GDT: PIT at SEA Sat Jan 25 EARLY @4 est

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Dubas hasn't been good. He's made solid moves, but whiffed on every big decision he's made imo.

I was super in favor of EK; trade was a failure because we didn't factor in the coach/system killing anything positive EK can bring.

I was in favor of Graves to replace Dumo; swing and a miss.

Hated, reviled the Jarry signing; it's somehow even worse than my pessimistic ass thought it would be.

Held on to Jake throughout the year when it was clear he should've been dealt the summer prior to his last season with the team, once negotiations stagnated and it was clear neither side was gonna budge. I still think Jake's camp sabotaged things by making it known he wouldn't seriously negotiate in-season with anybody and he was intent on getting that colossal deal that closed out his career. We've all talked about the Jake deal ad nauseum so whatever.

This incessant need to keep Sullivan around. I don't know if it's a mandate from FSG--though I doubt it because of how embarrassingly publicly they threw themselves prostrate at Dubas' feet once he became available. I don't know if it's a situation where Sid loves Sullivan and it's a "don't piss Sid off" scenario where everyone knows it's time to move on but they can't because of the franchise legend. I don't know if it's a situation where Dubas is enamored with Sullivan's ability to navigate one-on-one interviews with bullshit corpo-speak. I think it's probably a healthy mix of the latter two, tbh. But Sullivan's like bleach, his presence just kills everything.

Dubas is just Hextall 2.0. A doofus. But I stopped really giving a shit about the here and now of this team years ago, so I'll hold judgement on Dubas until we see what happens with the post-Sid years. Not optimistic, but he can get a good start by growing the spine he needs to fire Sullivan, trade what isn't nailed down, and settle in for a good handful of top-5 picks while the organization builds back up via draft. Again, not optimistic, the dude doesn't seem like he's got the guts to tear things down, let alone do the easiest thing of all; fire the coach.

 

[Pancakes]

Dubas hasn't been good. He's made solid moves, but whiffed on every big decision he's made imo.

I was super in favor of EK; trade was a failure because we didn't factor in the coach/system killing anything positive EK can bring.

I was in favor of Graves to replace Dumo; swing and a miss.

Hated, reviled the Jarry signing; it's somehow even worse than my pessimistic ass thought it would be.

Held on to Jake throughout the year when it was clear he should've been dealt the summer prior to his last season with the team, once negotiations stagnated and it was clear neither side was gonna budge. I still think Jake's camp sabotaged things by making it known he wouldn't seriously negotiate in-season with anybody and he was intent on getting that colossal deal that closed out his career. We've all talked about the Jake deal ad nauseum so whatever.

This incessant need to keep Sullivan around. I don't know if it's a mandate from FSG--though I doubt it because of how embarrassingly publicly they threw themselves prostrate at Dubas' feet once he became available. I don't know if it's a situation where Sid loves Sullivan and it's a "don't piss Sid off" scenario where everyone knows it's time to move on but they can't because of the franchise legend. I don't know if it's a situation where Dubas is enamored with Sullivan's ability to navigate one-on-one interviews with bullshit corpo-speak. I think it's probably a healthy mix of the latter two, tbh. But Sullivan's like bleach, his presence just kills everything.

Dubas is just Hextall 2.0. A doofus. But I stopped really giving a shit about the here and now of this team years ago, so I'll hold judgement on Dubas until we see what happens with the post-Sid years. Not optimistic, but he can get a good start by growing the spine he needs to fire Sullivan, trade what isn't nailed down, and settle in for a good handful of top-5 picks while the organization builds back up via draft. Again, not optimistic, the dude doesn't seem like he's got the guts to tear things down, let alone do the easiest thing of all; fire the coach.

This is the reasonable approach to take imo. Enjoy whatever small victories the core gets with their remaining time here and then see if Dubas can right the ship moving forward. We're stuck with him either way.

 

[sovietsanta87]

“The capitals have always been a better run organization than the penguins” is a helluva take considering the penguins have five cups vs capitals one and the penguins are 9-2 vs Washington in the postseason.

 

[Gurglesons]

“The capitals have always been a better run organization than the penguins” is a helluva take considering the penguins have five cups vs capitals one and the penguins are 9-2 vs Washington in the postseason.

Capitals have never had the level of talent we have had.

 

[Gurglesons]

Sure it does. The Caps haven’t been an aggressive contender outside of a handful of years, the year they won was basically a fluke that took the GM and coach by surprise. The GM said in 2017 that it was their last year of their window. The Caps weren’t real contenders after that until maybe now, and everybody knew it. The Pens for spent and tried to be true contenders until 2023.

