Pierre Turgeon's Place In History?

[BraveCanadian]

1st overall pick by the Sabres in the '87 draft, Pierre Turgeon went on to amass 515 goals and 1327 points in 1294 games

*finished 5th in Hart voting in '93 after leading the Islanders in scoring with 58 goals and 132 points... 2nd in scoring that year was Steve Thomas with 87 points


Other notable centers of his era and their PPG ranking all-time:

15. Sakic 1.191
17. LaFontaine 1.171
18. Yzerman 1.159
19. Lindros 1.138
33. Oates 1.062
40. Francis 1.039
42. Turgeon 1.026
50. Sundin 1.003
78. Gilmour .959
82. Fedorov .945
98. Modano .917
111. Nieuwendyk .896
112. Roenick .892


If Francis is considered the 35th best center of all-time around these parts, how is it that Turgeon can't crack the top 60?

The guy had a Hall of Fame career, where's the respect?

I believe Turgeon was in the mix at the end of the list there.

In answer to your question, though, Francis did a lot more than put up points and Turgeon really didn't outside having good positioning due to his hockey IQ.

Francis was more than the sum of his parts and Turgeon much less than he should have been based on his talent.

 

[Copmuter*]

It's interesting that people cite injuries, because Turgeon played nearly 1300 regular season games

 

[Iain Fyffe]

it was auto correct... or something. I meant to say "dangerous"... not "important".

Ian Fyffe must have been really confused to read that from me too.

That's hilarious. Your intent was apparently clear enough that you didn't even have to write it for me to get it.

 

[seventieslord]

It's interesting that people cite injuries, because Turgeon played nearly 1300 regular season games

That's true. He also played 91% of his team's games from 1988-89 through 2000-01, the 13-year period where he was an impact player. Or impact scorer, or whatever people are willing to admit he was. Missing just 9% of his games is not the profile of an injury prone player.

The timing of his injuries really screws his legacy.

I'm not going into it again. search for posts by me with his name in it, from this section.

 

[Big Phil]

Turgeon played on some poor teams as well

Francis was minus 3 in '94

To be honest, you'd be surprised at the low plus/minus Messier had in his career. Messier is a career +210. Nothing to sneeze at, but you would think it would be higher right? But then you have to take into account how Messier was matching up against the other team's top lines so often and even in his best season he was just +40 on the 1984 Oilers. So there are so many dynamics and factors into +/- that it is hard to call it an individual stat unless it is a major outlier on your team. That being said, Francis was good defensively and was a great faceoff man. He thrived at other aspects of the game, where as Turgeon didn't.

I figured. But back in the 1980s toughness still counted for something, and one would think that some teams (and coaches) would see that as a plus.

I also think a player is more likely to get hurt PLAYING the game, rather than fighting.

Whatever... VERY GOOD player; but not "special" or elite. And as I said before, as a fan of an opposing team, he never scared me. I never worried about how the Bruins were going to shut Pierre Turgeon down.

That's the thing right there too. This is often brought up with Turgeon. Rarely do you hear people worry about how they're going to shut down Turgeon. It could be done and done effectively in a tight game. He didn't strike fear into you that way. John Tonelli was a guy that you kept closer tabs on at times like this if that tells you anything. Tonelli was a guy you worried about being the hero against you. Turgeon, not so much.

As for the World Junior thing, I didn't like it to be honest and it is really hard to find footage of seeing him physically sitting there on the bench. I am sure you can find it somewhere though. But while I don't like to hold it against a kid, the truth is, like Lindros with the things he did as a kid (sulking and refusing to play for a team) it is hard to forget when it spills out into their NHL career. LIndros pulled the same type of trick with Philly. Turgeon just never grew a spine. If he did then you would forget that he sat while his teammates fought on the ice. But from things like his "Tin Man" nickname to his overall softness, yeah it just seemed like it was a trend with him. Even Jason Spezza has more tenacity. He had the most penalty minutes in that one brawl filled game in 2004 against the Flyers. No one could imagine Turgeon doing that.

 

[BLNY]

On the basis of his skills, personal numbers, and comparable players from his generation, I think he merits induction.

IMO, there are players in the HoF based more on the number of cups they won instead of the actual impact they had game to game. They were lucky enough to be part of deep teams that had success.

Turgeon was never that fortunate. I don't think the number of rings you have, or haven't, should impact whether you're inducted. It's not the Stanley Cup of Fame. It's the Hockey Hall of Fame. As a hockey player, Turgeon played the game with a great deal of skill.

 

[AmericanDream]

the HOF is all about numbers, especially more modern day players. having over 500 goals and 1300 points is nothing to sneeze at and are HOF numbers. He belongs in there no doubt about it.

 

[Pominville Knows]

On the basis of his skills, personal numbers, and comparable players from his generation, I think he merits induction.

