OT: Pirates Talk: That Skenes guy is okay at teh baseball

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There are almost no words for how stupid and bad this makes them look. I don't want to just bash Horowitz, but this is a guy who was already kind of fringy given his age, position, and what else be brings to the table given both of those things. The best case scenario with him was that he'd give you an above average wRC+ for dirt cheap over 3 seasons or so at the top of the order with the power needing to be found elsewhere in the lineup.

This injury throws that into question and makes the already farcical offseason somehow look even worse. I am genuinely and honestly at a loss for words.... things were already awful, beyond bad, laughable, even by the Pirates' own already bad standards, and now this?

The only way I can really see to save some face in this situation is simply to fire Cherington into the sun right now, in an unprecedented way in February or March right before the season (it would never happen), which would at least given the replacement cover for the bad season that is about to take place. The scenario is just so absurd on the face of it that I genuinely feel like I am crazy to type it out for the umpteenth time this winter (along with everybody else): we got handed a literal cheat code, playoff series winner at the impossible position for any team regardless of budget size, and we just didn't do absolutely nothing.

It's more likely than not that the driving reason is that Bob Nutting didn't want to spend any more money on the team. But if that's not true in even a half-assed way -- i.e., Nutting would have been ok taking the "risk" to up the payroll by a lousy 15-20M -- then the only conceivable "good" outcome here is to scapegoat this pathetic loser of a GM. He is worse than Dave Littlefield.
 
There are almost no words for how stupid and bad this makes them look. I don't want to just bash Horowitz, but this is a guy who was already kind of fringy given his age, position, and what else be brings to the table given both of those things. The best case scenario with him was that he'd give you an above average wRC+ for dirt cheap over 3 seasons or so at the top of the order with the power needing to be found elsewhere in the lineup.

This injury throws that into question and makes the already farcical offseason somehow look even worse. I am genuinely and honestly at a loss for words.... things were already awful, beyond bad, laughable, even by the Pirates' own already bad standards, and now this?

The only way I can really see to save some face in this situation is simply to fire Cherington into the sun right now, in an unprecedented way in February or March right before the season (it would never happen), which would at least given the replacement cover for the bad season that is about to take place. The scenario is just so absurd on the face of it that I genuinely feel like I am crazy to type it out for the umpteenth time this winter (along with everybody else): we got handed a literal cheat code, playoff series winner at the impossible position for any team regardless of budget size, and we just didn't do absolutely nothing.

It's more likely than not that the driving reason is that Bob Nutting didn't want to spend any more money on the team. But if that's not true in even a half-assed way -- i.e., Nutting would have been ok taking the "risk" to up the payroll by a lousy 15-20M -- then the only conceivable "good" outcome here is to scapegoat this pathetic loser of a GM. He is worse than Dave Littlefield.

Yeah I've been adamant about liking Horwitz and have been vocal that he's a guy I like that they acquired. That said, even I'm in a position where I find this indefensible. With the constraints Nutting puts on the budget, they simply need to be smart with their assets and not take unnecessary risks. Knowing that Horwitz had a bum wrist at the time of the trade makes trading for him (or at least not bringing in another guy) inexcusable.

You could already argue that they overpaid for him in the first place, but paying what they did while they also knew he was having wrist issues? Inexcusable, and there's nothing else you can say but Cherington looks like an absolute moron for it.
 
If the Pirates were fine with some injury risk, there were other players they could have targeted with injury risk and equal or higher upside, particularly on some 1 or 2 year deals that they ended up with.
 
And yet people will still go to games, still spend $2-300 or more on a trip to PNC with the kids, because it's "fun".

The only way this stops is to stop spending a dime on the Bucs. There is no other way. You can cry about how impossible it is, but that's the reality. Empty PNC, significantly less income on merch and other Bucs related material for Nutting is the only prayer we have as a fanbase.

Until people stop being internet crybabies and actually invest in not giving this franchise one moment of you time and more importantly, money, the charade will continue.

Manfred spoke recently about the fans anger, so it's on the radar of MLB. The next step and the biggest hurdle is to damage the cash flow of a penny pinching team like Nutting's Bucs. Yeah, revenue sharing gives them a nice cushion, but you cannot ignore an empty ballpark. Visuals matter.

Until people actually put up an effort, instead of just bitching, we'll be going in circles.
 
