Player Discussion: Player Development

[macmaroon]

Realistically Kovacevic is 27 years old and he is a 6-7 level D man.

I must have misread your post, as I didn't think he was as tall as Stanley...

 

[WolfHouse]

Guys... Kovacevic is gone. Let's move on.

How about that Tyrel Bauer

 

[surixon]

I think as we have gotten to be a perennial playoff team player integration has taken a bit of a back seat.

Let's look at Snerg. He's only now getting a shot at a top 4 position and he's pretty much on cusp of UFA. He theoretically could have a big year, go to arbitration and walk in two years. Given how well he's played to me his transition up the lineup has been slow and we may lose him before really seeing his best. On the flip side the org has really only given itself one year to really assess Dylan in a top 4 role before needing to decide if they want to make a long term commitment.

While I haven't exactly liked how they have handled things at times with Ville and Cole, they have 4 and 5 years of control left.so plenty of time.

I get trying to win but I think you also need to present clear advancement opportunities to keep the talented youth you have invested in the process.

 

[voyageur]

I think the Jets have done pretty good with development. Considering the team started with Kane, Bogosian and Burmistrov all making the pro ranks at 18, then Scheifele gets 2 years in junior and a year insulated by Jokkinen. Changing Lowry to C was a good development strategy looking back. Chiarot and Postma are two guys from the Thrashers who were developed by the org and turned pro.

Trouba didn't get developed but I think he was mentored pretty good by Mark Stuart. Jets took their time with Hellebuyck, and gave him competition to earn his starting role.

Morrissey got time to develop into a grown player.

Copp didn't need much development...I do think the Jets had a good line in Petan-Copp-Armia that was never used because the team still wanted that tough identity.

Ehlers got to learn from the pros at an age when junior was probably not best for him.

Connor and Roslovic got the Moose experience before turning pro.

The Jets didn't hit on supplementary d-men in the first five years, and that left a void, in depth.

They filled that void with a lot of picks after 2016, so much so that there wasn't room for everyone.

Finding centers since Little retired has been an issue requiring stop gaps but I think there's some potential now. They definitely handled Lambert well to date.

Heinola's journey has been bumpy, maybe those Covid years robbed him of a true development. Still he's made it.

It's those 3rd round to 5th round picks who are not likely NHLers that the Jets have drafted and developed that impress me the most about the org...those guys are the ones who need work and refinement to get to the next level.

The Jets have also done pretty well with overage picks, and finding some depth undrafted talent.

The difference between being a non playoff team to a playoff team has changed the opportunities in development for sure.

 

[Hunter368]

I think as we have gotten to be a perennial playoff team player integration has taken a bit of a back seat.

Let's look at Snerg. He's only now getting a shot at a top 4 position and he's pretty much on cusp of UFA. He theoretically could have a big year, go to arbitration and walk in two years. Given how well he's played to me his transition up the lineup has been slow and we may lose him before really seeing his best. On the flip side the org has really only given itself one year to really assess Dylan in a top 4 role before needing to decide if they want to make a long term commitment.

While I haven't exactly liked how they have handled things at times with Ville and Cole, they have 4 and 5 years of control left.so plenty of time.

I get trying to win but I think you also need to present clear advancement opportunities to keep the talented youth you have invested in the process.

Agreed

Teams can't "ignore" prospects development so the team can always compete, otherwise prospects will get annoyed and want to be traded. Every player cares more about himself then the teams success, I have no issues with that. I mean its no different then each of us care more about our careers then the companies we work for success, perfectly fine to think that way. Successful teams over a long term need to figure out that balance of winning, cap management, developing prospects, allowing prospects to play, keeping vets reasonable happy just like you need to keep prospects happy, etc

 

[voyageur]

Feel free to discuss Neil Pionks player development while you're bashing kovacevic . Pionk wouldn't make the NJD roster either

30 point d-man in 5 seasons with 14 pts in 22 playoff games...seems like the Jets haven't developed a lot of those.

 

[Buffdog]

I guess we also have to kind of define what we mean by "development"

To me, there are different types of attributes that need to be developed. Skill, skating, physical size and strength, ability to read the play/hockey IQ, integrating pro systems/positioning, etc... I'm sure I missed a few

Prospects will show up each year and be at different places along all of those pathways. For example, Copp was often referred to as "pro-ready" because his game in college looked a lot like you'd want a player to play like in the pros and he was physically mature

Schief needed to work on his skating. Cole had great hockey sense/IQ but also needed a bit of jump as well as size/strength. Ville also was slight when he was first drafted and needed to grow and full out

So when we're talking about a player's development and whether the org mishandled it, I think it would be productive to be specific.

