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Pierre Turgeon's Place In History?

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well it's not like turgeon not participating helped his team win, did it?
Are you saying that since the rest of the team had already decided that engaging in such behaviour was more important than winning hockey games, that he should have just followed along?

You're correct in the sense that once that brawl started, the Canadian team had already lost their chance at the tournament, since they should have know such things would not be tolerated. But does the concept of team play extend to when the rest of your team are being idiots, that you have to be an idiot as well?
 
well it's not like turgeon not participating helped his team win, did it?
After everyone was at it no, but having more players with Turgeon's traits that are percieved as negative would have lead to a medal instead of DQ in this situation.

Turgeon aside, Canada showed weakness getting provoked by someone who had nothing to lose and got the worst possible outcome.
Baffling that the illusion exsists that what happened was somehow a success, honorable or the right thing to do for Canada.

Before any accusations, pesonally I wouldn't be the guy that doesn't join in the heat of the moment. But putting some thoughts into it I have to say - sadly I wouldn't be that guy - because it would have been the better decision.
 
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Simply that you can paint many situations in very different lights, depending on the point you're trying to make. Many say that Turgeon lacked courage, or team spirit, or whatever. But you can just as easily say that he was the only one who had his head on straight, that he realized such a brawl could easily cost the team the tournament, etc, that winning the hockey games was more important than taking revenge or what have you.

It sure is interesting, perhaps hypocritical is a better word, how hockey accepts differences in players skill sets, yet when it comes to fighting or participating in bench clearing brawls, everyone is expected to participate no matter their role on the team. I'm more old school when it comes to fighting; I like it, I think its entertaining. It, however, is not for everyone and many more need to appreciate that.
 
I understand the argument that it's harsh to judge someone on what they did at age 17, but many people make important, life-defining decisions at 17. That's life.

I'm curious - anyone know if Turgeon ever publicly addressed his decision to stay on the bench during the brawl? Did he ever apologize to his old teammates or attempted to mend fences? I'm sure Joyce's book touched on that but I don't remember that aspect.

We all make mistakes, especially when we're young, and it's important to acknowledge them and make amends where appropriate. If Turgeon has not apologized for not sticking up for his teammates, or even acknowledged he could have done better in that situation, then he presumably stands by his decision of 25+ years ago and can still be criticized for it today.

If he has apologized then his old teammates need to move on.
 
I understand the argument that it's harsh to judge someone on what they did at age 17, but many people make important, life-defining decisions at 17. That's life.

I'm curious - anyone know if Turgeon ever publicly addressed his decision to stay on the bench during the brawl? Did he ever apologize to his old teammates or attempted to mend fences? I'm sure Joyce's book touched on that but I don't remember that aspect.

We all make mistakes, especially when we're young, and it's important to acknowledge them and make amends where appropriate. If Turgeon has not apologized for not sticking up for his teammates, or even acknowledged he could have done better in that situation, then he presumably stands by his decision of 25+ years ago and can still be criticized for it today.

If he has apologized then his old teammates need to move on.

It sounds like you're insinuating that he was wrong. If Turgeon stands by his decision, more power to him. Perhaps his teammates need to move on. Anyway, as I've already stated I'm not taking (or trying not to) any sides. A team is full of individuals that should be treated equally and accepted for their differences.
 
okay okay guys, settle down. i myself said way upthread that defining turgeon's career by something he did (or didn't do) as an 18 year old is kind of ridiculous. but not nearly as ridiculous as this "if only they were all more like pierre turgeon" sentiment. think about that for a second while you read these quotes from gare joyce's book:



"Nobody took it worse than Stephane Roy," Theoren Fleury says. "I sat next to him afterward. It was like science fiction—the guy with two heads. He had something coming out of his head, all swollen, about the size of a volley-ball." Says Brendan Shanahan: "You could see the bootmark on his forehead. He could have been killed."

After the brawl in Piestany, Stephane Roy came into the dressing room bruised, bloodied and venting. "Where the **** were you?" he said to no one in particular. "Two guys are on me and I get no help." Some of the Canadians are sure that he was saying it to Steve Nemeth. Roy says he wasn't going after Nemeth.

