Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - Does anyone actually trust JR?

[Randy Butternubs]

Well, I was just going to say "I can't imagine Billy Guerin is content with the goalie situation in Minnesota", but then I realized they have Kaapo Kahkonen nearly ready...

That ruins my plan of acquiring Jordan Greenway.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Here are the stat lines for all of the top end players for the Penguins in the last 2 playoffs:

Crosby: 2 goals and 4 points in 8 games
Malkin: 1 goal and 4 points in 8 games
Rust: 1 goal and 3 points in 8 games
Letang: 0 goals and 1 point in 8 games
Kessel: 1 goal and 2 points in 4 games
Guentzel: 2 goals and 4 points in 8 games
Hornqvist: 1 goal and 2 points in 8 games

But yes, it's JR's fault that this team has lost while looking like shit in the playoffs. It's totally not the fault of the core that isn't playing even remotely to the caliber that they should be playing at.

I mean Christ, Connor f*cking Sheary was one of their best players against the Habs. Freaking Sheary was better than a lot of their highly paid core players! And you're going to blame JR for the losses while acting like Malkin and Letang aren't massively responsible for it?

 

[66-30-33]

Well, I was just going to say "I can't imagine Billy Guerin is content with the goalie situation in Minnesota", but then I realized they have Kaapo Kahkonen nearly ready...

That ruins my plan of acquiring Jordan Greenway.

Imagine adding Greenway and Foligno, that would give us some more size ha!

 

[HandshakeLine]

Let's burn this sucker to the ground.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

So you're blaming JR for the big guns not showing up? Because they've lost in both of the last 2 years due to the big guns not showing up.

You're just further proving my point about people refusing to blame the core for the failures of this team, and instead just scapegoating the GM and coach.

So what's the solution? Which is the easier route to take? Fire a GM and coach that have proven they've lost the plot for the last several years and try to get one more Cup out of the core? Or trade everybody and stick with the GM and coach?

You sound ridiculous when you say JR and Sully aren't at fault, quite frankly. Absurd, really. We got smoked by a fast, aggressive team two years in a row because our depth sucks and our blueline's in shambles. Who built the team? Sid and Geno? Or the GM that took a back to back Cup-winning formula of speed, skill and depth and decided to chase size and muscle because Tom Wilson got into his head? The coach continuously overplays the worst player, not just defenseman, in the league in JJ, and pairs him with a guy that's been a corpse on skates since he put pen to paper after the last Cup in Schultz.

Sid and Geno are old. They're not going to will this team to victories it otherwise doesn't deserve anymore like they did years ago. They need a better supporting cast than a nothing 3rd line with McCann, Hornqvist, Marleau, etc. and a 4th line with absolutely zero offensive potential. If JR can't provide that kind of depth, either because he's incapable of finding the players and pulling off the trades, or because he doesn't see any issue, he's unfit to GM. Plain and simple.

I don't understand how a single person can cling to defending JR anymore. The writing's been on the wall for years now, what's one more wasted season as the clock ticks down to midnight?

 

[Empoleon8771]

So what's the solution? Which is the easier route to take? Fire a GM and coach that have proven they've lost the plot for the last several years and try to get one more Cup out of the core? Or trade everybody and stick with the GM and coach?

You sound ridiculous when you say JR and Sully aren't at fault, quite frankly. Absurd, really. We got smoked by a fast, aggressive team two years in a row because our depth sucks and our blueline's in shambles. Who built the team? Sid and Geno? Or the GM that took a back to back Cup-winning formula of speed, skill and depth and decided to chase size and muscle because Tom Wilson got into his head? The coach continuously overplays the worst player, not just defenseman, in the league in JJ, and pairs him with a guy that's been a corpse on skates since he put pen to paper after the last Cup in Schultz.

Sid and Geno are old. They're not going to will this team to victories it otherwise doesn't deserve anymore like they did years ago. They need a better supporting cast than a nothing 3rd line with McCann, Hornqvist, Marleau, etc. and a 4th line with absolutely zero offensive potential. If JR can't provide that kind of depth, either because he's incapable of finding the players and pulling off the trades, or because he doesn't see any issue, he's unfit to GM. Plain and simple.

I don't understand how a single person can cling to defending JR anymore. The writing's been on the wall for years now, what's one more wasted season as the clock ticks down to midnight?

JR isn't the problem on this team. You can argue Sullivan is, but you can't reasonably argue that JR is. This roster is terrific on paper outside of the 3rd pair.