IMO, there are players in the HoF based more on the number of cups they won instead of the actual impact they had game to game. They were lucky enough to be part of deep teams that had success.

Turgeon was never that fortunate. I don't think the number of rings you have, or haven't, should impact whether you're inducted. It's not the Stanley Cup of Fame. It's the Hockey Hall of Fame. As a hockey player, Turgeon played the game with a great deal of skill.

Yeah maybe. But Turgeon was still good enugh to be expected to be a number one center, but in that situatuion he failed to create much playoff success. He was not elite in the position he was in.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

the HOF is all about numbers, especially more modern day players. having over 500 goals and 1300 points is nothing to sneeze at and are HOF numbers. He belongs in there no doubt about it.

The HHOF cares a lot about numbers, but obviously they aren't all that matters. Otherwise someone like Turgeon would be in, as you said

 

[Scotty B]

Kinda busy...didn't read a single posting in this thread..BUT two bits quite a few mentioned that Turgeon was safely ensconced on the bench while Piestany punch-up was on going, leaving his mates on ice shorthanded, and leaving Turgeon's Esprit de Corps ( was gonna say something much worse but stopped myself ) AND his reputation, in some circles, forever in tatters.

A very talented player obviously, BUT ( well I'll stop right there )

 

[Epsilon]

Personally I think it's pretty pathetic and myopic the way his entire career has been smeared because of something that happened in a junior hockey exhibition tournament.

That being said, I think he's sub-HOF quality, but not by a lot. And there are players who had worse careers that have been inducted, but as always that's not a reason to compound errors.

 

[Scotty B]

Personally I think it's pretty pathetic and myopic the way his entire career has been smeared because of something that happened in a junior hockey exhibition tournament.

That being said, I think he's sub-HOF quality, but not by a lot. And there are players who had worse careers that have been inducted, but as always that's not a reason to compound errors.

Yeah But he stayed on the bench, the bench! on a BERT TEMPLETON coached team, until Old Bert read him the riot act...Hell, all he had to do was go out and pick another partner who really didn't wanna dance either...

Piestany was such a Big Moment in Canadian + International Hockey History, he just couldn't live it down. Hell, it seems worse, way worse to many, to this day, than Fleury's 3rd period meltdown + own goal vs Yanks...

And ex-mates on that team have admitted that they still think he's a ... well let's not even go there...

Anyway, it wasn't an exhibition game, it was the World Juniors, millions of home viewers ( me included ) watching Canada vs Russia, Canada up 4-2 in second period... Theo Fleury , if memory serves, scoring two of the goals...And Canada needing +2 more goals ( vs a Russian squad in full blown meltdown ) to wind up in a dead heat with Suomi, for Gold, and +3 more goals to claim gold OUTright...

They jumped +slash Theo, mayhem ensues, Sherry Basin with the colorful commentary, the lights go out ...yadda yadda!

Really, one of the highlight ( or low light ) moments in the whole storied Canada vs Russia rivalry

Exhibition game? Give ur head a shake

 

[MXD]

Yeah But he stayed on the bench, the bench! on a BERT TEMPLETON coached team, until Old Bert read him the riot act...Hell, all he had to do was go out and pick another partner who really didn't wanna dance either...

Piestany was such a Big Moment in Canadian + International Hockey History, he just couldn't live it down. Hell, it seems worse, way worse to many, to this day, than Fleury's 3rd period meltdown vs Yanks...

And ex-mates on that team have admitted that they still think he's a ... well let's not even go there...

Yeah, I've seen that tidbit coming from Everett Sanipass. In Gare Joyce's book.

Let's just say that my reaction started by a W and finished with a "ho".

 

[Pominville Knows]

Kinda busy...didn't read a single posting in this thread..BUT two bits quite a few mentioned that Turgeon was safely ensconced on the bench while Piestany punch-up was on going, leaving his mates on ice shorthanded, and leaving Turgeon's Esprit de Corps ( was gonna say something much worse but stopped myself ) AND his reputation, in some circles, forever in tatters.

A very talented player obviously, BUT ( well I'll stop right there )

Unfortunately you're the last one to the party. You should read the threads before posting someting supposedly dramatic.

 

[Scotty B]

Unfortunately you're the last one to the party. You should read the threads before posting someting supposedly dramatic.

I posted it because...doubtless like many, THAT incident is the first thing I think of when the name Pierre Turgeon comes up...

Rightly or wrongly...Just being forthright/ honest...

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Maybe he should have stripped down to his jockstrap and did a lap around the ice? Seriously though, Bobby Hull refused to fight in his WHA days and spoke out against violence. So Turgeon leaves the bench and goes dancing? Big deal. It takes a bigger man not to follow the herd. Personally, I would be throwing 'em with someone, but to brand Turgeon for his entire career? Overblown indeed.

 

[Scotty B]

Yeah, I've seen that tidbit coming from Everett Sanipass. In Gare Joyce's book.