So you’re proving my point with this? Their management understood the spot they were in and made appropriate moves while our management has had no clue what they are or doing for nearly 7?

 

[eXile3]

“The capitals have always been a better run organization than the penguins” is a helluva take considering the penguins have five cups vs capitals one and the penguins are 9-2 vs Washington in the postseason.

Yeah always is a stretch. They are currently a better run organization and have been for the last several years.

But to be fair we’re a pretty bad run organization at the moment.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

This is the reasonable approach to take imo. Enjoy whatever small victories the core gets with their remaining time here and then see if Dubas can right the ship moving forward. We're stuck with him either way.

Sure, Sullivan's an egomaniac who would willingly torpedo a good thing to try and prove he was correct. Yeah, Dubas is Hextall 2.0 and that sucks shit.

But the real issue is that FSG is a complete loser ownership group who doesn't even seem to know they paid a billion for a hockey franchise. Probably because they didn't care about anything beyond hoarding another ~thing~ like billionaires are wont to do.

FSG is the real elephant in the room. And unlike a coach, or GM, a fanbase is stuck with an ownership group until the ownership group wants to sell, or is forced to. Coaches come and go (well, normally, not in Pittsburgh aparently), and GMs too. But we might be stuck with FSG for a couple of decades and that sucks absolute shit. Like Tanner Glass-level sucks.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Surprisingly, the goalie doesn't matter when the team gives up 15 chances and scores 2 or less goals a game.

 

[Gurglesons]

Surprisingly, the goalie doesn't matter when the team gives up 15 chances and scores 2 or less goals a game.

We’ve gotten to the 3rd period and had a chance. Which Jarry wasn’t giving us.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Jarry's last two games in the AHL btw.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Sid should just retire and get it over with IMO

 

[Pancakes]

View attachment 967236
Jarry's last two games in the AHL btw.

He gave up a goal on the first shot in at least one of those games

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

This is the lamest loser take of all time.

The Capitals didn’t get bailed out. Backstrom was an effective player until last year. So was Oshie.

The Capitals are better than the Penguins because their management is and always has been better than the Penguins.

That is why they are having success and we are not. They have made tough decisions and smart moves while we’ve been loyal to losers like Jeff Carter, Mike Sullivan, etc.

Hextall and Dubas have destroyed this team, but the idea that Dubas couldn’t have pivoted in his first year while having 20+ mil to play with and allocating it to Reilly Smith, Ryan Graves, Tristan Jarry and Erik Karlsson because he had Letang Crosby and Malkin is the biggest joke ever.

The destruction really started with Rutherford. Washington mostly held onto their high picks so have guys like McMichael, Fehervary, Protas they developed, with guys like Leonard and Hutson on the way. Or they made savvy trades for guys like Chychrun and Sandin.

Meanwhile, pens traded a 2017 1st for Reaves, 2018 1st for Brassard, 2020 1st for Kapanen, 2021 1st for Zucker. Pretty much a whole generation of talent thrown away for crap.

Rutherford, Hextall, Dubas, and Sullivan all have played their part in this mess. It's too late at this point to salvage, they need to blow it up.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It started with Rutherford, sure, but multiple GMs have missed chances to get value for soon-to-be UFAs and have spent assets on terrible returns. There's got to be some other constant there, but I'll be damned if I can't put my finger on it.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

It started with Rutherford, sure, but multiple GMs have missed chances to get value for soon-to-be UFAs and have spent assets on terrible returns. There's got to be some other constant there, but I'll be damned if I can't put my finger on it.

The last 12 or so months are the first time since Crosby's rookie year that the Pens are not actively trying to win. Ignore any lip service - Rutherford was trying to win until he quit, Hextall was trying to win, and Dubas was trying to win in his first year.

Should Sullivan be given his walking papers? Yes. Absolutely. It was time after last year.

But Jesus could be the coach of this team and even he would not be able to turn this current team into a contender. This was an inevitability after 20 years of going all out to win Cups.

 

[Gurglesons]

The destruction really started with Rutherford. Washington mostly held onto their high picks so have guys like McMichael, Fehervary, Protas they developed, with guys like Leonard and Hutson on the way. Or they made savvy trades for guys like Chychrun and Sandin.

Meanwhile, pens traded a 2017 1st for Reaves, 2018 1st for Brassard, 2020 1st for Kapanen, 2021 1st for Zucker. Pretty much a whole generation of talent thrown away for crap.

Rutherford, Hextall, Dubas, and Sullivan all have played their part in this mess. It's too late at this point to salvage, they need to blow it up.

Yes. But like Dubas was hired to turn this around or deliver us a future.