I get kinda annoyed when people scapegoat JR and Sullivan for the failures of the players. Like sure, they're not blameless (especially not in Sullivan's case), but calls for firing JR because multiple highly paid players didn't show up in the playoffs bothers the hell out of me.

You're scapegoating the GM and coach for the failures of the core while acting like the core has done nothing wrong.

I think you're just fundamentally wrong on what caused the Penguins to lose in the playoffs. They didn't lose in the playoffs because their "blueline is in shambles". They didn't lose because their "depth sucks". They lost because the guys who are paid to produce didn't produce. You seem like you're going out of your way to come up with excuses for the core, like saying "Sid and Geno are old", while hammering JR on literally any mistake he made.

If guys like Malkin, Rust, Letang and such would have shown up on the scoreboard this year, the Penguins would probably still be playing right now. This isn't a situation where the core did their jobs but the rest of the team failed, this was completely a failure of the core. Acting like anything otherwise is just scapegoating people you want to scapegoat.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

You're scapegoating the GM and coach for the failures of the core while acting like the core has done nothing wrong.

I've called the core out numerous times. I just realize we're married to this core, and moving one or multiple of the Big Three results in a 3-5 year period of heavy rebuild before we can even begin to think of competing again. But, I'm not against that, because this team cannot undo the issues plaguing it in time to take another run at a Cup before Geno and Letang are gone in two years anyway.

I just think it's f***ing crazy for people to look at the construction of this team over the past several years and say "Hey, they're fine doing their jobs, it's Sid/Geno!" It's as asinine as the people who rip into a goalie for not stopping a breakaway. "You just gotta make the save regardless of the circumstances!" Again, Sid and Geno are old. They can't do what MacKinnon or McDavid do anymore. They need legitimate support, not a bunch of vanilla, do-nothing players who put up decent enough stat lines during the regular season to fool people into thinking they're any good. Sid and Geno need more than a McCann 3rd line can give them. They need more than this blackhole of a 4th line can give them. They need someone on the blueline to be any kind of threat in transition or offensively. They need someone on the blueline outside of Marino to be capable of handling a forecheck without crumpling under the pressure and coughing up the puck.

They need a new GM and a new coach. And if that doesn't make a difference, then it was all for naught anyway, and this team simply is as bad as I've been saying, and they should sell everyone off and gear up to compete again in 3-5 years.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I've called the core out numerous times. I just realize we're married to this core, and moving one or multiple of the Big Three results in a 3-5 year period of heavy rebuild before we can even begin to think of competing again. But, I'm not against that, because this team cannot undo the issues plaguing it in time to take another run at a Cup before Geno and Letang are gone in two years anyway.

I just think it's f***ing crazy for people to look at the construction of this team over the past several years and say "Hey, they're fine doing their jobs, it's Sid/Geno!" It's as asinine as the people who rip into a goalie for not stopping a breakaway. "You just gotta make the save regardless of the circumstances!" Again, Sid and Geno are old. They can't do what MacKinnon or McDavid do anymore. They need legitimate support, not a bunch of vanilla, do-nothing players who put up decent enough stat lines during the regular season to fool people into thinking they're any good. Sid and Geno need more than a McCann 3rd line can give them. They need more than this blackhole of a 4th line can give them. They need someone on the blueline to be any kind of threat in transition or offensively. They need someone on the blueline outside of Marino to be capable of handling a forecheck without crumpling under the pressure and coughing up the puck.

They need a new GM and a new coach. And if that doesn't make a difference, then it was all for naught anyway, and this team simply is as bad as I've been saying, and they should sell everyone off and gear up to compete again in 3-5 years.

If you're at the point of firing both the coach and the GM, I think you should also be at the point of being willing to trade any player not named Crosby or Malkin. If you also support moving Letang, I'd understand supporting firing Sullivan and/or JR. But you have to go the full way for all people responsible there. The core has been just as big of a problem as JR and Sullivan has been, to save them while sacrificing JR and Sullivan makes it really seem like the core's performance is fine. If you're making that drastic of a change, you should be putting the core on notice by moving a big name too.