"When I jumped over the boards, I skated out to centre ice and grabbed what I thought was a decent-sized Soviet guy and started throwing," Roy says. "Then I got suckered from behind. That's when the trouble really started. The guy who came in and helped me was Steve Nemeth. He pulled one of the guys off me. Maybe he wasn't throwing punches like the other guys, but I don't think it's fair to say that he bailed out or chickened out. He didn't leave me hanging."



there's being a conscientious objector (like steve nemeth), and there's being a coward. i was no fighter when i played, i actually quit playing when it became too rough. but when everyone clears the bench and things get out of control, and there's no way the refs and linesmen can intercede in every fight going on at once if they need to, you at least grab a guy and hug him tight to avoid a mismatch.
 
Two Considerations

I understand the argument that it's harsh to judge someone on what they did at age 17, but many people make important, life-defining decisions at 17. That's life.

I'm curious - anyone know if Turgeon ever publicly addressed his decision to stay on the bench during the brawl? Did he ever apologize to his old teammates or attempted to mend fences? I'm sure Joyce's book touched on that but I don't remember that aspect.

We all make mistakes, especially when we're young, and it's important to acknowledge them and make amends where appropriate. If Turgeon has not apologized for not sticking up for his teammates, or even acknowledged he could have done better in that situation, then he presumably stands by his decision of 25+ years ago and can still be criticized for it today.

If he has apologized then his old teammates need to move on.

Two points.

In terms of evaluations either in 1987 in terms of the draft or today in terms of HHOF considerations it does not matter. In terms of apologizing then at age 17 or today it was/is not necessary as it was a momentary flinch that is changed by deeds not words. Subsequent deeds by Pierre Turgeon on different teams speak more than sufficiently.

As a teammate on a team at the end of its life expectancy the situation is very different. No more possibility of deeds existed so doubts prevail.
The key and major doubt is that the other players on the team have a hypothetical certainty that if Pierre Turgeon was the first victim of an attack during a game, each would have come to his aid. Each player is left with hypothetical doubts that Pierre Turgeon would have come to their assistance.
 
It sounds like you're insinuating he was wrong. If Turgeon stands by his decision, more power to him. Perhaps his teammates need to move on. Anyway, as I've already stated I'm not taking (or trying not to) any sides. A team is full of individuals that should be treated equally and accepted for their differences.

Yeah, I think he was wrong. I could say a lot more on this but I'll just say not everyone can or should punch faces but at least everyone can risk getting their face punched for a teammate.

Seems like Turgeon's decision revealed an certain attitude, and I don't know if his NHL career ever proved otherwise. Maybe he should have played golf or tennis instead of a team sport.
 
It sounds like you're insinuating that he was wrong.

Dunno if overpass is or not, but I do think he was wrong to sit there while his team mates were fighting & outnumbered as a result, 2 Russians on 1 Canadian flailing away, well, I just dont see how you could just sit there and not go & help him out. I mean, this is your Buddy, your Teammate, your Brother in Arms, Countryman. You might not like fighting & violence, ok, I get that, but what about the harm & injury going down right in front of you? Pull a Tim Horton & just go Bear Hug one of the players off your teammate but do something to stop him from getting beaten up. Youve got to have each others backs and in doing what he did, his career & reputation is most unfortunately forever stained in quite a few peoples books. Not mine, but plenty of others.

Carl Brewer went through a similar experience & situation though the circumstances were quite a bit different. Brewer as your likely aware was a pretty edgy & mouthy player, semi-dirty in fact, one of the first to carve out the palms in his gloves so he could hold a guys jersey without being spotted by the ref. Extremely talented, great skater & stickhandler, terrific shot, paired with Bob Baun one of if not the best defensive tandems in the league.

Anyway, long story short, back then everyone fought, you didnt fight you were gone. So one night in December 1963 in a game against Chicago, the Bell Rings for Brewer and he doesnt answer it. Murray Balfour of Chicago challenges him to a fight after Brewer had earned the enmity of several of the Hawks, and Shack along with other Leafs were stirring the pot as well. So multiple brawls break out followed by the benches being cleared, Balfour chasing Brewer down who wouldnt fight, getting ahold of him on the players bench and off the ice & proceeding to lay a really nasty beating on him.

Brewer never recovered from it. Wasnt the same player thereafter and in his semi-autobiography The Power of Two about the NHL Pension Fight & his life & career dedicates quite a bit of time in explaining this event & how it changed his life permanently. How he was playing scared ever after & simply couldnt take the stain, the shame of having turn tailed & run, turtled. Incredible really that he'd even made it as far as the NHL without being challenged in Junior but not inconceivable. Or that he'd gotten away with what he had in the NHL for as long as he had without someone telling him to put up or shut up. Its hard, its callous, its cold I know, but thats the way the game was played, The Code. You beak off, run wild, dish dirt, youve got to back it up. Bench clearing brawl, you see one of your team mates being attacked by 2 guys, you go help him out.

