Phoenix Part XXX Hulz, you gotta get a gimmick if you want to get ahead

[wpgallday1960]

I agree with your statement in that MTS Centers performance is an example to follow. It makes it so much more amazing when All those locations are a Jet ride away, with much larger populations to draw from.

Geographically the only local (and I mean that loosely) competion is a 3hour drive and a boarder away in Grand Forks, ND. It can also be noted that many people from ND come to Winnipeg for events and many Manitoban's go to ND for events.

Man, if it takes you 3 hours to drive to Grand Forks you must be imitating Morgan Freeman in "Driving Miss Daisy".

Back on topic: While I no doubt agree there will some negative economic impact if the Yotes leave but hiring a skilled, competent and no doubt cheaper arena management firm will minimize the losses. Certainly less than the $500M BS quoted by Scruggs.

 

[Ciao]

Sidelines?. Goldwaters' gone full-bore Intervention and laid down a 12 Step Program they expect the NHL, the COG & MH to adhere to, nothing seemingly "negotiable" about it. The league is getting caught up in the crossfire with questions as to why it is they arent willing to drop their price if they believe in the market so much. Will they too guarantee the COG that the taxpayers wont be on the hook in providing a Bond or Surety against future losses?. Why did they not insist upon an out clause in the Lease, for if it does indeed fail again, then what?.

We have all asked these questions but gotten no answers. With Goldwater pressing, the NHL can either address them; try & shout them down or just ignore them & let the COG remain paralytic, frozen stiff, and just leave upon seasons end in much the same way the Nordiques left QC; with about 72hrs notice in June. The only one that can really do much of anything right now would be MH, and he just doesnt seem to have the will to dig in deeper financially & back up a bit in order to close. Each & every one of the GWI's 12 points (now 14) are fully packed cartridges, anyone of which can trigger an end to this sale unless addressed by the COG, MH & the NHL. And here its March 25th?. This is beyond absurd. It just Beggars Belief to think it can be accomplished even by July let alone October 2011.

How did it go from Bolick intimating to Hulsizer in December that "conceptually" it looks OK to this?. WTF is it with the COG that they are so hostile, so entrenched, so myopic?. Why, have we neither seen nor heard from the NHL throughout this fiasco a plan to provide relief for the incoming owner in terms of a re-working on the terms WITH BOG APPROVAL if the intent was altruistic, simultaneously being for the greater good?. Who, exactly, is Matthew Hulsizer; who, exactly, are his minority partners and how much, exactly, are they financing on their $70M+ to purchase the team?. What, exactly are their business plans?. How, exactly do they plan to increase bookings at the arena as the Arena Managers?. With no experience in the field whatsoever, farm it out?. To whom?. What will they do?. Never mind the issue of the unbelievable mgmnt fee, thats covered in the 12 Step Program already.

And the Coyotes; how much are you planning to spend on advertising & promotions, including ticket discounts & other cost based expenditures & for how long in order to build the brand & the faith back up to & well beyond what its ever been?. If they were so confident in their positions; why has Maloney been left to operate on a "next two weeks we'll know Donny" basis every two weeks for the past 15wks post the Dec 14th COG vote to approve the deal'?. The core of a decent teams in place, key UFA's, RFA's reaching end-term; the on-ice product a rather important cog in the machine moving forward yes?. If the COG wants this so badly, they'd drop the Bonds, file for enforceable opinion & take the fight to GW & never mind its threats & promises to file. They seem beyond dysfunctional. Beyond incompetent.

As a person who tends to be a cynic anyway, I can barely keep up with myself in considering the players in this caper.... And now this. Your sardonic observation that the unelected extreme right-wing GWI is now negotiating directly with Hulsizer in order to keep the team alive & well & living in Glendale is exactly whats going on now. Hulsizer waiting until Tuesdays to decide what he'll do next when Goldwaters up-dated written report hits the fan pursuant to one minor & seemingly disingenuous offer by MH to back the debt servicing fee's on the Bonds. This is just one un-Holy mess.......

I think this is the post that sums up post-December 14 the best.

I followed the Dec. 14 council meeting, and I too thought the deal was done. I would have never guessed that they would not have closed it by now.

I give full marks to Glendale for gumption and perseverence. I often admire Americans for their damn-the-torpedoes attitude, and this is just another example of that. I don't even care if they want to blow their own tax dollars on a sports team . . . they could spend it at the casino if thats what they want to do and the electorate is happy. It's really none of my business. It's just weird that if what they want to do is constitutionally valid, they have chosen an extremely inept strategy for implementing it and as a result have not been able to pull it off.