I'd also note that being deficient in one (or multiple) areas I mentionned will have a lesser effect at lower levels. A guy like Ville (for example) can succeed with a smaller frame at the AHL level vs bigger/older players because his IQ and skating make up for it. It would be tougher in the NHL where most players skate well. Because of this, we watch him on the Moose and call him "ready" based on how he dominates there, but we aren't aware of the fact that he can't bench 135 or do a chin up (hypothetically)

Last think I'll say is that because the hockey landscape for kids has changed, I think that we're seeing players much closer to their ceilings in terms of skill and skating at younger ages than we have in the past. When I was a kid, we put away our hockey shit in April and grabbed a ball glove or soccer ball and weren't on the ice until September (maybe a week of hockey school in the summer)

Now kids at this level are on the ice year round (often at specialized hockey programs) and they work with strength and conditioning and skating coaches.

To me, this means that the development process could be shorter, and more focused on how to think/play the game at the pro level, get them used to the grind (although the CHL is a grind itself) and just physically mature into men

 

[Hank Chinaski]

It would be interesting you compare different teams' successs rates with prospect development. I feel like there probably isn't a huge difference, but could be mistaken. It seems like the individual player's talent and attitude is much more important than what the team does. But I'm just guessing here

Agree completely. Specifically, I’ve heard the term and notion of “poor player development” thrown around quite liberally in the last few decades. To me that generally translates as “my pet prospect isn’t anywhere near as good as I thought he would be, and I’m gonna blame the organization”.

That said, there are definitely examples of poor development. Eg. Our boy Nino, handled very poorly by Islanders, has gone on to be a quality NHL middle six F. Definitely some cases where you can identify poor development when a player moves on to another organization.

 

[WolfHouse]

30 point d-man in 5 seasons with 14 pts in 22 playoff games...seems like the Jets haven't developed a lot of those.

Besides DeMelo? He's developed into a consistent offensive Dman with the Jets... Samberg's trajectory is aiming for 30 point range if he's given top 4 mins and some PP time

I'd be surprised if Miller didn't hit 30 points given Pionks usage - I think mid-range 'offensive D' performance is much more based on usage rather than pure talent

 

[WolfHouse]

I guess we also have to kind of define what we mean by "development"

To me, there are different types of attributes that need to be developed. Skill, skating, physical size and strength, ability to read the play/hockey IQ, integrating pro systems/positioning, etc... I'm sure I missed a few

Prospects will show up each year and be at different places along all of those pathways. For example, Copp was often referred to as "pro-ready" because his game in college looked a lot like you'd want a player to play like in the pros and he was physically mature

Schief needed to work on his skating. Cole had great hockey sense/IQ but also needed a bit of jump as well as size/strength. Ville also was slight when he was first drafted and needed to grow and full out

So when we're talking about a player's development and whether the org mishandled it, I think it would be productive to be specific.

I'd also note that being deficient in one (or multiple) areas I mentionned will have a lesser effect at lower levels. A guy like Ville (for example) can succeed with a smaller frame at the AHL level vs bigger/older players because his IQ and skating make up for it. It would be tougher in the NHL where most players skate well. Because of this, we watch him on the Moose and call him "ready" based on how he dominates there, but we aren't aware of the fact that he can't bench 135 or do a chin up (hypothetically)

Last think I'll say is that because the hockey landscape for kids has changed, I think that we're seeing players much closer to their ceilings in terms of skill and skating at younger ages than we have in the past. When I was a kid, we put away our hockey shit in April and grabbed a ball glove or soccer ball and weren't on the ice until September (maybe a week of hockey school in the summer)

Now kids at this level are on the ice year round (often at specialized hockey programs) and they work with strength and conditioning and skating coaches.

To me, this means that the development process could be shorter, and more focused on how to think/play the game at the pro level, get them used to the grind (although the CHL is a grind itself) and just physically mature into men

Obviously we pick apart the Jets more than other teams... but you can see many GMs/Coaches still opting for proven 'bad' veterans rather than potentially good prospects... I mean Dallas essentially played short-handed instead of icing Bischel in the playoffs and they are seen as a good development team...

Totally agree about the ceiling thing - the only reason for holding prospects back is really for them to fill out or work on skating - everything else is pretty much complete by the time they are drafted.... unless you're picking a boom/bust project like Julien

I do think prospects recognize the salary cap game a lot more now too and want to circumvent it - I think GMs like Chevy who try to grind as much value from entry level years are in tough...

The best way to get a player to think at the NHL level is to give them games in the NHL... what would have been better for the Jets org? Losing games because of Samberg, Kova, Chisholm or Heinola.... or losing games because of Bitetto, Forbort, Sbisa, Booboo and Benn...