Do I think anything less of Turgeon or Brewer as players because neither wanted any part of the violence in the game? No, not at all. Brewer belongs in the HHOF in the Builders Category for what he accomplished off the ice and as a nod to his great career as a player. Does Turgeon belong in the HHOF, forgetting altogether about that one incident & event? A case could be made for it sure, but at the lower end of the spectrum & threshold for entry. Id also like to think that something gripped him in that moment back in 1987, something that if given the chance to go back & right he would, and that rather than just sit there on the bench with his head down he'd jump over those boards & help out his team mates if by only grabbing & clutching an opponent, pulling him out of the fray & causing any damage. Ive seen guys freeze, and thats exactly what he did there. Its not pretty. Im sure he's not proud of it, but I certainly dont condemn him for life for it. Was just a scared 17yr old kid who froze solid. Wasnt even there. Just gone. Total shutdown. Fugue state.
 
1986-87 Granby Bisons

Yeah, I've seen that tidbit coming from Everett Sanipass. In Gare Joyce's book.

Let's just say that my reaction started by a W and finished with a "ho".

Just a factual explanation.

Stephane Roy(Patrick's brother) and Pierre Turgeon were teammated on the 1986-87 Granby Bisons, QMJHL regular season champions.

Everett Sanipass joined the team post tournament at the last league trade period.

Gare Joyce did a good job presenting the story.
 
i found a longer version of turgeon's only real NHL fight:




now that i think about it, i wonder-- 20 year old kid, pure finesse player, gets absolutely tooled by a 25 year old role player who routinely topped 100 PIMs. evason gets 4 extra minutes for instigating; not sure what a "double instigator" is, but he got it. other sabres on the ice include housley (no help there), andreychuk, and bodger. afterwards, bodger gives turgeon a tap or a "good going kid." but still i wonder, why did no one intercede? andreychuk is a big huge guy, bodger was no shrinking violet. if that was tavares or seguin having some role player going after him, i can't imagine every other guy on the ice would be like "screw the third man in rule, i have to protect my star."

maybe a message to turgeon from his teammates that he's expected to be a better teammate than he was in piestany?
 
Id also like to think that something gripped him in that moment back in 1987, something that if given the chance to go back & right he would, and that rather than just sit there on the bench with his head down he'd jump over those boards & help out his team mates if by only grabbing & clutching an opponent, pulling him out of the fray & causing any damage. Ive seen guys freeze, and thats exactly what he did there. Its not pretty. Im sure he's not proud of it, but I certainly dont condemn him for life for it. Was just a scared 17yr old kid who froze solid. Wasnt even there. Just gone. Total shutdown. Fugue state.

that sounds about right to me. understandable; it happens. one time a few months ago i was outside of a theatre and a young african-american kid asks a white guy for a cigarette. immediately, two cops pull up and bust the kid for loitering, which then turns into solicitation after the white guy explained that the kid just asked for a cigarette, and the cops then stared that guy down and asked him if he wanted into the back of the squad car too. but i froze. i certainly wasn't going to do or say something, i mean what can you do to intercede in that situation? but if i'd had my wits about me, i would have pretended to be playing with my phone and secretly taped the whole thing. but i froze. wasn't even thinking about anything except being horrified and trying to look like i was minding my own business.

so i don't crucify turgeon for it. but i certainly don't think he should be commended for it.


I wish Turgeon would give an interview explaining his decision to stay on the bench. I'm genuinely very curious to know what was going through his head at that moment.

to my knowledge he's never addressed it. but him explicitly not addressing it in this article is kind of interesting:

January 18, 2001 Thursday Final Edition

Boxing Hall of Fame won't miss Turgeon: Ducks' Hrkac decked Blues centre for 3 games

SOURCE: The Edmonton Journal

BYLINE: Jim Matheson, Journal Hockey Writer
DATELINE: St. Louis

There are fighters and lovers.

Pierre Turgeon knows what he's best at after Tony Hrkac nailed him on the button with a big right hand last week, knocking the Blues centre to the ice.


"It made all the TV shows," said Turgeon, who has spent his career trying to stay out of the penalty box.

He has averaged 20 seconds a game in the box over his career, while Hrkac has spent even less time there, an average of 13 seconds.

It was called a pillow fight by one local columnist.

