Phoenix LXII: Abandon Hope all Ye Who Enter Here

[GuelphStormer]

... ya, see, right there CF, you and I disagree on that fundamental premise, and Im well aware of the fact that Im in a minority of likely less than 10% of anyone who's seriously followed the Shenanigans in Glendale, crunched the numbers.

The model is a proven failure because the Architects & Generals were beyond weak, and that includes the NHL itself. They failed the market. Compounding matters you had a Lockout in 04/05, the 2nd season in the teams new building; Gretzky & Friends; Jerry Moyes who even at the best of times in the most robust of economies has a track record of intransigence & questionable integrity (sued by his kids after he tried to raid the family trust etc); and certainly no experience in sports & entertainment ownership, marketing & promotion.

Such an opinion as mine I know is one of hubris & perhaps arrogance to some extent, that "I know better, Im smarter than everyone else" but really its not. If you strip it bare, turn it inside out & start from scratch, what I see is nothing but tremendous potential worth the effort, success more than attainable without relying upon massive taxpayer subsidies. To me, its just a matter of creativity, being inclusive. All that being said however, your absolutely correct that no one of that particular ilk has stepped up to the plate, a visionary, nor are they likely to, as precedents have been set, the boundaries pushed well beyond anything we've ever seen by municipal, state or provincial authorities.

I also think that it is still remotely possible to revive the dog. signs of life are still there. short term signs: STH have not only held on, they've grown in numbers. and medium and long term signs: interest in the game itself is there, see reports of crowded rinks right now, and the one thing I was really impressed with a couple of years ago when I first heard it ... high school hockey teams.

and then there's that rather big factor of momentum gained from their deep playoff run. but the thing about momentum is that unless you ride it hard, it dies. and not only did it die because there was no post-playoff marketing from an absentee owner, it was also viciously killed by same said owner, along with all his owner pals and the players this summer.

sure, the big picture sucks really really bad. but I'm with you in the 10% camp, killion, I think it is possible to make this work. against all odds ... including super deep pockets (public or private) to cover massive losses going forward, delicate but absolutely necessary and quick increases in prices, and a completely new marketing approach to sell the game, not the team, but the game.

I was hopeful when GJ got involved. by all accounts, he was knowledgeable, connected and enthusiastic. and i was excited to see what he had up his sleeves. sadly, it looks like he had nothing.

 

[aqib]

You cannot make that statement. The only reason we post about CoG and not the others is that this is a Business of Hockey board, not a Local Government or State Government or Federal Government comment board. Any posting such as the info for HP, MI or any other locale would be deleted unless it related to CoG and the Yotes.

You're right. However, I am sure that out of the other 29 cities that host an NHL team there are others with financial problems. We only discuss those that may result in a team moving. I was responding to one the Arizonans comment that the readers of this board don't care about Glendale's other budget issues. He's right, I don't. I want to see Canada get to 10 teams and the Coyotes moving to QC gets me one step closer.

Regarding HP, MI I would like to point out that they did hire the same financial advisor as Glendale for whatever thats worth.

 

[jfb392]

Surprised this hasn't been posted yet:

Future of Coyotes uncertain as ever

One upside of the lockout for the NHL is that it has given the league more time to deal with the mess that continues to be the Phoenix Coyotes. Whether the deal to sell the ward of the state to Greg Jamison is dead or has simply hit another in a long line of obstacles is open to conjecture, but it’s clear the future of the Coyotes is nowhere close to assured.

This much we know: that Horatio Skeete, the acting city manager for the City of Glendale, told councillors there in an in-camera meeting earlier this month the deal was to have been completed by Thursday and it was not.

That news is coming amid claims by one industry source the deal is, in fact, dead and Jamison has not been able to raise the money to purchase the team from the NHL. It was reported in early August Jamison, the former CEO of the San Jose Sharks, had come up with the final $20 million he needed to fund the $170 million purchase of the team from the NHL. (According to our source, Jamison had to come up with $70 million toward the purchase price.)

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/48566-Future-of-Coyotes-uncertain-as-ever.html

 

[CGG]

Surprised this hasn't been posted yet:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/48566-Future-of-Coyotes-uncertain-as-ever.html

Another quote from the article:

One member of the NHL’s board of governors reached by THN.com said he hasn’t heard anything one way or another on the status of the Coyotes purchase, but said he doubts the deal with Glendale will ever get done.

I wonder if that governor who doubts the deal will ever get done is none other than Gramps Jamison himself.

And another fun quote from the article:

According to a source, the prospect of suspending the franchise until it can be sold and moved is a possibility.

 

[CBJ goalie]

According to a source, the prospect of suspending the franchise until it can be sold and moved is a possibility.

Hmmm, still don't see this happening.
Most likely NHL operates it for another year - by that time Seattle a/o Quebec will have made progress and the NHL will see what further options they have.

