PIT at SEA Sat Jan 25 EARLY @4 est

[Dipsy Doodle]

Pens mgmt made a lot of brilliant moves that made the Cups possible.

If drafting generational players was the only necessary part of the formula the McDavid era Oilers would have a few rings by now.

 

[HandshakeLine]

The last 12 or so months are the first time since Crosby's rookie year that the Pens are not actively trying to win. Ignore any lip service - Rutherford was trying to win until he quit, Hextall was trying to win, and Dubas was trying to win in his first year.

Should Sullivan be given his walking papers? Yes. Absolutely. It was time after last year.

But Jesus could be the coach of this team and even he would not be able to turn this current team into a contender. This was an inevitability after 20 years of going all out to win Cups.

Nobody is saying that, and lord knows I certainly wasn't.

Let me parse it out for those in the cheap seats: the reason we are the way we are is not because we had to be, but because various GMs built the team the coach wanted at prices they and management thought were acceptable.

Now, let's do a little thought experiment-- what happens if we have a GM and coach that, instead of going out and spending assets to trade for players like Kap that the coach soon sours on and benches or misuses like Brassard, we have a GM and a coach that promote youth from within. Do we win a third cup? Probably not, but we'd have a lot more assets left in the system, which would make the rebuild easier.

A lot of GMs made dumb moves, but the coaching staff was involved in nearly all of those since 2019, and there's only one constant in the coaching staff.

Pens mgmt made a lot of brilliant moves that made the Cups possible.

If drafting generational players was the only necessary part of the formula the McDavid era Oilers would have a few rings by now.

I mean, the really significant one for the B2Bs was mostly just Cullen and Kessel. And who got fleeced in the Kessel trade?

Like sure the ZZ-Cullen for Francis Samuelsson trade was a great one, but you can't really compare those pre-salary cap teams to anything since the lockout.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Yeah that’s my main point.

The Penguins since Shero have done an absolutely terrible job at player evaluation and drafting outside of the Phil Kessel trade.

That should be extremely worrisome especially given the fact our GM took one of the best young nucleus’s in the league and outputted one playoff round win.

Hagelin? Daley? Schultz? Hornqvist? Cullen? Bonino?

 

[DesertedPenguin]

So. The plan is to compete as quickly as possible, but the team is getting worse and worse every year under Dubas?

Can you understand where the skepticism comes from?

It's a pendulum swing. You have to go in one direction (being bad) to build the momentum to go back in the other direction (being good).

 

[Sideline]

Pens mgmt made a lot of brilliant moves that made the Cups possible.

If drafting generational players was the only necessary part of the formula the McDavid era Oilers would have a few rings by now.

Kessel for Kapanen and a pick, Daley for Scuderi, and Hagelin for Perron really were incredible deals.

 

[HandshakeLine]

The world is a binary system of winning and losing? Yes, if you're 5.

Kessel for Kapanen and a pick, Daley for Scuderi, and Hagelin for Perron really were incredible deals.

They were, but the Caps have made similar moves. Most teams have. We just happened to have two superstars (3 with Kessel) to take advantage of them.

I will say though, that Daley for Scuderi was my favorite simply because I hated Scuderi even when he won a Cup.

 

[Gurglesons]

Hagelin? Daley? Schultz? Hornqvist? Cullen? Bonino?

Acquiring depth pieces is something every cup winner does.

It's a pendulum swing. You have to go in one direction (being bad) to build the momentum to go back in the other direction (being good).

But, according to the GM the job is to pivot. We aren’t pivoting. We are getting terrible.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Yeah, and smart UFA signings are great, but man, this franchise has waaaaay more bad ones than good ones since 2005.

 

[SomeDude]

edit: nevermind

 

[DesertedPenguin]

What Dubas is describing is a very dumb plan. What teams are he referring to who "pivoted" and got back in contention? The Rags lucked into draft lottery winning (which is not a plan) and they already suck again. The Capitals did what Dubas dreamed he could do and that ship has sailed for us now. LA had 3 consecutive years of bottoming out. Boston have been paper and regular season tigers for like 5 years and now are staring down reality. So, who is he talking about? Tampa? They let the face of their franchise walk so they could sign the guy we just traded to help keep them competitive.