And yet people will still go to games, still spend $2-300 or more on a trip to PNC with the kids, because it's "fun".

The only way this stops is to stop spending a dime on the Bucs. There is no other way. You can cry about how impossible it is, but that's the reality. Empty PNC, significantly less income on merch and other Bucs related material for Nutting is the only prayer we have as a fanbase.

Until people stop being internet crybabies and actually invest in not giving this franchise one moment of you time and more importantly, money, the charade will continue.

Manfred spoke recently about the fans anger, so it's on the radar of MLB. The next step and the biggest hurdle is to damage the cash flow of a penny pinching team like Nutting's Bucs. Yeah, revenue sharing gives them a nice cushion, but you cannot ignore an empty ballpark. Visuals matter.

Until people actually put up an effort, instead of just bitching, we'll be going in circles.
Howd that work out for Oakland?
 
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I've never fully understood where the idea that fans can somehow spur change comes from. Fans are a completely shapeless mass, not really any kind of collective group that could try to generate any leverage. There's a vague sense that bad ticket sales would hurt the team, but that is pretty greatly mitigated with how MLB's financials are set up and ticket sales have been bad for a long time. The only true impact is if the team starts winning a lot, then we'll see bigger crowds. Otherwise, it will be about the same.

I understand the "people who spend their time watching the team are fools" (I'm not gonna quote a troll, who doesn't seem to frequent the thread) idea even less.... by virtue of the exact same "logic" (I hesitate to use this word), it's even more foolish to spend your time commenting on the people who you think are spending their time in a foolish way....

I would assume this holds true for other thread regulars as well. I like baseball more than all other sports. I spend a ton of time following the Pirates because I grew up in Pittsburgh. For better or worse, that's just how it is. I also spend a lot of time following the rest of the league. Seems like an empty comment to make it about more than that, i.e., what people have as their hobbies.
 
fans dont matter a bit, the only way things would change would be if enough owners got fed up at the nuttings. seems about as likely as getting hit by a comet
 
At this point, I just don't even see a point in complaining about Nutting. He's just a constant handicap that this team will have to build in spite of. Everyone knows he sucks but it's beating a dead horse at this point.

I've firmly come around to Cherington just being a bad GM at this point, though. The Horwitz injury situation, which I'm now fully expecting will absolutely tank his production, was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. This team simply cannot be making moves with glaring red flags like that, especially considering what Cherington paid for him. Cherington's player evaluation legitimately seems to be "let's reacquire anyone I'm familiar with from Toronto".

Has Cherington even made a good trade with adding MLB talent? It's still TBD with Horwitz even with the mess right now, but De La Cruz was horrendous and IKF was a dud too.
 
At this point, I just don't even see a point in complaining about Nutting. He's just a constant handicap that this team will have to build in spite of. Everyone knows he sucks but it's beating a dead horse at this point.

I've firmly come around to Cherington just being a bad GM at this point, though. The Horwitz injury situation, which I'm now fully expecting will absolutely tank his production, was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. This team simply cannot be making moves with glaring red flags like that, especially considering what Cherington paid for him. Cherington's player evaluation legitimately seems to be "let's reacquire anyone I'm familiar with from Toronto".

Has Cherington even made a good trade with adding MLB talent? It's still TBD with Horwitz even with the mess right now, but De La Cruz was horrendous and IKF was a dud too.
Joey Bart. About it.
 
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I disagree completely. Fans pay for everything. Whether its on gameday, paywall, taxatuon, whatever. If enough people stop paying, shit changes.

The bottom line is money. And we pay for all of it.

Undisputed fact.

With that being said, I respect the other side of the coin. I just can't get on board with spending my money and time on a product that is designed to fail the paying customer.
 
Maybe now that Bregman is in Boston, Casas could be had. Rumor was they might move Casas if they got Bregman.
 
I've gotten slightly more bullish on Casas in looking ahead to the 2025 season than I was earlier in the winter (in general, not just relative to the Pirates).

There's a new projection system this year with the acronym OOPSY that is slightly higher than him on some of the others, especially with batting average (it has him around .265, Steamer is .245). If he can stay healthy, he's probably good for 25 HRs and walks at a good clip. He's not a massive impact type player but he would be relative to this bad offense.