 

[blues10]

Is that lame duck cooking on the grill in Arizona?

It is looking more and more like there is the possibility of a lame duck season occuring in Glendale. I really don't see a huge dip in tickets sales as snowbirds and those from the north east will continiue to attend games. That demographic may even attend more games knowing it is the last season that they can watch NHL hockey in Arizona.

Corporate suites were already largely empty.

The league will actually save money for each and every home game in Glendale that is not played this season helping to further mitigate the losses.

Has anyone heard from Gramps Jamison lately?

 

[cutchemist42]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-p...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Ken Campbell on the continued sad saga of the Phoenix Coyotes: "With the City of Glendale apparently unwilling to give the Coyotes any more short-term lifelines, the fate of the team is uncertain. If the season is truncated because of the lockout, perhaps the league might be willing to operate for one more year in the desert because the losses will be less than they would be for an entire season. According to a source, the prospect of suspending the franchise until it can be sold and moved is a possibility."

 

[Tommy Hawk]

You're right. However, I am sure that out of the other 29 cities that host an NHL team there are others with financial problems. We only discuss those that may result in a team moving. I was responding to one the Arizonans comment that the readers of this board don't care about Glendale's other budget issues. He's right, I don't. I want to see Canada get to 10 teams and the Coyotes moving to QC gets me one step closer.

Regarding HP, MI I would like to point out that they did hire the same financial advisor as Glendale for whatever thats worth.

We do not discuss only those that may move, we have discussed Dallas, NJD, Chicago, etc., pretty much any time an owner or a report is tossed out there about the profitability of teams, etc. Many of the other budget problems are directly caused by the Yotes and the arena.

Hmmm, still don't see this happening.
Most likely NHL operates it for another year - by that time Seattle a/o Quebec will have made progress and the NHL will see what further options they have.

Seattle is not going to be a viable market for a franchise if they are strictly tenants in the building the way the Yotes were when they moved to AZ or how the Thrashers would have been if they were sold to a local group.

 

[madhi19]

No way the NHL operate a lame duck season when they got a window of opportunity large enough to move the team. The lockout work both way if the sale to Jamison is dead and I believe it is they move the team.

 

[Uemoda]

Ken Campbell - "According to a source, the prospect of suspending the franchise until it can be sold and moved is a possibility."

I have maintained for over a year now that they've been stalling for a shot with Seattle. If a miracle couldn't be found in the interim, move them to another large U.S. market.

For whatever reason (expansion fee?) they don't want to go to QC over Seattle.

 

[powerstuck]

Hmmm, still don't see this happening.
Most likely NHL operates it for another year - by that time Seattle a/o Quebec will have made progress and the NHL will see what further options they have.

Why wait when Quebec is ready like right effin now. Season starts October 11th, I can guarantee if you move to team by Monday october 1st there we would be ready for a home game in Colisee Pepsi on 11th.

I have maintained for over a year now that they've been stalling for a shot with Seattle. If a miracle couldn't be found in the interim, move them to another large U.S. market.

For whatever reason (expansion fee?) they don't want to go to QC over Seattle.

NHL certainly has better information than people close to Peladeau and living in the city because Bettman is sure as hell Peladeau will fall for the $300M brand new expansion team (instead of a an established and well oiled machine) $200M bill for Coyotes, Islanders, Panthers, Devils, Blue Jackets and while at it Oilers.

 

[madhi19]

I have maintained for over a year now that they've been stalling for a shot with Seattle. If a miracle couldn't be found in the interim, move them to another large U.S. market.

For whatever reason (expansion fee?) they don't want to go to QC over Seattle.

They don't have a large U.S. market ready to roll meaning an arena and an owner willing to buy a team. Otherwise more than a few teams would have moved already. And what use is an expansion fee if you use it to pay the debt on the Coyotes mess anyway?

 

[cutchemist42]

300m for a team in QC is too much.

 

[Uemoda]

They don't have a large U.S. market ready to roll meaning an arena and an owner willing to buy a team. Otherwise more than a few teams would have moved already. And what use is an expansion fee if you use it to pay the debt on the Coyotes mess anyway?

Assuming Seattle is ready to take on the task, they would be a nice size city with a potential for total market success.

And the expansion fee being useful because Seattle won't pay $300 Million to help the league out. They would pass up a team at that point. Whereas Quebec will pay whatever is necessary.

So...

(Option A) Move team to QC, have no expansion teams. Make no money back from Glendale disaster.

OR

(Option B) Move team to Seattle after extra couple months' waiting. Extort Quebec and possibly Toronto for expansion fees. Make (some) money back from Glendale disater.



Which would you choose, honestly?

 

[blues10]

I am sure that a 30 day extension is on the horizon.

sonu munshi‏@smunshi

Waiting to hear back from the city about the status of the lease. E-mail reply from Bill Daly: "Nothing to report at this time." #Coyotes

 

[Slashers98]

Assuming Seattle is ready to take on the task, they would be a nice size city with a potential for total market success.