I also admit that I am probably much more receptive to Goldwater's efforts because of my wish that the franchise would return to Winnipeg. Although I am a lawyer, I have no desire to turn this into another case of the type I do Monday-Friday, nor do I want to pretend I'm a judge impartially assessing/analyzing anything. I'm a hockey fan on a hockey board, and this is pure entertainment. Besides, I enjoy the posts of the business people (which I find the most enlightening) and other non-business non-lawyer hockey fans immensely. I have no illusions that Goldwater is anything but a political right-wing think tank of the type that I often despise in politics. However, despite all that, I can't find any fault in what they've done. I wouldn't have wished the gift clause to be in the Arizona constitution, but since there it is they have every right to advocate for its compliance, with or without the agreement of the most knowledgeable posters on HFBoards. They have been consistent and stuck with it, and it looks to me like they might well succeed in blocking this deal.

If the deal is constitutionally valid, the NHL could be just as persistent by waiving their own deadlines, and allowing Glendale to bring the legal action it needs to bring to have the courts approve the deal in advance of the sale of the bonds (which would then be at a much more palatable rate of interest). In a logical world, this is how I think it would pan out. The problems there are firstly that the NHL probably does not have enough confidence that after all is said and done (including perhaps multiple appeals) things will come out on their side. Secondly, win or lose, I doubt that the NHL or Glendale want to spend any time at all in court over this where closed doors would be opened and their actions scrutinized.

Finally, I think Glendale made a fundamental error early on when it toyed with Goldwater and seemed to adopt an un-co-operative approach with them. You should always start things off the way you want them to continue, and I think this has come back to haunt them.

Forgive me for the long and rambling post. I so enjoyed reading Killion's that I wanted to share my thoughts as well.

 

[jol]

This isn't scientific, but the Coyotes ticket revenues were $13,328,609 for 2008-09 according to their bankruptcy documents. To get an idea of real attendance as opposed to announced, if we use the posted $37/ticket average for 41 games, we get an average of 8,786 fans per game.

The NHL's published attendance for the Coyotes for 2009-09 was 14,875, which either means they are stretching the truth or that the average ticket was $21/game. I suspect its somewhere in between...with real and paid attendance averaging 11,000 - with ticket prices around $30

That was 08-09...and both attendance and revenue has dropped since then.

I wonder what average they are using, weighted? As an example, arena has two sections, lower and upper bowl, upper bowl tickets are $10, lower bowl $100. They sell 1000 lower bowl and 10000 upper bowl tickets, is the average $55 or closer to $10 ($18)?

JOL

 

[htpwn]

That was last year.

This year, they switched from Windows to Mac and can now wait until August 15 before turning on the scheduling computer.

For the record, Sportsnet's Sources Say just reported they have been told that only one schedule is being made at this point, with Phoenix, not Winnipeg. Certainly odd if true.

 

[Whileee]

For the record, Sportsnet's Sources Say just reported they have been told that only one schedule is being made at this point, with Phoenix, not Winnipeg. Certainly odd if true.

He must mean "Arizona" and not "Phoenix", right? Hulsizer will be changing the name to the Arizona Coyotes. Or could it be that the NHL is planning to hang onto the team for another year with its current name?

 

[cbcwpg]

For the record, Sportsnet's Sources Say just reported they have been told that only one schedule is being made at this point, with Phoenix, not Winnipeg. Certainly odd if true.

They said there is one schedule " on the books ", but it doesn't mean there are schedules off the books. We know Bettman is going to cover his butt, and that's why the NHL had a schedule last season that included Winnipeg, just in case. IMO the NHL will also have a "Break Glass incase of Emergency" schedule for next season as well. Its all about PR at this point. What do expect the NHL to say? That they have a schedule without PHX for next year, while all along saying the team is staying. Of course they won't say that.

And if the NHL wants to own this team for one more year again good luck trying to sell it in 2012 with a potential lock-out coming and another $40M in losses added to the price. What would the price be then... $250M? On a franchase that at best is worth half that. At that point the NHL might as well own it forever, because nobodys buying at that price.

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

I so enjoyed reading Killion's that I wanted to share my thoughts as well.

A terrific post that is a terriffic complement to Killion's

 

[Donwood]

They said there is one schedule " on the books ", but it doesn't mean there are schedules off the books. We know Bettman is going to cover his butt, and that's why the NHL had a schedule last season that included Winnipeg, just in case. IMO the NHL will also have a "Break Glass incase of Emergency" schedule for next season as well. Its all about PR at this point. What do expect the NHL to say? That they have a schedule without PHX for next year, while all along saying the team is staying. Of course they won't say that.