Turgeon, who suffered a mild concussion after the fight against Anaheim and missed three games, doesn't dispute it.

"It's stupid when people like me fight," said Turgeon, who'll be on the Blues' top line with Scott Young and Dallas Drake tonight against the Oilers.

Turgeon has now had two fights in his NHL career (the first was in the late '80s against Dean Evason while playing for the Buffalo Sabres in his second NHL season.

"I don't think I ever had one in junior hockey. All you can do is get hurt. You break something, you're out for two months."

Turgeon and Wayne Gretzky have similiar fight records.

The last fight Gretzky had was with Neal Broten. Paperweights.

Gretzky looked over at bodyguard Dave Semenko, who was sitting on the bench, and Semenko shrugged.

"You're on your own with this guy," said Semenko.

Broten grabbed Gretzky by the sweater and, after some grappling, No. 99 fell to the ice. No punches were thrown.

Turgeon wishes he were as lucky. He was fuzzy in the dressing room after being KO'd. He couldn't give a blow-by-blow.

"I laugh about it now. It's not my job and I'm glad it isn't."

that was the incident where he threw a couple of gloved punches at hrkac, then got floored.
 
...maybe a message to turgeon from his teammates that he's expected to be a better teammate than he was in piestany?

More than just that. It was also supportive, nurturing. Had he really gotten into trouble in that fight Im certain one of his teammates wouldve' stepped in. It was a statement by Turgeon & by his teammates that no, were not gutless, Turgeons not gutless, we wont be pushed around, arent afraid to fight, he's our teammate & as you can see, that Ghosts now put to rest. Kid froze to the bench in 87. Overwhelmed. Didnt know what to do, how to handle it, way outside of his then very young lifes experiences. No biggie. Rebounded. Resilience of youth.
 
Ive seen guys freeze, and thats exactly what he did there. Its not pretty. Im sure he's not proud of it, but I certainly dont condemn him for life for it. Was just a scared 17yr old kid who froze solid. Wasnt even there. Just gone. Total shutdown. Fugue state.

Yeah, K, that's a good point. Many of us seem to be guilty here of assuming that Turgeon had certain attitudes about fighting, that he was making a choice, a stand or just a coward. I think its entirely possible this could have occurred. I think we can all recall a time in our lives when something similar happened to us. Either way, its not worth condemning his whole career.
 
I understand the argument that it's harsh to judge someone on what they did at age 17, but many people make important, life-defining decisions at 17. That's life.

I'm curious - anyone know if Turgeon ever publicly addressed his decision to stay on the bench during the brawl? Did he ever apologize to his old teammates or attempted to mend fences? I'm sure Joyce's book touched on that but I don't remember that aspect.

We all make mistakes, especially when we're young, and it's important to acknowledge them and make amends where appropriate. If Turgeon has not apologized for not sticking up for his teammates, or even acknowledged he could have done better in that situation, then he presumably stands by his decision of 25+ years ago and can still be criticized for it today.

If he has apologized then his old teammates need to move on.

There are people who feel Turgeon has nothing to apologize for

In fact, it could be argued that his teammates owe him an apology for costing him a shot a gold medal
 
There are people who feel Turgeon has nothing to apologize for

In fact, it could be argued that his teammates owe him an apology for costing him a shot a gold medal

Listen, I'm not the biggest fan of bench clearing brawls and fighting in general, but I can't believe someone would defend Turgeon letting a teammate get brutally pummeled by 2 guys at once and not doing anything about it.

I don't think his career should be defined by a single incident in juniors (his NHL career had enough warts), but it was an indefensible thing to do at the time.
 
Fleury wasn't known for his gentlemanly play...

It's possible he did something earlier in the game to warrant getting jumped

Maybe Turgeon didn't want to get punched in the face defending a dirty player
 
Listen, I'm not the biggest fan of bench clearing brawls and fighting in general, but I can't believe someone would defend Turgeon letting a teammate get brutally pummeled by 2 guys at once and not doing anything about it.

I don't think his career should be defined by a single incident in juniors (his NHL career had enough warts), but it was an indefensible thing to do at the time.

It's not really "indefensible" if I'm defending it
 
Yeah, K, that's a good point. Many of us seem to be guilty here of assuming that Turgeon had certain attitudes about fighting, that he was making a choice, a stand or just a coward. I think its entirely possible this could have occurred. I think we can all recall a time in our lives when something similar happened to us. Either way, its not worth condemning his whole career.