And the expansion fee being useful because Seattle won't pay $300 Million to help the league out. They would pass up a team at that point. Whereas Quebec will pay whatever is necessary.

So...

(Option A) Move team to QC, have no expansion teams. Make no money back from Glendale disaster.

OR

(Option B) Move team to Seattle after extra couple months' waiting. Extort Quebec and possibly Toronto for expansion fees. Make (some) money back from Glendale disater.



Which would you choose, honestly?

The problem with that theory is that the Coyotes might be moved within the next six months and only Quebec City has the arena and the owner to facilitate that relocation. Seattle is still 3 years away from being ready as Key Arena is not suitable for hockey right now.

 

[Confucius]

Assuming Seattle is ready to take on the task, they would be a nice size city with a potential for total market success.

And the expansion fee being useful because Seattle won't pay $300 Million to help the league out. They would pass up a team at that point. Whereas Quebec will pay whatever is necessary.

So...

(Option A) Move team to QC, have no expansion teams. Make no money back from Glendale disaster.

OR

(Option B) Move team to Seattle after extra couple months' waiting. Extort Quebec and possibly Toronto for expansion fees. Make (some) money back from Glendale disater.



Which would you choose, honestly?

Quebec would be silly to pay 200 million let alone 300 million. It is a hockey market it would be a profitable team consistently in the black. However 300 million is absurd, maybe a Toronto2 team is worth that but nowhere else. It appears the NHL doesn't want to go to Qc, which is shameful. They have a willing buyer and are currently building a new building.

 

[blues10]

Quebec would be silly to pay 200 million let alone 300 million. It is a hockey market it would be a profitable team consistently in the black. However 300 million is absurd, maybe a Toronto2 team is worth that but nowhere else. It appears the NHL doesn't want to go to Qc, which is shameful. They have a willing buyer and are currently building a new building.

I agree. Southern Ontario is likely worth $300 million. QC $170- $200. If PKP paid $190 that would be $50 million more than the NHL paid., wouldn't it?

Intersting ,if after an entire year GJ and thee JIG had only come up with $70 million. What are they planning on funding the losses with? an unsecured AMF which could now be performance based?

 

[cutchemist42]

What's Seattle worth?

 

[checkerdome]

"That news is coming amid claims by one industry source the deal is, in fact, dead and Jamison has not been able to raise the money to purchase the team from the NHL."


Ladies and gentlemen, Greg Jamison has left the building.

 

[Wheathead]

"That news is coming amid claims by one industry source the deal is, in fact, dead and Jamison has not been able to raise the money to purchase the team from the NHL."


Ladies and gentlemen, Greg Jamison has left the building.

Was he ever really there?

Also, for those lumping in with some of those U.S. markets in "danger," the Oilers aren't moving. The city and Katz have an agreement to build an arena, but Katz is trying to change the deal last minute. The city (and the taxpayers) would be completely fine with building an arena on the city's dime and having it run by Northlands (who own/run Rexall Place.) Basically, an arena will be built, they just don't know if it's going to Katz's $450M palace, or a $350M city run arena. Katz bluffed and looked stupid in doing it.

 

[cbcwpg]

The same question again... Is it better with or without the Yotes for Glendale? As it has been tell to COG, whitout them it would be catastrophic for Westgate and their businesses and a lot of lost taxes and revenue. Here's my question... Whith the lockout, it is like "No hockey team"? How will Glendale survive if it last one year?

This is a test run to see what happens to the CoG and Westgate without a team. IMO this lockout is going to last the season, so it will be as if the Coyotes have been moved. If the CoG and Westgate don't implode, then that will help answer the question and put some weight ( or take it off ) for the sky is falling messages.

 

[bobbop]

I am sure that a 30 day extension is on the horizon.

Sunnocks speculated a while back that he thought the COG would use the September 30th deadline to squeeze Jamison and close the deal. I wonder if the exact opposite is happening. Glendale may wake up Monday morning managing the arena.

 

[checkerdome]

Was he ever really there?

Also, for those lumping in with some of those U.S. markets in "danger," the Oilers aren't moving. The city and Katz have an agreement to build an arena, but Katz is trying to change the deal last minute. The city (and the taxpayers) would be completely fine with building an arena on the city's dime and having it run by Northlands (who own/run Rexall Place.) Basically, an arena will be built, they just don't know if it's going to Katz's $450M palace, or a $350M city run arena. Katz bluffed and looked stupid in doing it.

Very few people would disagree with you there.

Mr. Katz's Rexall pharmacies might take a bit of a hit in the meantime, though.

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

@JSportsnet

Despite public speculation that his deal is dead in Phx,Greg Jamison just told me he is still alive in attempting to purchase Coyotes.

Suuuure