And if the NHL wants to own this team for one more year again good luck trying to sell it in 2012 with a potential lock-out coming and another $40M in losses added to the price. What would the price be then... $250M? On a franchase that at best is worth half that. At that point the NHL might as well own it forever, because nobodys buying at that price.

My compliments to Killion as well for the best statement of this mess.

I agree as well with CBCWPG. There is no way the NHL holds on to this team for another year. Even Bettman must be sick and tired of this circus.

This all just seems to be playing out for one of two things to happen. A miracle that Goldwater somehow backs down or makes great compromise. Or the NHL is ready to pull the plug at seasons end and leave Glendale with there head held high that they did everything to save the team but the dastardly Goldwater Institute blocked every attempt the brave knight Bettman and his trusty sidekick Daly made. Hulsizer and his band of rich but over there head buddies ride off into the sunset only to appear in a better situation.

 

[Pinchy]

This has been said before, but I have to think that if the Yotes are going to move - it will be announced sometime between April 2nd - April 7th.

This is during a long stretch of days off for the Coyotes and will give them one more regular season game at home plus their playoff games to say farewell. I also agree that the NHL will not want to make a statement during the Stanley Cup playoffs or even have this being a talking point during the playoffs.

It doesn't look good for Phoenix, but I also don't see Bettman returning to Winnipeg unless it is on HIS terms. If Bettman manages to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix, then I think we'll be in the exact same spot (well, probably far worse - for Glendale at least) in 5 years when the team goes back into bankruptcy.

 

[Gump Hasek]

For the record, Sportsnet's Sources Say just reported they have been told that only one schedule is being made at this point, with Phoenix, not Winnipeg. Certainly odd if true.

The question being does it include Atlanta? Or Manitoba? The potential new team won't be called the WINNIPEG ____.

 

[Donwood]

This has been said before, but I have to think that if the Yotes are going to move - it will be announced sometime between April 2nd - April 7th.

This is during a long stretch of days off for the Coyotes and will give them one more regular season game at home plus their playoff games to say farewell. I also agree that the NHL will not want to make a statement during the Stanley Cup playoffs or even have this being a talking point during the playoffs.

It doesn't look good for Phoenix, but I also don't see Bettman returning to Winnipeg unless it is on HIS terms. If Bettman manages to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix, then I think we'll be in the exact same spot (well, probably far worse - for Glendale at least) in 5 years when the team goes back into bankruptcy.

And what do you think are Bettmans terms? Seems to be if they agree on the purchase price thats all that matters.

 

[Pinchy]

And what do you think are Bettmans terms? Seems to be if they agree on the purchase price thats all that matters.

I don't think it sits well with Bettman that a franchise may relocate to Winnipeg (or anywhere else) because of a 3rd party's involvement. If Winnipeg gets a team, I think Bettman wants it to be because he chose Winnipeg as a suitable city, not because it was the only option left after his preferred choice was scuttled.

I think that is the main reason why Bettman is fighting so hard to keep the Coyotes in Glendale...because he will look like he lost in the court of public opinion (which he will have).

 

[ColinM]

For the record, Sportsnet's Sources Say just reported they have been told that only one schedule is being made at this point, with Phoenix, not Winnipeg. Certainly odd if true.

I heard that too. Perhaps the NHL has these leaks with the intention of giving the fanbase in Phoenix reason to believe the NHL is doing everything they can to keep the team in Phoenix and to remind them that the NHL are the good guys in this mess.

I wonder if they have started selling season tickets for the 2011-12 season in Phoenix.

 

[Brodie]

Another thread over

no news in what feels like weeks

 

[Donwood]

I don't think it sits well with Bettman that a franchise may relocate to Winnipeg (or anywhere else) because of a 3rd party's involvement. If Winnipeg gets a team, I think Bettman wants it to be because he chose Winnipeg as a suitable city, not because it was the only option left after his preferred choice was scuttled.

I think that is the main reason why Bettman is fighting so hard to keep the Coyotes in Glendale...because he will look like he lost in the court of public opinion (which he will have).

I agree Bettman would rather have his fingernails pulled off by pliers then move the team back to Canada but I think what he wants and what he gets is getting further and further apart.

