton (doesn’t do much for me) and Copp. Copp was a really strong 3rd line asset with Tanev and Lowry, then he morphed into an effective top 6 forward that we turned into a great trade haul. Apples to me plays on the 3rd line but I think Nino and Lowry carry the water. I look at him as bottom six asset that is easy to replace and won’t have much if any trade value.

For D my cut off is between a guy like Stanley and Chiarot. Logan is what he is which is a bottom pairing 6-7 guy that if we get lucky he may settle in to being a good bottom pairing player. Chiarot remains a fascinating outlier to me. He was a slow starter in juniors and didn't really put up points until his last year in junior. Then he took the better part of 4 seasons in the AHL before getting his 40 games with the Jets. Then as a pro with limited talent he worked his ass off to move out of the bottom pair. Their weird part about Ben is how functional he can be playing beside Buff, then Weber, and now Seider?? What exactly is it about Ben that makes him a somewhat functional side kick to the top dog on teams. He remains more of an enigma to me that he does to other people but there is no doubt he carried more value than a bottom pair guy and though he was often maligned (By Habs fans and Jets fans to a lesser degree) to me he added value.

Not even sure what point I am trying in that last paragraph except I love prospects but as they transition to roster players if they don't rise above easily replaceable then my give a shit factor goes away.

 

[Jet]

Agreed

Chevy has stated in the past peaks into their strategy which includes letting prospects over ripen at times to help them prepare for the NHL. While that strategy helps in some ways it does hurt potentially the relationship with prospects.

I think most of us can relate in our careers, most I think feel they’ve been ready for that next big step in their career/company before their boss/company feels the same way. At times it can be about right place right time, meaning there isn’t always an opening to promote people. Sometimes it can work out, sometimes it doesn’t any change needs to happen.

That's actually a really good comparison. I've been 'held back' at work more than once when I feel like I should be promoted - and I usually come to realize I was NOT ready when I thought I was.

Since pro athletes rely so heavily on internal belief and confidence, having that shattered can be devastating to their development.

Of course the argument can be made that constantly holding someone back can also be damaging, so there's got to be a good balance there.

I think the main issue is when even the org believes a prospect could play up the org but they're being blocked by other players. Then you get into contracts and politics which adds so much complexity.

I think the Jets have struggled a bit with this.

 

[Hunter368]

That's actually a really good comparison. I've been 'held back' at work more than once when I feel like I should be promoted - and I usually come to realize I was NOT ready when I thought I was.

Since pro athletes rely so heavily on internal belief and confidence, having that shattered can be devastating to their development.

Of course the argument can be made that constantly holding someone back can also be damaging, so there's got to be a good balance there.

I think the main issue is when even the org believes a prospect could play up the org but they're being blocked by other players. Then you get into contracts and politics which adds so much complexity.

I think the Jets have struggled a bit with this.

100% agree. I've left some very big companies where I hit the glass ceiling and there was no room for advancement past my current role barring 1-2 throughout the entire company and that would of required someone to die or retire (which happens rarely). I wasn't content to sit in my current role, bc in one's career you have a small window of peek earning and I wasn't going to wait 3-5-8 years for someone at the top of the company to die or retire so I left. Me leaving a company is similar to a player demanding a trade to another team where they do have a chance to play or play a bigger role.

In the end the GM has to walk a fine line of creating openings for prospects, balancing the cap and putting the best competitive team on the ice for fans & ownership. Tough job no doubt. At times the Jets haven't done a good job of this IMO, being a small market who struggles to attract big name players is also a factor, as is a smaller team budget (comparing vs Leafs or Habs etc who always can burn money to make mistakes go away).