In the abstract, I would wince about moving Jones for a 1B, but it's kind of desperate times relative to any potential upside from the offense, and wasting a year of Skenes will be unforgiveable. At least you can tell a story about Oviedo, Burrows, etc. stepping up + preparing the ground for Chandler to arrive. This would be easier to plot out if we had some more rotation stability with Ortiz, but that ship has sailed.

All that said, at this point I'd be more inclined to think that a trade would be sending Keller out for a very middling type of position player prospect and another mediocre player or two.
 

I generally take DK with a very sizable grain of salt, so we'll see whether and how much this gets traction with other reporters, but two key things here:

1) He says that according to the Pirates, they tried to sign corner OFs in free agency, including some who "would be seen above their price point", but couldn't agree on value.

2) He says there are "two or three" trade scenarios which are sitting around waiting to be pursued to find that player, but nothing is yet imminent. That said, he says that the Pirates sound confident that such a trade will happen before spring games start (two weeks basically).

I tend to think that #1 could very much just be spinning BS from the Pirates angle. There really aren't a ton of options for who that kind of player could be, and it's not like anybody got a huge contract relative to normal, expected market value. Guys didn't even get crazy term either... what are we supposed to conclude? We low-balled Santander on a three year deal and he told us to f*** off? Good for him if so.

Regardless of #1, and to be clear that is just DK relaying what he's being told, the more exclusive-to-DK story is about the possibility of a trade, which he floated the other day. I tend to believe this is true and that there's a good chance something happens. The reasons to me are fairly obvious: this Horowitz thing looks like a total and complete disaster. Say what you want about Nutting and an arbitrarily low payroll (it's all valid), but there's no chance in hell that he is happy with the situation right now.

Mackey even got into some of this on his podcast yesterday, to such an extent that he seems to really think that it's put up or shut up time for this group, and a bad four months could lead to firings in advance of the trade deadline. The offense is basically teed up to lead to a bad four months, absent some kind of miraculous return from the dead by both Hayes and Suwinski and the entire rest of the offense both staying healthy and being productive (this is always a truism with the Pirates, but it's even more apparent this year that the depth is so bad that now one big injury to Cruz or Reynolds and what little chance we have is up in smoke, but that's a topic for another day).


Obviously, assuming all of this is true, it doesn't necessarily make for the greatest position to deal from. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about what kind of trade we were shaping up to see. On the one hand, there's the possibility of a deal that would revolve around trying to move Jones for an equivalent bat who would be controllable and change the dynamic of the situation. On the other hand, I think it's worth remembering that there were rumors about a Keller trade, and although it seems like it would be foolish to pull the trigger on that now given everything else (especially if your job could be on the line), I can't rule it out. I saw a Baltimore writer floating a trade like Keller for Dean Kremer and Dylan Beavers, an OF prospect who is pure surplus in Baltimore, and that would be the kind of disaster fuel that worries me.

Maybe there's a path towards a third kind of deal, i.e., just to take this specific idea, trying to acquire Beavers for an equivalent prospect pitcher. Given his lack of experience, that wouldn't be any kind of needle mover, but it still could be a good opportunity to bring in a solid player, and Baltimore's situation is such that they basically have to deal some of this upper minors OF depth sooner or later, even if there may be some roster shuffling that does along with it.

Kjerstad is the bigger fish there, and it seems like even he doesn't have consistent everyday ABs lined up (seems like they'd platoon him), but if we were moving Jones, I think I'd rather try and build a package around Casas. That said, the Red Sox may not have as much of a need at SP because they have retooled by getting Crochet and Buehler to go along with Houck, Bello, Giolito, and Crawford.

Regardless, I do think something has to give. I don't want to underestimate the pathetic nature of the front office given the past several offseasons, but with Horowitz blowing up like this and now being a total and complete question mark, they have to try and do something to address the situation unless they are just gonna let a 75-win season play out again to the tune of them being fired in July.
 

I generally take DK with a very sizable grain of salt, so we'll see whether and how much this gets traction with other reporters, but two key things here:

1) He says that according to the Pirates, they tried to sign corner OFs in free agency, including some who "would be seen above their price point", but couldn't agree on value.

2) He says there are "two or three" trade scenarios which are sitting around waiting to be pursued to find that player, but nothing is yet imminent. That said, he says that the Pirates sound confident that such a trade will happen before spring games start (two weeks basically).