 

[Jet]

Well, I wont go any further than saying Im no fan of John McCain, and I certainly dont have much respect for his grandstanding & changes with the wind positions, let alone his judgment (or lack thereof). Im sure some of the Coyotes fans will appreciate it, not a whole lot of them though, because Boy, I sure wouldnt want that guy advocating on my behalf under this particular set of circumstances at this time in history. Quietly & privately absolutely. But not publicly.

This is the thing that made me shake my head when the whole "McCain speaks during intermission" thing was paraded about by the fans who want the Coyotes to stay. They (some of them) were saying that there was no way GWI was going to keep up the fight now that the great McCain had spoken, but to me, it seemed like it was either more for optics on McCain's part, or some kind of PC power play. If McCain TRULY had clout with GWI, all of the discussions, and resolution would have been made in private meetings between him and the institute, and we would have seen Goldwater making a press release about it and not McCain in the intermission of a hockey game. False hope for Coyotes fans in this case I think.

 

[CasualFan]

Much as it is an obsession of some to assess my motives and "bias", as if that had the slightest thing to do with (a) the substance of the matter, or (b) the validity of my positions, you are incorrect with your assessments. You misinterpret the ability to capably argue a position and marshal evidence/data with making something "intensely personal".

I am not assessing your motives, as they do not concern me. I am assessing only the content of your posts. I misinterpret nothing. There is an unmistakable pattern of biased opinions and a clear preference for the outcome of this saga. This pattern is not the byproduct of substance or validity; it is the mark of an agenda. As documented numerous times, I share many of the same positions. What I do not share is a distain for any of the parties involved or a preference for the end result.

Are you suggesting that engaging in sharp practice requires that one be a "criminal mastermind"? Who is talking about a "criminal" anything? Perhaps you are just using a classic strawman argument, suggesting that my argument is about something else, like criminality.

Or perhaps I gave you credit for being able to marshal the evidence/data of a lighthearted quip

Whether a complaint is filed or not is dispositive of nothing, as you well know. Parties decline to pursue legitimate claims for many reasons. This is a classic case of tortious interference.

There is no case whatsoever for Tortious Interference. Your entire argument is based on a feeble game of semantics. In this matter, the decision not to pursue a claim is very telling. Glendale's lack of action completely extinguishes your fictional adaptation of Goldwater’s actions.

As an aside, let's clear up that the word “obstruction†has a definition to mean something/someone that prevents access or progress. Glendale has obstructed Goldwater; Goldwater has obstructed Glendale. Have we reached the point where common language cannot be used? I’m not invoicing for this conversation and we are not before a judge, I'm willing to use easy terms to convey a point in one sentence. Also, I never referenced or thought the Goldwater public records case to be a “great victoryâ€. Not sure where you got that. Goldwater prevailed in the case. Nothing more, nothing less.

This is the obvious bias that I referred to. You display a personal vendetta against Goldwater that prohibits you from objectively acknowledging the vast amount of success they have had in this matter. Successes that frankly I did not think they were capable of. You may continue your futile campaign to diminish those successes but it will not make them go away. All it really does is undermine your effectiveness as an analyst. I mention it solely for that reason. I found your contributions much more enlightening before they were shoehorned to fit a predetermined goal.

Now I have conclusions. That is how investigation and research works. If someone could come up with something new to change my view, I would consider it.

Our views are completely irrelevant to the matter. Why would anyone desire to change a view that is inconsequential to begin with? It seems like you have lost your perspective along with your objectivity. You may also wish to leave some room for conclusions that you have reached that are not consistent with actual results.

 

[Jet]

It also only serves a population of < 1 million. Surely the challenge for Jobing.com (with or without the Coyotes) is to take advantage of having a great facility to take away some of the business from other venues in Phoenix. I would have thought that if Glendale is prepared to pay up to $18 million per year in "arena management fees", an effective arena manager could make that venue very competitive, indeed.

I agree. I haven't been to Jobing but from all reports it's beautiful. Sound management will definitely attract more than enough acts to that building. There are plenty of attractions and as Coyotes fans have touted many times, over 4 million people in the valley. As soon as CoG can give up this tunnel vision method of dealing with the arena, they might see that there is a way of making money, WITHOUT selling the farm.

 

[peter sullivan]

this made me laugh this morning on tsn....footage of matty and gary walking through a hotel lobby and ol' shoaltsy sitting there all by himself in a hawaiian shirt....

 

[Retail1LO*]

I'm thinking that even if the sale is blocked, there's a very real chance the Yotes are still in Glendale next season. I know it sounds crazy, but I too do not think that Bettman, or the league wants to move a team because someone else said so. I'm more inclined to believe they eat another seasons worth of losses while giving them an opportunity to either finally find a solid owner to keep the team here, or look to relocate it somewhere within the states. It'll be interesting for sure to watch this unfold. It's possibly we've still got a long ride ahead. I think the situation in Atlanta is only going to make things more interesting.