I'm not saying you do this, but I'm really bothered when I see the same people who say "we should fire Sullivan and JR" also say "we can't trade Hornqvist because he tries hard" or "we can't trade Rust because of how little he makes" or "we can't trade Letang because we won't win a deal". If you're going all the way of firing a coach and GM, nuke the hell out of this team. Just firing a coach and GM isn't going to change a thing if you are unwilling to make any substantial roster change.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If you're at the point of firing both the coach and the GM, I think you should also be at the point of being willing to trade any player not named Crosby or Malkin. If you also support moving Letang, I'd understand supporting firing Sullivan and/or JR. But you have to go the full way for all people responsible there. The core has been just as big of a problem as JR and Sullivan has been, to save them while sacrificing JR and Sullivan makes it really seem like the core's performance is fine. If you're making that drastic of a change, you should be putting the core on notice by moving a big name too.

I'd trade anyone not named Sid, and that's because Sid is the Pittsburgh Penguins, and I think he'll be an effective player for several more years--even if he has to transition to a depth centerman. I've been saying I'm entirely in favor of blowing it up since the Habs booted us. I just don't think we'll gain any ground toward the "One more Cup" goal by moving any of the big three. Between NTC situations, the fact that they're old now, and the fact that they make a ton of money just kills any chance you're getting assets back that help you within the next several years. At best, you deal those guys and hope for 1sts and great prospects from a team that's in the position we've been in for years--win now, at all costs, f*** the future.

But honestly, does it really matter if we get past Montreal? Geno finding the back of the net on one of his like 30 shots helps a ton. A different coach who simply doesn't play JJ-Schultz probably is enough to get us into the 1st round, but who gives a shit? People would rather watch us get slaughtered in 4 games by the Flyers, Caps, Islanders, Bruins, or whoever else we play? This team is so far away from being a legit contender. I'm glad we lost to the Habs. At least we've got the #15 pick to work with now, as opposed to the ~20th or whatever.

This team is no different than the broken team we had in place following the departures (and years of failures) from Shero and Bylsma. It isn't. It's a solid enough foundation of 5 guys or so, surrounded by a terrible supporting cast, with a GM that's lost the plot and a coach that no longer has the attention of the room and overplays horrible players (JJ/Schultz -- Glass/Adams/Scuderi). How is this situation any different from the team left behind by those guys? I mean, aside from the fact that the core is 33/34 as opposed to 26/27, and we're now staring down a 2-year deadline before Geno and Letang are likely done as NHLers.

 

[Turin]

How do we get Gaudreau

 

[HandshakeLine]

I mean, why does it have to be one side or the other? Both players and coaches/FO deserve some all the blame.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

How do we get Gaudreau

Would think it takes Zucker

 

[HandshakeLine]

Also, not to be a broken record, but did the organization ever address the media after the loss? I don't remember any posting any comments, and it's weird how nobody in the PGH hockey media wanted to talk about firing all the assistant coaches.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I mean, why does it have to be one side or the other? Both players and coaches/FO deserve some all the blame.

My issue is more with people simultaneously saying "we should fire JR and Sullivan" while also saying "we can't trade Hornqvist because he tries" or "we can't trade Letang because we won't win that trade". If you're going all in to the point of firing JR and Sullivan, there should be no one outside of Crosby and Malkin that are off-limits. Refusing to trade even supporting cast pieces like Hornqvist while firing the GM and coach just screams "scapegoating the GM and coach" to me.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a good housecleaning of all except the big two, but there's some practical considerations for firing a coach vs. trading players, even when both are at fault.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

My issue is more with people simultaneously saying "we should fire JR and Sullivan" while also saying "we can't trade Hornqvist because he tries" or "we can't trade Letang because we won't win that trade". If you're going all in to the point of firing JR and Sullivan, there should be no one outside of Crosby and Malkin that are off-limits. Refusing to trade even supporting cast pieces like Hornqvist while firing the GM and coach just screams "scapegoating the GM and coach" to me.

I've been saying Hornqvist should be a candidate to move for a year. I'm fine moving Letang, though I don't think you can remove that player from this blueline and still hope to compete. I'm fine moving anyone but Sid, Geno, Jake, Marino and maybe Jarry. I do think Geno would want out if we went full fire sale though. I don't think Sid would.

If you want to compete before the era is over, and you realize things are broken and changes need to be made, you fire the GM and the coach and hope the new eyes/voices can sort things out. If you don't think things can be salvaged, you fire the GM and coach, and clean house roster-wise. I'm in the latter category.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I just don't see how removing the GM and coach moves this team further away from competing than moving a guy like Letang off of this blueline does. Again, I'm all for going nuclear, but I genuinely don't think this ship can be salvaged in time to make another run in the next two seasons. Even if JR and Sully pull their heads out of their asses and go about the miraculous 180 it'd take, and JR removes all the ineffective/deadweight guys like JJ, Bjugs, and arguably Hornqvist, and the additions we get to fill out the roster work without a hitch right off the bat, we're still looking at a solid calendar year of moves. In reality, as has been the case for JR's previous several years, many of the moves will probably backfire and we'll be closer to treading water than making any headway.