We have no pieces that are capable of making this a contending team again. The best way to get those is scorched earth. It's no guarantee you will get those kind of players, but you have better odds than just treading water as the 8th worst team in the league for a decade. Which is where Kyle's "plan" has us headed.

The Rangers are still an example because there is always some luck involved. If it's not winning the lottery, it's hitting on a player later in the draft who becomes something more than expected (Kris Letang, Jake Guentzel). You cannot win in sports without at least some luck.

The Capitals are an example that the Pens can still follow because they can still move on from Karlsson. And who knows what the future holds for Malkin after today's knee injury that did not look good at all. Regardless, the work done around Ovechkin can be a model for the Pens regardless of the status of their older stars.

Boston hasn't really tried to make a concerted effort toward anything post-Bergeron.

Florida is another example that I think Dubas will borrow from. If you can't bring in high first round picks naturally, then go out and get them in other ways. You need assets to do that - or lots of money - and I think we may start to see that in the spending this summer.

The key is all of these moves still take time. It's not prolonged like a full tear down, but it does take a couple of offseasons and trade deadlines.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Acquiring depth pieces is something every cup winner does.



But, according to the GM the job is to pivot. We aren’t pivoting. We are getting terrible.

You're conflating things. The pivot he repeatedly refers to is about what the Penguins are targeting and acquiring. The mindset for nearly two decades has been to buy proven NHL players, including some stars. Now it's to sell older NHL players and buy potential future ones, either in the form of young players who need a shake-up in their development (Tomasino), prospects (McGroarty, Koivunen, etc.), or draft picks.

 

[SomeDude]

The Rangers are still an example because there is always some luck involved. If it's not winning the lottery, it's hitting on a player later in the draft who becomes something more than expected (Kris Letang, Jake Guentzel). You cannot win in sports without at least some luck.

Hopefully we get lucky enough to have Pittsburgh become a top 3 city in the world for young millionaires so guys like Adam Fox will force their way here.

The Capitals are an example that the Pens can still follow because they can still move on from Karlsson. And who knows what the future holds for Malkin after today's knee injury that did not look good at all. Regardless, the work done around Ovechkin can be a model for the Pens regardless of the status of their older stars.

You are only fooling yourself if you think Dubas is capable of a Capitals style turnaround. If he trades Karlsson, he'll just use that space for another bad deal. This is based on the reality of what he's actually done here, not some fantasy where he becomes a great GM and magically starts hitting on 100% of his moves.

Boston hasn't really tried to make a concerted effort toward anything post-Bergeron.

Sounds like us.

Florida is another example that I think Dubas will borrow from. If you can't bring in high first round picks naturally, then go out and get them in other ways. You need assets to do that - or lots of money - and I think we may start to see that in the spending this summer.

Florida blew for like the majority of the 00's-10's. They built on lottery picks like Ekblad, Huberdeau, Barkov, etc. Maybe we'll also get lucky and PA will get rid of income tax and gain ocean front property.

The key is all of these moves still take time. It's not prolonged like a full tear down, but it does take a couple of offseasons and trade deadlines.

Cool. See you here in 5 years when we're in the same situation. Yes, Mike Sullivan will still be the coach.

 

[Gurglesons]

You're conflating things. The pivot he repeatedly refers to is about what the Penguins are targeting and acquiring. The mindset for nearly two decades has been to buy proven NHL players, including some stars. Now it's to sell older NHL players and buy potential future ones, either in the form of young players who need a shake-up in their development (Tomasino), prospects (McGroarty, Koivunen, etc.), or draft picks.

Well. Like I said he’s doing a terrible job at that. I’d also argue it’s a moronic move to make after you dropped multiple assets for EK65.