Let's just say that my reaction started by a W and finished with a "ho".

I never read that book, nor have I seen the tidbit...I was a big fan of the Bert Templeton coached + MEM Cup FinCups ... who won silver at WJC's ( after relocating to St Kitts...) with tourney MVP Dale McCourt and company...they borrowed John Anderson from Marlies....Al Secord, Ric Seiling ( Danny Shearer hurt didn't play ) yadda, yadda .

I knew about the Turgeon stuff, from the old days..

 

[Iain Fyffe]

The HHOF cares a lot about numbers, but obviously they aren't all that matters. Otherwise someone like Turgeon would be in, as you said

He's only been eligible for a few years. Absolutely too soon to suggest that he won't get in eventually. He's certainly near the bottom of what the Hall of Fame seems to have as standards, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he were inducted in the next decade.

It takes a bigger man not to follow the herd. Personally, I would be throwing 'em with someone, but to brand Turgeon for his entire career? Overblown indeed.

That's the problem with this type of criticism: it's just as easy to spin it in the opposite direction.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He's only been eligible for a few years. Absolutely too soon to suggest that he won't get in eventually. He's certainly near the bottom of what the Hall of Fame seems to have as standards, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he were inducted in the next decade.
.

I think he'd be a pretty awful induction. A guy with his resume playing in a lower scoring era (like the current one) wouldn't have a prayer. Normally, I'd say the HHOF committee would just see that he scored a lot of career points and at least think about inducting him, without paying attention to era. But I think Turgeon has such a uniquely bad reputation that it will be enough to keep him out.

I don't care about the Punch Up at all, but I'm sure some members of the Committee do.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

That's the problem with this type of criticism: it's just as easy to spin it in the opposite direction.

I'm not sure what your saying Iain. Please elaborate.

 

[Big Phil]

On the basis of his skills, personal numbers, and comparable players from his generation, I think he merits induction.

IMO, there are players in the HoF based more on the number of cups they won instead of the actual impact they had game to game. They were lucky enough to be part of deep teams that had success.

Turgeon was never that fortunate. I don't think the number of rings you have, or haven't, should impact whether you're inducted. It's not the Stanley Cup of Fame. It's the Hockey Hall of Fame. As a hockey player, Turgeon played the game with a great deal of skill.

Comparing him to others of his generation is where this hurts him. The raw numbers are fine, but you have to ask yourself when he was considered even top 5 at his position? According to all-star finishes, not once. Twice he finished 6th in all-star voting for centers. 1990 and 1993. In 1993 you had Lemieux, Gilmour, Lafontaine, Oates, Yzerman as better centers that year. It makes sense. This was Turgeon's best season in my opinion. He finished 5th in Hart voting that year. Nothing else worth noting after that.

So you have to ask, in his career how many centers would you have wanted on your team ahead of him? For the ones who played during his era: Sundin, Modano, Francis, Yzerman, Lafontaine, Gilmour, Oates, probably even Roenick, Fedorov, Lindros, Forsberg, Sakic, Lemieux. Is he that much better than BrindAmour? Or Damphousse? There are plenty of centers who had a better career.

Yeah But he stayed on the bench, the bench! on a BERT TEMPLETON coached team, until Old Bert read him the riot act...Hell, all he had to do was go out and pick another partner who really didn't wanna dance either

I think that's what bothers me the most here. Heck, even Henrik Sedin would have done that. Now, he'd have stood there and let a player not unlike Brad Marchand repeatedly punch him, but at least he'd be present and have an opponent occupied. I know one thing with Gretzky is that when things like brawls happened he looked for the one guy on the ice who didn't want to be there anymore than he did. They'd always find each other and they'd just keep each other contained. I would also think if Jari Kurri had two players pummelling him that Gretzky would at the very least peel a guy off and grab him to make it even. Sometimes it is just about trust and knowing you are going into war and your teammate has your back. The reason something like this gets brought up is because Turgeon was soft his entire career and it makes it easier to remember.

 

[unknown33]

How the Turgeon brawl story is portrayed is the most absurd thing in Hockey and void of any logic.
All the talk about how winning is important, then tell me what were the consequences and the result of the brawl?

 

[shadow1]

He was good for a long time, with a couple great seasons.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

How the Turgeon brawl story is portrayed is the most absurd thing in Hockey and void of any logic.
All the talk about how winning is important, then tell me what were the consequences and the result of the brawl?

well it's not like turgeon not participating helped his team win, did it?

 

[Iain Fyffe]

I'm not sure what your saying Iain. Please elaborate.

Simply that you can paint many situations in very different lights, depending on the point you're trying to make. Many say that Turgeon lacked courage, or team spirit, or whatever. But you can just as easily say that he was the only one who had his head on straight, that he realized such a brawl could easily cost the team the tournament, etc, that winning the hockey games was more important than taking revenge or what have you.