I just don't see a way, realistically, where all that needs to happen will happen in the next two seasons. We can try, but the odds aren't good and we'll only be putting off rebuilding in vain, imo.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

You're scapegoating the GM and coach for the failures of the core while acting like the core has done nothing wrong.

I think you're just fundamentally wrong on what caused the Penguins to lose in the playoffs. They didn't lose in the playoffs because their "blueline is in shambles". They didn't lose because their "depth sucks". They lost because the guys who are paid to produce didn't produce. You seem like you're going out of your way to come up with excuses for the core, like saying "Sid and Geno are old", while hammering JR on literally any mistake he made.

If guys like Malkin, Rust, Letang and such would have shown up on the scoreboard this year, the Penguins would probably still be playing right now. This isn't a situation where the core did their jobs but the rest of the team failed, this was completely a failure of the core. Acting like anything otherwise is just scapegoating people you want to scapegoat.

The core's underlying numbers the last 2 years are just fine.

The PP sucks, JJ sucks, and we've played teams with exceptional defensive coaches the last 2 years.

Fewer goals for, more goals against, losses pile up.

Voila.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The core's underlying numbers the last 2 years are just fine.

The PP sucks, JJ sucks, and we've played teams with exceptional defensive coaches the last 2 years.

Fewer goals for, more goals against, losses pile up.

Voila.

Eh, I don't agree whatsoever. Everyone's offensive numbers have been shit since the Caps series. Top to bottom, unacceptable production from the big names. That being said, we're not in a position to really help them do their thing either. The blueline's a trashcan that has fits against speed and aggressive play, which neuters our transition game--and thus, offense. Our depth beyond the 2nd line is nonexistent. Nobody, for the past couple of years, poses any sort of threat to the opposition. The Isles and Habs' job was easy--shadow the shit out of Sid and Geno and dare the Penguins' depth to beat you. Uh oh, we have no depth to speak of, guess we're laughed out of the arena again.

 

[Geno Bingo]

Sully has put JR in bad spots already, you can't side with your coach and then keep the player as well, which is why Cole had to go, a fantastic player on the Pens, struggled that year, but he was turning it around. Pens have been trying to replace Cole since. Oleksiak? Miscast and misused, oddly enough when he was moved, Ken Hitchcock literally came out and said he regretted the way he tried to develop and play Oleksiak in his off side, what does Sullivan & Co do? Play him on his off side and try to make him a Cole type of player (when Oleksiak kept showing his PMD skills, they seemed to punish him for it)

THIS

I could never understand why these guys were underutilised or misused to the point they were forced out of the lineup and then moved for nothing. Our back end has dropped off of a cliff since the cup runs and whilst some players either aged out or moved on like Daley and Hainsey or fell off like Schultz and Matta. I could never understand getting rid of Cole and then not utlising Oleksiak correctly when we brought him in later.

I think a back end of:

Letang Dumo
Oleksiak Cole
Marino Petts

Is a lot better than what we have now and not a bad cap hit either.

I'm for moving on from Sully over JR. I think he is a good coach but it looks like he has lost the room or at least can't get them up for a playoff series.

Would people be up for giving Gerard Gallant a look as a replacement? He likes fairly up tempo hockey which might mesh with JRs want to get younger and faster and he is more of a "players coach" which this core seems to need.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

Well, I was just going to say "I can't imagine Billy Guerin is content with the goalie situation in Minnesota", but then I realized they have Kaapo Kahkonen nearly ready...

That ruins my plan of acquiring Jordan Greenway.

That's good because Greenway is not good

 

[Peat]

Let's burn this sucker to the ground.

And miss the entertainment of leaving it standing?

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

That's good because Greenway is not good

He has a cool name though, we need more guys with cool names around.

 

[LOGiK]

Nobody else posted this?


WAT COULD IT BE??????


Pens’ Jim Rutherford announces trade is coming!

 

[Peat]

Nobody else posted this?


WAT COULD IT BE??????


Pens’ Jim Rutherford announces trade is coming!

The goalie trade article in the Athletic that's been talked here has been talked about/linked to in a couple of threads