 

[Tender Rip]

If we do have a management where anyone in charge is worth anything, the objective now must be to try to get assets and shed cap while hoping to boost our lottery chances.
The season is over, obviously, and there isn’t even any mission critical need to sack Sully, as he is already as bad as can be, which now helps the new mission.
He still should be fired, of course, if only to have a bit of cosmic justice.

It is fantastic seeing this play out with Caps leading the league.

 

[BusinessGoose]

It is fantastic seeing this play out with Caps leading the league.

Definitely a bad feeling to know so many fans are reveling in our ineptitude lol

 

[Pancakes]

Hot take: While the Capitals look good now are they really set up for success long term? By avoiding bottoming out they're in a situation where they aren't going to restock with top 5 picks. They might be competitive with the new core they've built, but are they going to be contending for cups or just playoff spots?

The Pens meanwhile are headed to the gutter and fast which brings it with the potential bounty of lottery picks. Dubas might succeed despite his best efforts simply because of how bad we suck lol

 

[akapidots]

To me it is impossible to assess Dubas' work so far in terms of "trying to win" because of the coach. This team has no chance of competing no matter the roster because of Sully.

In terms of acquiring draft picks, prospects (via trade) and drafting I'm ok with Dubas so far. Graves and Jarry are huge problems but I could see the reasoning behind both signings at the moment those moves were made

 

[Gurglesons]

Hot take: While the Capitals look good now are they really set up for success long term? By avoiding bottoming out they're in a situation where they aren't going to restock with top 5 picks. They might be competitive with the new core they've built, but are they going to be contending for cups or just playoff spots?

The Pens meanwhile are headed to the gutter and fast which brings it with the potential bounty of lottery picks. Dubas might succeed despite his best efforts simply because of how bad we suck lol

They have Ryan Leonard, Miroshnichenko, and Cristall.

Their coaches have taken top 5 picks in PLD and Dylan Strome and turned them into effective players. Strome is 27. PLD is 26. Protas is 24 and has 20 and 20 in 48 games. McMichael is 25 and has 35 points in 48 games.

Their D core outside of Carlson is built around Chychrun, Sandin, and Fehervary who are 26, 24, and 25.

They acquired Logan Thompson for two thirds and he's been one of the best goalies in the league.

Penguins fans have a WHOOOOOOOLE lotta cope when it comes to the Caps. And most of the moves and players they've acquired in the draft making them this good were taken after our 1sts lol.

 

[Gurglesons]

To me it is impossible to assess Dubas' work so far in terms of "trying to win" because of the coach. This team has no chance of competing no matter the roster because of Sully.

In terms of acquiring draft picks, prospects (via trade) and drafting I'm ok with Dubas so far. Graves and Jarry are huge problems but I could see the reasoning behind both signings at the moment those moves were made

It's weird how Dubas can never be assessed because of Shanahan and now Sullivan.

At some point if he was the GM people think he is, he'd just make it work.

The league is littered with teams that took great advantage of Dubas.

LA had multiple assets. Carolina has Jarvis. Florida had Marchment. Etc.

There is no reason at all to have faith in this guy. He sucks at building competitive teams, he sucks at drafting, and he sucks at trades.

We got Phil Kessel and won two cups because of Dubas.

 

[SomeDude]

Hot take: While the Capitals look good now are they really set up for success long term? By avoiding bottoming out they're in a situation where they aren't going to restock with top 5 picks. They might be competitive with the new core they've built, but are they going to be contending for cups or just playoff spots?

The Pens meanwhile are headed to the gutter and fast which brings it with the potential bounty of lottery picks. Dubas might succeed despite his best efforts simply because of how bad we suck lol

Who knows how successful they will be, but they're not hurting long term. They've still got 2 legit blue chip prospects in Ryan Leonard and Ivan Miroshnichenko coming in the next 1-3 years. Cole Hutson looks to be on that path too. A lot of their key players are still in their mid-20's like Chychrun, Strome, Protas, PLD, Sandin. They have the best AHL organization in the league where they spend a ton of money to make sure their prospects come up in a winning environment.