I do not see the Copp and Trouba contracts as albatrosses and think the Jets would have been well-served to overpay to keep their prospects (ignoring the external Trouba factors obviously) - like I'd sign Perfetti and Samberg to long-term 5-6 million contracts before arbitration ever becomes an option

Jets are getting into a trap where prospects such as McGro likely look at the fact that they will be on the Lowry line and developed as a grinder... if I had Mcgro's power, not sure I wouldn't hold out - not just because of Perfetti but also Copp, Roslo, etc... If the team leaves Copp at 2C to develop, maybe he hits 7m a year... if Roslo isn't forced to be a grinder, maybe he hits his stride.. we will never know - but I see how a prospect would look at things

I suspect McGro's 'demands' for NHL time this year were more about burning a year of his ELC as opposed to 'entitlement' but who knows

Long story short - I'm a lot more open to Perfetti as Scheif's RW, Lambert as our 2C, Samberg on PP1, Barron at 3C and Chib as first callup than I am with status quo...

 

[Buffdog]

Obviously we pick apart the Jets more than other teams... but you can see many GMs/Coaches still opting for proven 'bad' veterans rather than potentially good prospects... I mean Dallas essentially played short-handed instead of icing Bischel in the playoffs and they are seen as a good development team...

Totally agree about the ceiling thing - the only reason for holding prospects back is really for them to fill out or work on skating - everything else is pretty much complete by the time they are drafted.... unless you're picking a boom/bust project like Julien

I do think prospects recognize the salary cap game a lot more now too and want to circumvent it - I think GMs like Chevy who try to grind as much value from entry level years are in tough...

The best way to get a player to think at the NHL level is to give them games in the NHL... what would have been better for the Jets org? Losing games because of Samberg, Kova, Chisholm or Heinola.... or losing games because of Bitetto, Forbort, Sbisa, Booboo and Benn...

I do not see the Copp and Trouba contracts as albatrosses and think the Jets would have been well-served to overpay to keep their prospects (ignoring the external Trouba factors obviously) - like I'd sign Perfetti and Samberg to long-term 5-6 million contracts before arbitration ever becomes an option

Jets are getting into a trap where prospects such as McGro likely look at the fact that they will be on the Lowry line and developed as a grinder... if I had Mcgro's power, not sure I wouldn't hold out - not just because of Perfetti but also Copp, Roslo, etc... If the team leaves Copp at 2C to develop, maybe he hits 7m a year... if Roslo isn't forced to be a grinder, maybe he hits his stride.. we will never know - but I see how a prospect would look at things

I suspect McGro's 'demands' for NHL time this year were more about burning a year of his ELC as opposed to 'entitlement' but who knows

Long story short - I'm a lot more open to Perfetti as Scheif's RW, Lambert as our 2C, Samberg on PP1, Barron at 3C and Chib as first callup than I am with status quo...

I think there are probably a couple more reasons than the bolded, one of them just being overall maturity

For better or worse (mostly worse lol), hockey culture, especially around junior teams, can be pretty "party heavy". I think that there are some kids that come in with a lifestyle that wouldn't be conducive to being handed $1M plus per year while at the same time expecting them to be responsible enough to be pro hockey players in thr best league in the world. (Cough cough bogosian cough)

These are the things that an org would see that we aren't privy too. All we see are on-ice results and we wonder why kids aren't up playing in the big league sooner

TL/DR, these guys need to develop as humans sometimes too before they deserve a spot on the big team

 

[NA Hockey]

Obviously we pick apart the Jets more than other teams... but you can see many GMs/Coaches still opting for proven 'bad' veterans rather than potentially good prospects... I mean Dallas essentially played short-handed instead of icing Bischel in the playoffs and they are seen as a good development team...

Totally agree about the ceiling thing - the only reason for holding prospects back is really for them to fill out or work on skating - everything else is pretty much complete by the time they are drafted.... unless you're picking a boom/bust project like Julien

I do think prospects recognize the salary cap game a lot more now too and want to circumvent it - I think GMs like Chevy who try to grind as much value from entry level years are in tough...

The best way to get a player to think at the NHL level is to give them games in the NHL... what would have been better for the Jets org? Losing games because of Samberg, Kova, Chisholm or Heinola.... or losing games because of Bitetto, Forbort, Sbisa, Booboo and Benn...

I do not see the Copp and Trouba contracts as albatrosses and think the Jets would have been well-served to overpay to keep their prospects (ignoring the external Trouba factors obviously) - like I'd sign Perfetti and Samberg to long-term 5-6 million contracts before arbitration ever becomes an option

Jets are getting into a trap where prospects such as McGro likely look at the fact that they will be on the Lowry line and developed as a grinder... if I had Mcgro's power, not sure I wouldn't hold out - not just because of Perfetti but also Copp, Roslo, etc... If the team leaves Copp at 2C to develop, maybe he hits 7m a year... if Roslo isn't forced to be a grinder, maybe he hits his stride.. we will never know - but I see how a prospect would look at things

I suspect McGro's 'demands' for NHL time this year were more about burning a year of his ELC as opposed to 'entitlement' but who knows

Long story short - I'm a lot more open to Perfetti as Scheif's RW, Lambert as our 2C, Samberg on PP1, Barron at 3C and Chib as first callup than I am with status quo...