He’s done nothing. The team is somehow in a worse spot than they were two years ago.

The last 12 or so months are the first time since Crosby's rookie year that the Pens are not actively trying to win. Ignore any lip service - Rutherford was trying to win until he quit, Hextall was trying to win, and Dubas was trying to win in his first year.

Should Sullivan be given his walking papers? Yes. Absolutely. It was time after last year.

But Jesus could be the coach of this team and even he would not be able to turn this current team into a contender. This was an inevitability after 20 years of going all out to win Cups.

Then what are we trying to do? Because player evaluation matters and what we’ve done this summer heading into the season was an absolute joke from the standpoint of bringing in players that we could actively flip for a return.

 

[SomeDude]

Meh. Acciari and Nieto are way worse and are the ones who should be out of the lineup first in favor of young players.

2 more Dubas supplied toys. If you're not going to fire the coach, at least stop giving him crappy vets to play over anyone under the age of 28.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Then what are we trying to do? Because player evaluation matters and what we’ve done this summer heading into the season was an absolute joke from the standpoint of bringing in players that we could actively flip for a return.

Who was out there as a free agent in the summer who would have signed a one-year deal who could be flipped for a return? Grzlyeck will get a return. Beauvillier will get a marginal return. Pettersson will fetch a decent return, and so will DOC.

None of the players on Chris Johnston's trade board were UFAs last summer. They're all expiring long-term or moderate-term contracts, or they still have term:

NHL trade board 4.0: New targets emerge in the calm before the storm

Nine new names enter our watch list, including a few top-of-lineup players.

www.nytimes.com

Should the Penguins have wasted assets to acquire one of them in the summer in the hopes of getting back more at the deadline? I can hear you complaining now if the Pens had acquired Cody Ceci or Brandon Tanev.

Dubas added two second round picks, a third, and a fifth with the Hayes, Glass, and Smith deals in the summer. He added a third and fifth with the Eller deal.

He deserves criticism for his first offseason, but everything else has been the right steps forward to either take on a contract to acquire additional assets or move out players for assets.

 

[Gurglesons]

Who was out there as a free agent in the summer who would have signed a one-year deal who could be flipped for a return? Grzlyeck will get a return. Beauvillier will get a marginal return. Pettersson will fetch a decent return, and so will DOC.

None of the players on Chris Johnston's trade board were UFAs last summer. They're all expiring long-term or moderate-term contracts, or they still have term:

NHL trade board 4.0: New targets emerge in the calm before the storm

Nine new names enter our watch list, including a few top-of-lineup players.

www.nytimes.com

Should the Penguins have wasted assets to acquire one of them in the summer in the hopes of getting back more at the deadline? I can hear you complaining now if the Pens had acquired Cody Ceci or Brandon Tanev.

Dubas added two second round picks, a third, and a fifth with the Hayes, Glass, and Smith deals in the summer. He added a third and fifth with the Eller deal.

He deserves criticism for his first offseason, but everything else has been the right steps forward to either take on a contract to acquire additional assets or move out players for assets.

So we are in a rebuild, but Dubas won’t admit it?

Loser vibes. Glad we got Chayka 2.0. Can’t wait to be in that mindset for the next 5 seasons.

Much like Mike Sullivan you’ll grasp reality three years late.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

So we are in a rebuild, but Dubas won’t admit it?

Loser vibes. Glad we got Chayka 2.0. Can’t wait to be in that mindset for the next 5 seasons.

Much like Mike Sullivan you’ll grasp reality three years late.

He's been pretty clear. If you want to complain he hasn't specifically said the word rebuild, have at it. But his comments over the last year have made it clear.

“I understand looking at it people say, ‘Well, it’s not clear one way or the other.’ But to me it is,” he said of the team’s direction. “Last year in the summer, we tried to jump-start it in free agency and in trades. We ended up missing [the playoffs]. So now we need to begin to pivot away from the way we’ve gone about it.”

“For me, [it’s] looking beyond just one season. I wouldn’t deem it a success if we got into the playoffs next year by a point,” he said. “We want to get back to being a contender. The coaches and the players have to look at it day to day; they’re trying to win every day. I have to look at it with a much broader lens.”

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/penguins/2024/06/28/kyle-dubas-penguins-free-agency-sidney-crosby-nhl-draft/stories/202406250129

Dubas: "When people say the want a rebuild, what they really want is a full-on, scorched Earth ... My view of it is there are more examples of teams that were contending when this team contended that have pivoted (quickly and became contenders again)."