Im convinced thats exactly what went down. Kid just froze. Ive done it myself on the track suddenly being confronted with serious sprinters or middle distance runners in nationals way beyond your comfort zone of provincial & city; on the ice the first time your playing at an elevated or elite level & as a Goalie behind a team that sucks in pre-season when nothings really come together, all new team mates & players, and your facing guys who are either already legends or those about to become so. Can be seriously overwhelming & embarrassing. Like 12-0 embarrassing as all of your players as well freeze up. Overwhelmed. Time to get real & get it together, turn these so called Supermen into Sausage because if you dont, your dead meat. Its just a learning experience & you either rise to the occasion or your gone. Mental toughness. Belief in oneself. Requires a healthy dose of arrogance actually and nothing wrong with that.

To ascribe a 17yr olds lack of engaging in a case of spontaneous combustion as occurred in Piestany to Moral Protest simply isnt accurate. Nor do I consider it disloyal or gutless. Clearly Turgeon was deeply conflicted & overwhelmed by what had transpired in front of him. Uncertain how to react as he was both sickened & appalled at what he was witnessing and buried his head in his chest so he wouldnt have to watch it. Stared at the floor in front of him on the players bench. Plenty of high-end athletes and performers (music, theater, film & TV, public speakers & politicians) have to fight there way through what is sometimes called stage freight or when competing in a game or race will tense up & shutdown, unable to react spontaneously & for that which they have worked & trained so hard to achieve. There can be any number of triggers really. Like the first time playing in front of 18,000 people in an arena. Try it yourself and tell me that isnt intimidating?

In Turgeons case coming from an upper middle class background & through the QMJHL which nurtured, fostered & promoted the artists such as himself absent Rock'm Sock'm Hockey. A different kind of Lord of the Flys' altogether based on speed, skill & hockey smarts. Talent. Its understandable that he reacted as he did. Impervious to the blood lust & anarchy that reigned before him. Inoculated against it as being a Neanderthal disease that he as a player had never really faced before, and here it was on a grand scale. World stage. Its something deeply personal, and Im sure he mustve felt a considerable amount of guilt through peer pressure, catcalled forever after, however, it didnt slow him down as a high performance player throughout his career & I would imagine he did seek counseling to deal with it in the aftermath. Worked through it....

As I say, I have seen this phenomena on numerous occasions and it can even affect experienced, older & wilier athletes & performers who you would least expect it to; many of whom would turn to alcohol & or drugs to compensate facilitating spontaneous reactions & giving them that "edge" if you will destroying themselves & the lives of those around them in the process. Sports Psychology has come a long way over the past 30yrs, most NHL clubs in interviewing & then Drafting players in some, not all but in some cases addressing issues of inconsistent performance or of known behavioural anomalies not in keeping with the cultural norms of hockey and what is just naturally expected of the player in whom a large investment is about to be made.
 
Yeah maybe. But Turgeon was still good enugh to be expected to be a number one center, but in that situatuion he failed to create much playoff success. He was not elite in the position he was in.

The Penguins failed to qualify for the postseason during Lemieux's first 4 seasons

Seems silly to hinge team success on one player
 
It's so sad people don't realize violence is wrong and doesn't solve problems. Hopefully we as a society can all grow up some day.
 
It's so sad people don't realize violence is wrong and doesn't solve problems. Hopefully we as a society can all grow up some day.

I don't think people are saying he should have gone out and gone berserk. Only gone out as a peace keeper with his blue UN helmet tightly on.
 
Im convinced thats exactly what went down.

In Turgeons case coming from an upper middle class background & through the QMJHL which nurtured, fostered & promoted the artists such as himself absent Rock'm Sock'm Hockey. A different kind of Lord of the Flys' altogether based on speed, skill & hockey smarts. Talent.

Well said, your entire post. In 1987, I would think most kids playing hockey at most levels and possibly cracking NHL lineups were from lower to middle class backgrounds. The game was much cheaper for parents, kids were still playing shinny on outdoor rinks; lots of kids from the sticks like Theo Fleury. Like you say, Turgeon was perhaps out of his element. Possibly couldn't relate to most of his teammates, never mind being French Canadian playing on a National team, which has its own set of challenges; at that time, the English-French problem, very big in Quebec. Since then, we have seen a swing in the other direction. I'd hazard a guess and say most kids playing today and even those cracking NHL lineups are coming from middle, upper-middle class and high income families, with the game being so expensive to play.
 

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