Can you imagine if the Yotes, stick around for another year in Glendale playing in front of these peanut gallery crowds, the league eventually throws the towel in, and Phoenix, along with Atlanta both move...and neither ends up in Winnipeg OR Quebec?
The one thing I've learned from this league, and Bettman, is that nothing we think matters, and no matter how probable or improbable something appears to be, it would be best not to take bets either way. LOL

 

[Chief Ten Bears*]

For the record, Sportsnet's Sources Say just reported they have been told that only one schedule is being made at this point, with Phoenix, not Winnipeg. Certainly odd if true.

There is talk that a drawn up schedule has Winnipeg on it and NOT Atlanta... It also has Phoenix on it.

 

[Retail1LO*]

There is talk that a drawn up schedule has Winnipeg on it and NOT Atlanta... It also has Phoenix on it.

Source, by chance?

 

[Ciao]

You display a personal vendetta against Goldwater that prohibits you from objectively acknowledging the vast amount of success they have had in this matter. Successes that frankly I did not think they were capable of. You may continue your futile campaign to diminish those successes but it will not make them go away. All it really does is undermine your effectiveness as an analyst. I mention it solely for that reason. I found your contributions much more enlightening before they were shoehorned to fit a predetermined goal.

I think this is very insightful. I always find CF's post interesting and instructive. I would like to also hear the real GSC's views free of the twisting and contortions he sometimes needlessly gives them to achieve a desired result, and sometimes with a lot less adversarial tone and respect for the views of other posters. Lots to contribute there, without the mask.

 

[Killion]

Forgive me for the long and rambling post. I so enjoyed reading Killion's that I wanted to share my thoughts as well.

Thanks, and yes, I completely agree with your opinions & assertions. They lost their edge post December 14th. It was pretty clear what their strategy was and like you I actually applauded their Hutzpah. If its legal, arguably legal & able to withstand a challenge even at closer odds than might be comfortable, then go for it. Its none of my business, I dont pay taxes in Glendale. They were elected to do what they think is best for the city & the taxpayers. They decided that the loss of the team far outweighs the costs to keep them. Fine. I get it. I even buy it to some extent. But here we are, March 27th, and the most rudimentary of elements to closing a deal of this magnitude are missing. They drew a line in the sand and Turtled when it came to deliver.

Why?. Are Beasley & Tindall completely incompetent?. What are they doing coming up with the idea in the first place, framing the deal around it, writing cheques with their mouths that their butts cant cash in floating a Bond issuance at all when they seemingly cant find & release the documentation on the Parking Rights?. Where are the letters from the law firms opining on the legality of the transaction?. Why did they negotiate an Arena Management Agreement directly with Hulsizer without first or contemporaneously receiving bids or valuations from others in the industry when clearly an open-tender process was in fact required?. At least for the Love of God go through the motions, cross the 'T's & dot the frick frackin 'i's.....

If your strategy is to get behind the wheel of a 380 ton Caterpillar 797B & simply crush everything in-sight with a might is right attitude then youd damn well better carry through with it. Yet this group?. They are acting like their barely old enough to drive. Sorry, lost my homework. For the Coyotes fans & the organization, like handing a bottle of whiskey & the car keys to 16yr olds, hopping into the backseat & asking them to give you a ride to the job.

False hope for Coyotes fans in this case I think

John McCain is ever the opportunist. Hasnt met a microphone or camera yet that he doesnt like. As Ive' posted earlier, my suspicion is their is much more to this story than just a failing hockey team in Arizona, however, Im not about to start in on that one as I do enjoy posting here.

 

[CasualFan]

...allowing Glendale to bring the legal action it needs to bring to have the courts approve the deal in advance of the sale of the bonds (which would then be at a much more palatable rate of interest). In a logical world, this is how I think it would pan out.

It really is completely illogical. I can understand initially underestimating the opponent. However, at this point, it is clear what they are up against. The strategy of Press Conferences, FAQs, and testimonials from the newspaper editors, Senators, et al is horribly misguided at best. The approach lends itself to the reasonable speculation that the city is not at all confident in their position.

In a logical world, when a fringe group of extremists attempts to obstruct a well thought plan, the obstruction is remedied quickly and absolutely. I am still stunned that Glendale opted to try to pressure Goldwater into retreat instead of extinguishing them via declaratory judgment.