I agree with everything you said but did you really mean Samberg on PP1 instead of JoMo?

I love Samberg but not sure he is a PP1 option. PK1 for sure.

 

[WolfHouse]

I agree with everything you said but did you really mean Samberg on PP1 instead of JoMo?

I love Samberg but not sure he is a PP1 option. PK1 for sure.

Yeah I kind of do... the way we set up our power play we need a heavy shot from the blue line and JoMo is a set up guy more than anything - at the very least I'd bump Pionk from the power play...

I still want the Jets to run an even power play distribution though between PP1 and 2 but thats likely not going to happen ever.

 

[macmaroon]

Guys... Kovacevic is gone. Let's move on.

How about that Tyrel Bauer

But he's one of this year's inductees in the HFJets Legends Hall of Fame...

 

[WolfHouse]

But he's one of this year's inductees in the HFJets Legends Hall of Fame...

View attachment 895819

We really should do that on here... have a vote for our annual inductee into the Coulda Shoulda Wall of Shame

Or perhaps the Stempniak Memorial Hall of Fame

 

[macmaroon]

We really should do that on here... have a vote for our annual inductee into the Coulda Shoulda Wall of Shame

Or perhaps the Stempniak Memorial Hall of Fame

He's already been inducted...

 

[WolfHouse]

He's already been inducted...

View attachment 895821

Alright then....

The Mike Eagles Spread Your Wings And Fly Hall of Fame!!!!!

 

[Hunter368]

Alright then....

The Mike Eagles Spread Your Wings And Fly Hall of Fame!!!!!

Mike Eagles, I haven't thought of him in a long time, years. Heart.......

 

[Buffdog]

Mike Eagles, I haven't thought of him in a long time, years. Heart.......

Wasn't he on a line with Domi and King?

 

[WolfHouse]

Wasn't he on a line with Domi and King?

How that line didn't end up with a cool nickname I'll never understand

 

[10Ducky10]

We didn't develop Pionk

The way he played this year, it looked like nobody did lol

He's outscored Trouba since the trade...regular season and playoffs.

 

[Flair Hay]

He's outscored Trouba since the trade...regular season and playoffs.

There are some stats that paint Pionk in a positive light.

But most metrics point to him being a net negative. And at times a pretty significant one.

Not like we had a choice with Trouba. No sense comparing him and Pionk any more.

Where I think it relates to plater development is - how are we evaluating our defensemen? Because there is a lot of data that would suggest this is a case where we aren't doing a great job of evaluating some of our own defensemen.

Maybe that's more on coaching than player development.

 

[TS Quint]

There are some stats that paint Pionk in a positive light.

But most metrics point to him being a net negative. And at times a pretty significant one.

Not like we had a choice with Trouba. No sense comparing him and Pionk any more.

Where I think it relates to plater development is - how are we evaluating our defensemen? Because there is a lot of data that would suggest this is a case where we aren't doing a great job of evaluating some of our own defensemen.

Maybe that's more on coaching than player development.

What data suggests the Jets aren’t doing a great job evaluating talent?

 

[Jet]

Agree completely. Specifically, I’ve heard the term and notion of “poor player development” thrown around quite liberally in the last few decades. To me that generally translates as “my pet prospect isn’t anywhere near as good as I thought he would be, and I’m gonna blame the organization”.

That said, there are definitely examples of poor development. Eg. Our boy Nino, handled very poorly by Islanders, has gone on to be a quality NHL middle six F. Definitely some cases where you can identify poor development when a player moves on to another organization.

Or, maybe nino was a bit of a late bloomer. I look at a guy like Tanev, who was given a ton of opportunity here as a guy who may not have even made the nhl of he was in another teams system, especially one that was in win mode. After a lot of opportunity and reps, he seemed to take a step none of us right possible and started to produce offense, making him a highly sought after player.

It's so hard to predict which players have more in them, what their ceilings are, and when they are going to 'get it'.

As much as Stanley is dragged here he does have attributes that could lend him to reach a higher level. We could nice him and he could flip that switch and realize more of the potential the org obviously sees in him.

I think we tend to oversimplify player development as fans.

 

[DRW204]

What data suggests the Jets aren’t doing a great job evaluating talent?

Jets let a player superior to hedman go for nothing

(not a serious post, just how ridiculous some of these stats are)