He reiterated the plan again a month ago:
“Even in my job now and coming into it, Pittsburgh, the key to us has been, ‘Can we build it back into contention in the long run?’ ” Dubas said. “So — more so than even, ‘Can we be a playoff team?’ — the focus is on, ‘What do we have to do to get ourselves back into contention?’ ”

“The coaches and players, it’s on the day to day. They’re trying to win the day,” Dubas said. “Obviously, in management, we’re trying to set the environment that enables them to do so while at the same time building the organization into a spot where it can contend every single year again.”

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/penguins/2024/12/24/dubas-tomasino-trades-nhl-free-agency-sullivan-crosby-malkin/stories/202412200146

I get that some fans want a complete tear down, trade everyone - including the Hall of Famers - type rebuild. That's fine. But I think the plan is pretty clear and has been stated multiple times over the last year.

 

[HandshakeLine]

“The capitals have always been a better run organization than the penguins” is a helluva take considering the penguins have five cups vs capitals one and the penguins are 9-2 vs Washington in the postseason.

Devil's advocate: the Pens have 5 cups because we had 3 of the top 10 ever to play the game plus a cast of players that caught fire at the right time. There have been smart moves, but also lots and lots of self-inflicted damage.

 

[Gurglesons]

He's been pretty clear. If you want to complain he hasn't specifically said the word rebuild, have at it. But his comments over the last year have made it clear.

“I understand looking at it people say, ‘Well, it’s not clear one way or the other.’ But to me it is,” he said of the team’s direction. “Last year in the summer, we tried to jump-start it in free agency and in trades. We ended up missing [the playoffs]. So now we need to begin to pivot away from the way we’ve gone about it.”

“For me, [it’s] looking beyond just one season. I wouldn’t deem it a success if we got into the playoffs next year by a point,” he said. “We want to get back to being a contender. The coaches and the players have to look at it day to day; they’re trying to win every day. I have to look at it with a much broader lens.”

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/penguins/2024/06/28/kyle-dubas-penguins-free-agency-sidney-crosby-nhl-draft/stories/202406250129

Dubas: "When people say the want a rebuild, what they really want is a full-on, scorched Earth ... My view of it is there are more examples of teams that were contending when this team contended that have pivoted (quickly and became contenders again)."



He reiterated the plan again a month ago:
“Even in my job now and coming into it, Pittsburgh, the key to us has been, ‘Can we build it back into contention in the long run?’ ” Dubas said. “So — more so than even, ‘Can we be a playoff team?’ — the focus is on, ‘What do we have to do to get ourselves back into contention?’ ”

“The coaches and players, it’s on the day to day. They’re trying to win the day,” Dubas said. “Obviously, in management, we’re trying to set the environment that enables them to do so while at the same time building the organization into a spot where it can contend every single year again.”

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/penguins/2024/12/24/dubas-tomasino-trades-nhl-free-agency-sullivan-crosby-malkin/stories/202412200146

I get that some fans want a complete tear down, trade everyone - including the Hall of Famers - type rebuild. That's fine. But I think the plan is pretty clear and has been stated multiple times over the last year.

So. The plan is to compete as quickly as possible, but the team is getting worse and worse every year under Dubas?

Can you understand where the skepticism comes from?

 

[HandshakeLine]

The plan being "clear" (again debatable) has no relevance on whether or not the plan is viable. HTH.

 

[SomeDude]

I get that some fans want a complete tear down, trade everyone - including the Hall of Famers - type rebuild. That's fine. But I think the plan is pretty clear and has been stated multiple times over the last year.

What Dubas is describing is a very dumb plan. What teams are he referring to who "pivoted" and got back in contention? The Rags lucked into draft lottery winning (which is not a plan) and they already suck again. The Capitals did what Dubas dreamed he could do and that ship has sailed for us now. LA had 3 consecutive years of bottoming out. Boston have been paper and regular season tigers for like 5 years and now are staring down reality. So, who is he talking about? Tampa? They let the face of their franchise walk so they could sign the guy we just traded to help keep them competitive.

We have no pieces that are capable of making this a contending team again. The best way to get those is scorched earth. It's no guarantee you will get those kind of players, but you have better odds than just treading water as the 8th worst team in the league for a decade. Which is where Kyle's "plan" has us headed.

 

[Gurglesons]

Devil's advocate: the Pens have 5 cups because we had 3 of the top 10 ever to play the game plus a cast of players that caught fire at the right time. There have been smart moves, but also lots and lots of self-inflicted damage.

Yeah that’s my main point.

The Penguins since Shero have done an absolutely terrible job at player evaluation and drafting outside of the Phil Kessel trade.

That should be extremely worrisome especially given the fact our GM took one of the best young nucleus’s in the league and outputted one playoff round win.