It's going to take a few years before we can possibly get our prospect pool to their current level.

 

[Icarium]

I didn't watch the game because I am not a masochist but I see we slaughtered Disco Dan's losers in expected goals and high danger chances. I can't believe we lost a game like that, this has never happened before!?!

 

[Pancakes]

They have Ryan Leonard, Miroshnichenko, and Cristall.

Their coaches have taken top 5 picks in PLD and Dylan Strome and turned them into effective players. Strome is 27. PLD is 26. Protas is 24 and has 20 and 20 in 48 games. McMichael is 25 and has 35 points in 48 games.

Their D core outside of Carlson is built around Chychrun, Sandin, and Fehervary who are 26, 24, and 25.

They acquired Logan Thompson for two thirds and he's been one of the best goalies in the league.

Penguins fans have a WHOOOOOOOLE lotta cope when it comes to the Caps. And most of the moves and players they've acquired in the draft making them this good were taken after our 1sts lol.

Nah I don't give a shit if the Caps are good or not. We've out performed every single organization in the NHL since Sid has come into the league so even if we miss the playoffs for the next 10 years I'll be able to deal with it.

I actually hope Ovechkin breaks the goal record against the Pens this year. Him and Sid have been intertwined since they've come into the league so it would only be fitting.

I agree with you the Caps will be a competitive team for a while. I'm not sure if they have the core that wins cups. We'll see.

Who knows how successful they will be, but they're not hurting long term. They've still got 2 legit blue chip prospects in Ryan Leonard and Ivan Miroshnichenko coming in the next 1-3 years. Cole Hutson looks to be on that path too. A lot of their key players are still in their mid-20's like Chychrun, Strome, Protas, Sandin. They have the best AHL organization in the league where they spend a ton of money to make sure their prospects come up in a winning environment.

It's going to take a few years before we can possibly get our prospect pool to their current level.

Agreed. They'll be competitive for a while. I just wonder if rebuilding without getting lottery picks is going to cost them a chance to become a Chicago/Pittsburgh/Tampa/Washington(Ovechkin-era) team that can consider itself truly elite.

They might thrust themselves into a situation where they make the playoffs for a number of years but don't get cups out of it. Like a Minnesota scenario.

We'll see though.

 

[HandshakeLine]

To me it is impossible to assess Dubas' work so far in terms of "trying to win" because of the coach. This team has no chance of competing no matter the roster because of Sully.

In terms of acquiring draft picks, prospects (via trade) and drafting I'm ok with Dubas so far. Graves and Jarry are huge problems but I could see the reasoning behind both signings at the moment those moves were made

Dubas can fire Sully, he just doesn’t want to. That’s on him.

 

[SomeDude]

Agreed. They'll be competitive for a while. I just wonder if rebuilding without getting lottery picks is going to cost them a chance to become a Chicago/Pittsburgh/Tampa/Washington(Ovechkin-era) team that can consider itself truly elite.

They might thrust themselves into a situation where they make the playoffs for a number of years but don't get cups out of it. Like a Minnesota scenario.

We'll see though.

They’re leading the NHL right now so that’s pretty elite.

I get what you’re saying but they’re doing it now with no real elite players. Ovi is still good, but he’s not elite. Same with Carlsson. They’re getting these results with these players. It seems a lot more plausible to find a suitable replacement for 38 year old Ovechkin than when he was 25 years old.

 

[Gurglesons]

Nah I don't give a shit if the Caps are good or not. We've out performed every single organization in the NHL since Sid has come into the league so even if we miss the playoffs for the next 10 years I'll be able to deal with it.

I actually hope Ovechkin breaks the goal record against the Pens this year. Him and Sid have been intertwined since they've come into the league so it would only be fitting.

I agree with you the Caps will be a competitive team for a while. I'm not sure if they have the core that wins cups. We'll see.

I want to win more Cups.