I tend to think that #1 could very much just be spinning BS from the Pirates angle. There really aren't a ton of options for who that kind of player could be, and it's not like anybody got a huge contract relative to normal, expected market value. Guys didn't even get crazy term either... what are we supposed to conclude? We low-balled Santander on a three year deal and he told us to f*** off? Good for him if so.

Regardless of #1, and to be clear that is just DK relaying what he's being told, the more exclusive-to-DK story is about the possibility of a trade, which he floated the other day. I tend to believe this is true and that there's a good chance something happens. The reasons to me are fairly obvious: this Horowitz thing looks like a total and complete disaster. Say what you want about Nutting and an arbitrarily low payroll (it's all valid), but there's no chance in hell that he is happy with the situation right now.

Mackey even got into some of this on his podcast yesterday, to such an extent that he seems to really think that it's put up or shut up time for this group, and a bad four months could lead to firings in advance of the trade deadline. The offense is basically teed up to lead to a bad four months, absent some kind of miraculous return from the dead by both Hayes and Suwinski and the entire rest of the offense both staying healthy and being productive (this is always a truism with the Pirates, but it's even more apparent this year that the depth is so bad that now one big injury to Cruz or Reynolds and what little chance we have is up in smoke, but that's a topic for another day).


Obviously, assuming all of this is true, it doesn't necessarily make for the greatest position to deal from. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about what kind of trade we were shaping up to see. On the one hand, there's the possibility of a deal that would revolve around trying to move Jones for an equivalent bat who would be controllable and change the dynamic of the situation. On the other hand, I think it's worth remembering that there were rumors about a Keller trade, and although it seems like it would be foolish to pull the trigger on that now given everything else (especially if your job could be on the line), I can't rule it out. I saw a Baltimore writer floating a trade like Keller for Dean Kremer and Dylan Beavers, an OF prospect who is pure surplus in Baltimore, and that would be the kind of disaster fuel that worries me.

Maybe there's a path towards a third kind of deal, i.e., just to take this specific idea, trying to acquire Beavers for an equivalent prospect pitcher. Given his lack of experience, that wouldn't be any kind of needle mover, but it still could be a good opportunity to bring in a solid player, and Baltimore's situation is such that they basically have to deal some of this upper minors OF depth sooner or later, even if there may be some roster shuffling that does along with it.

Kjerstad is the bigger fish there, and it seems like even he doesn't have consistent everyday ABs lined up (seems like they'd platoon him), but if we were moving Jones, I think I'd rather try and build a package around Casas. That said, the Red Sox may not have as much of a need at SP because they have retooled by getting Crochet and Buehler to go along with Houck, Bello, Giolito, and Crawford.

Regardless, I do think something has to give. I don't want to underestimate the pathetic nature of the front office given the past several offseasons, but with Horowitz blowing up like this and now being a total and complete question mark, they have to try and do something to address the situation unless they are just gonna let a 75-win season play out again to the tune of them being fired in July.
I'm not sure who dk could be alludng to.
He also mentioned that this trade would bump the the payroll. Which would seem to exclude Casas' insignificant $800k.
 
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Yeah, I overlooked that. That's a good point and the same would apply to Kjerstad.

Ironically a guy who would increase payroll is Daulton Varsho, but he'd help more in terms of the terrible defense that this group is probably about to run out than an offensive impact. Toronto might have enough depth to want to move him.



Maybe this is an oblique way to comment on the situation from a regular Pirates beat writer. I don't think it can ever be ruled out that DK is leaning into general fan outrage, and we hardly need to say that it's not really farfetched to think we would be fine continuing to do nothing. DK does also say in the article than internally they are higher on the team than everybody else, but also what else kind of perspective is the team going to give?

I do think the possibility of desperation needs to be considered. It's possible that jobs are totally safe, but I think it's more believable that guys could be on hot seats headed into the season and not showing real progress (which basically amounts to making a wild card spot, or at least being in the race in the final weeks of the season) = no more job. The Horowitz injury is really just the cherry on top of the situation.
 
I disagree completely. Fans pay for everything. Whether its on gameday, paywall, taxatuon, whatever. If enough people stop paying, shit changes.

The bottom line is money. And we pay for all of it.

Undisputed fact.

With that being said, I respect the other side of the coin. I just can't get on board with spending my money and time on a product that is designed to fail the paying customer.

But it doesnt change positively, it gets worse or goes away entirely. The reason they dont spend money is because they dont generate revenue. If they generate less revenue they will soend even less money.

Its not complicated
 

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