OT: Pirates Talk: That Skenes guy is okay at teh baseball

[Empoleon8771]

Absolute garbage fire of an organization.

I like Horwitz but what is this team doing? They're already hamstrung by Nutting and you can't take unnecessary gambles like this.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

There are almost no words for how stupid and bad this makes them look. I don't want to just bash Horowitz, but this is a guy who was already kind of fringy given his age, position, and what else be brings to the table given both of those things. The best case scenario with him was that he'd give you an above average wRC+ for dirt cheap over 3 seasons or so at the top of the order with the power needing to be found elsewhere in the lineup.

This injury throws that into question and makes the already farcical offseason somehow look even worse. I am genuinely and honestly at a loss for words.... things were already awful, beyond bad, laughable, even by the Pirates' own already bad standards, and now this?

The only way I can really see to save some face in this situation is simply to fire Cherington into the sun right now, in an unprecedented way in February or March right before the season (it would never happen), which would at least given the replacement cover for the bad season that is about to take place. The scenario is just so absurd on the face of it that I genuinely feel like I am crazy to type it out for the umpteenth time this winter (along with everybody else): we got handed a literal cheat code, playoff series winner at the impossible position for any team regardless of budget size, and we just didn't do absolutely nothing.

It's more likely than not that the driving reason is that Bob Nutting didn't want to spend any more money on the team. But if that's not true in even a half-assed way -- i.e., Nutting would have been ok taking the "risk" to up the payroll by a lousy 15-20M -- then the only conceivable "good" outcome here is to scapegoat this pathetic loser of a GM. He is worse than Dave Littlefield.

 

[Empoleon8771]

There are almost no words for how stupid and bad this makes them look. I don't want to just bash Horowitz, but this is a guy who was already kind of fringy given his age, position, and what else be brings to the table given both of those things. The best case scenario with him was that he'd give you an above average wRC+ for dirt cheap over 3 seasons or so at the top of the order with the power needing to be found elsewhere in the lineup.

This injury throws that into question and makes the already farcical offseason somehow look even worse. I am genuinely and honestly at a loss for words.... things were already awful, beyond bad, laughable, even by the Pirates' own already bad standards, and now this?

The only way I can really see to save some face in this situation is simply to fire Cherington into the sun right now, in an unprecedented way in February or March right before the season (it would never happen), which would at least given the replacement cover for the bad season that is about to take place. The scenario is just so absurd on the face of it that I genuinely feel like I am crazy to type it out for the umpteenth time this winter (along with everybody else): we got handed a literal cheat code, playoff series winner at the impossible position for any team regardless of budget size, and we just didn't do absolutely nothing.

It's more likely than not that the driving reason is that Bob Nutting didn't want to spend any more money on the team. But if that's not true in even a half-assed way -- i.e., Nutting would have been ok taking the "risk" to up the payroll by a lousy 15-20M -- then the only conceivable "good" outcome here is to scapegoat this pathetic loser of a GM. He is worse than Dave Littlefield.

Yeah I've been adamant about liking Horwitz and have been vocal that he's a guy I like that they acquired. That said, even I'm in a position where I find this indefensible. With the constraints Nutting puts on the budget, they simply need to be smart with their assets and not take unnecessary risks. Knowing that Horwitz had a bum wrist at the time of the trade makes trading for him (or at least not bringing in another guy) inexcusable.

You could already argue that they overpaid for him in the first place, but paying what they did while they also knew he was having wrist issues? Inexcusable, and there's nothing else you can say but Cherington looks like an absolute moron for it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

 

[Fogel]

If the Pirates were fine with some injury risk, there were other players they could have targeted with injury risk and equal or higher upside, particularly on some 1 or 2 year deals that they ended up with.

 

[ImporterExporter]

And yet people will still go to games, still spend $2-300 or more on a trip to PNC with the kids, because it's "fun".

The only way this stops is to stop spending a dime on the Bucs. There is no other way. You can cry about how impossible it is, but that's the reality. Empty PNC, significantly less income on merch and other Bucs related material for Nutting is the only prayer we have as a fanbase.

Until people stop being internet crybabies and actually invest in not giving this franchise one moment of you time and more importantly, money, the charade will continue.

Manfred spoke recently about the fans anger, so it's on the radar of MLB. The next step and the biggest hurdle is to damage the cash flow of a penny pinching team like Nutting's Bucs. Yeah, revenue sharing gives them a nice cushion, but you cannot ignore an empty ballpark. Visuals matter.

Until people actually put up an effort, instead of just bitching, we'll be going in circles.

 

[BillyOcean]

This is not a serious organization and people who spend their time watching them are fools

 

[bigdaddyk88]

I would have taken Marte paid down and a few prospects over pham.
Reading that haynes back may never be 100 percent is crazy

 

[Factorial]

This is not a serious organization and people who spend their time watching them are fools

53 year fan. I'm watching.

 

[TNT87]

Just when I thought I couldn't loathe this joke of a franchise even more.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

And yet people will still go to games, still spend $2-300 or more on a trip to PNC with the kids, because it's "fun".

The only way this stops is to stop spending a dime on the Bucs. There is no other way. You can cry about how impossible it is, but that's the reality. Empty PNC, significantly less income on merch and other Bucs related material for Nutting is the only prayer we have as a fanbase.

Until people stop being internet crybabies and actually invest in not giving this franchise one moment of you time and more importantly, money, the charade will continue.

Manfred spoke recently about the fans anger, so it's on the radar of MLB. The next step and the biggest hurdle is to damage the cash flow of a penny pinching team like Nutting's Bucs. Yeah, revenue sharing gives them a nice cushion, but you cannot ignore an empty ballpark. Visuals matter.

Until people actually put up an effort, instead of just bitching, we'll be going in circles.

Howd that work out for Oakland?

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I've never fully understood where the idea that fans can somehow spur change comes from. Fans are a completely shapeless mass, not really any kind of collective group that could try to generate any leverage. There's a vague sense that bad ticket sales would hurt the team, but that is pretty greatly mitigated with how MLB's financials are set up and ticket sales have been bad for a long time. The only true impact is if the team starts winning a lot, then we'll see bigger crowds. Otherwise, it will be about the same.

I understand the "people who spend their time watching the team are fools" (I'm not gonna quote a troll, who doesn't seem to frequent the thread) idea even less.... by virtue of the exact same "logic" (I hesitate to use this word), it's even more foolish to spend your time commenting on the people who you think are spending their time in a foolish way....

I would assume this holds true for other thread regulars as well. I like baseball more than all other sports. I spend a ton of time following the Pirates because I grew up in Pittsburgh. For better or worse, that's just how it is. I also spend a lot of time following the rest of the league. Seems like an empty comment to make it about more than that, i.e., what people have as their hobbies.

 

[cookthebooks]

fans dont matter a bit, the only way things would change would be if enough owners got fed up at the nuttings. seems about as likely as getting hit by a comet

 

[Empoleon8771]

At this point, I just don't even see a point in complaining about Nutting. He's just a constant handicap that this team will have to build in spite of. Everyone knows he sucks but it's beating a dead horse at this point.

I've firmly come around to Cherington just being a bad GM at this point, though. The Horwitz injury situation, which I'm now fully expecting will absolutely tank his production, was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. This team simply cannot be making moves with glaring red flags like that, especially considering what Cherington paid for him. Cherington's player evaluation legitimately seems to be "let's reacquire anyone I'm familiar with from Toronto".

Has Cherington even made a good trade with adding MLB talent? It's still TBD with Horwitz even with the mess right now, but De La Cruz was horrendous and IKF was a dud too.

 

[MrBrightside]

At this point, I just don't even see a point in complaining about Nutting. He's just a constant handicap that this team will have to build in spite of. Everyone knows he sucks but it's beating a dead horse at this point.

I've firmly come around to Cherington just being a bad GM at this point, though. The Horwitz injury situation, which I'm now fully expecting will absolutely tank his production, was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. This team simply cannot be making moves with glaring red flags like that, especially considering what Cherington paid for him. Cherington's player evaluation legitimately seems to be "let's reacquire anyone I'm familiar with from Toronto".

Has Cherington even made a good trade with adding MLB talent? It's still TBD with Horwitz even with the mess right now, but De La Cruz was horrendous and IKF was a dud too.

Joey Bart. About it.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I disagree completely. Fans pay for everything. Whether its on gameday, paywall, taxatuon, whatever. If enough people stop paying, shit changes.

The bottom line is money. And we pay for all of it.

Undisputed fact.

With that being said, I respect the other side of the coin. I just can't get on board with spending my money and time on a product that is designed to fail the paying customer.