Phoenix CXVIII: No Promises

[kihekah19*]

You are correct, signing a new lease with AEG is tantamount to admitting that Tony and all of his blustering about a super progressed new arena was nothing more than a ploy to keep STH`s interested in purchasing tickets for this season. Go back to his statements in June, he all but said we have a site picked and all that is left is to sign the legal agreements. He said, rather emphatically, that the fan base should expect an announcement before the end of summer as to where that site may be! Fast forward to today, no arena project is in play, I think we all know why! There is no new arena coming for the Coyotes! All that remains of the lies and deceptions are one possibly two years at a site that we all know is money loser for this organization. Tony has told us so! To those who continue to beat the drum that playing at GRA is "just fine" tell us all how this group of clowns intends to pay for the gallons of red ink being spilled every day in pursuit of what? The arena talk is dead, lets face it, the only question that remains is: will they relocate at the end of this year or next?

Neither

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I'd think you want that extension signed before you go public with ANOTHER arena project that going to compete with Gila.

Oh, I'm sure they're going to announce the lease extension first, or at least simultaneously with the arena announcement. But AEG is not stupid - they know what IA's stated goal is, and if the threat of the Coyotes moving to the East Valley is viewed as a complicating factor in a Glendale lease agreement, then that ship sailed from the first moment IA said they'd decided on an EV site.

And traveling further down this rabbit hole, I'm already seeing the beginnings of the "Walk all of that back" in Morgan's "Sarver and the Suns" and his "Stop asking!" pieces.

There's one thing they can't walk back - the way they very publicly threw the West Side fans under the bus.

All the crap with Glendale was business, and they can walk all that back with a good deal brokered with AEG. But the BS that Tony et al. have barfed all over the news about how all of their fans are in the East Valley is not something that can be wiped away with a Jedi mind trick. They have made their proverbial bed, and they're going to either have to sleep in it or sell it on LetGo.

They are not staying long-term in Glendale. IMO, either they're going 20 minutes east, or they're going six-and-a-half hours (by plane) northeast.

 

[mesamonster]

I get what you're saying, but the big problem is that part of the issue of getting a new arena built is figuring out with the contractors exactly how long it's going to take - not to mention the fact that if, as it appears from what I've heard on the grapevine, a new arena deal is part of a bigger commercial development, the arena might not even be the first building to go into the complex.

Devil's advocate, if IA signed a one-year lease extension, would anyone around here take that as proof that they're staying? Of course not. The conventional wisdom would be, "They're just putting off the inevitable" or "Hey, they need to get their ducks in a row for Seattle" or somesuch.

If they sign a lease extension with AEG for GRA, it's going to be at least two, maybe three, possibly even four years depending on who is contracting to build, the logistics of site planning, whether they are successful at establishing some sort of tax-district-style dodge, etc. It avails them nothing to enter into negotiations for a lease agreement until they know how long they need it to be.

Do you really think IA can afford 3-4 more years of losing big money? From his own lips, Tony has stated many times that IA cannot afford to operate at GRA given the current conditions. So what has changed in this economic reality? Serious economic carnage if they add as much as $100MM of new debt obligations to their balance sheet!

 

[Major4Boarding]

There's one thing they can't walk back - the way they very publicly threw the West Side fans under the bus.

All the crap with Glendale was business, and they can walk all that back with a good deal brokered with AEG. But the BS that Tony et al. have barfed all over the news about how all of their fans are in the East Valley is not something that can be wiped away with a Jedi mind trick. They have made their proverbial bed, and they're going to either have to sleep in it or sell it on LetGo.

Absolutely. Then again, I don't think they seek forgiveness towards them as long as West Valley folks stay loyal to the franchise. And loyalty maintained by the Franchise staying... for now.

They are not staying long-term in Glendale. IMO, either they're going 20 minutes east, or they're going six-and-a-half hours (by plane) northeast.

Sure hope that's not the case... that rapid of a timeline. Because this shapes up to be the mother of all case-building relocations

 

[mesamonster]

Neither

do you believe the team will stay longer than three years at GRA if there is no new arena? I don`t!

 

[powerstuck]

Do you really think IA can afford 3-4 more years of losing big money? From his own lips, Tony has stated many times that IA cannot afford to operate at GRA given the current conditions. So what has changed in this economic reality? Serious economic carnage if they add as much as $100MM of new debt obligations to their balance sheet!

Well, expansion bought them one year at least. $16M in expansion fee is better than one $15M subsidy from Glendale...so there is that.

 

[Govment Cheese]

Plans within plans.
1. First NHL priority is to not screw-up the second half of the 1 Billion dollars in expansion fees. Until the BOG has that second 500M Coyotes aren't leaving Arizona. NHL keeping the Coyotes afloat to buy more time for Seattle. Who they want to be the 32nd team.

2. Keep the "we was run out of our building" narrative as long as possible. So IA can play the we are leaving and taking are puck with us scam. Using Quebec as leverage. See if there are any suckers around foolish enough to build them an arena.

Don't foresee any changes in status quo until one of two things happen. IA finds there fool (new owner, new arena and/or both). Seattle expansion happens, all bets are off. Just a matter of when the NHL wants to cut it's losses.

 

[member 157595]

As an outsider to this thread, and someone that is trying to know the facts here, this is my current understanding. I would greatly appreciate if anyone can help me confirm or deny any/all of these statements:

- The current lease at GRA ends after this season
- An extension of said lease could be agreed upon by the Coyotes and AEG, as COG has yielded negotiation rights to the arena manager as per the agreement between AEG and COG
- The Coyotes have explored/are exploring a variety of possible new arena options, from partnering with ASU to building a new arena on tribal lands
- At this time, the Coyotes have picked out a location east of Phoenix proper in which an arena is to be built in case they are unable to remain in Glendale
- Since it is logistically impossible to build a new NHL-caliber hockey arena from the ground up in such a short time frame, the Coyotes need to do one of the following prior to moving into a hypothetical new home; 1) agree to a temporary solution w/AEG to play in GRA until said new arena is built, or 2) negotiate with some other arena owner in the general vicinity to share and/or use their arena in a temporary capacity.
- If neither a temporary lease extension at GRA nor an agreement to use another arena is/are signed by the time the current lease expires, the Coyotes have nowhere to play at that time since a hypothetical new arena in the area will not yet be complete

Are these statements correct?

 

[TheLegend]

Whatever happened to the guy who tried to by the Islanders then bought into the Coyotes for a ridiculous sum of money. Is he even still around?

He still the majority owner.

in light of the recent statement that the team is not going anywhere and is here to stay, it's laughable that no lease extension has been announced by now. i mean, seriously, my dog could negotiate a lease extension. if the team is indeed 'here to stay' then come on, get it done BEFORE the start of this season instead of sending out a silly, meaningless statement.

other than blustering from leblanc and bettman, there is absolutely zero evidence that indicates this franchise will not be playing in vegas next year. none. nothing. nadda.

Actually you should be saying blustering from BoH posters. By the way..... I don't see anywhere in that letter where they say they are't going anywhere. Not even across town.

And if your dog is that good in negotiating an arena lease extension, then you seem to imply it must be so easy there shouldn't be an urgency to notify said posters.

nala +14

With $12 million of that coming off next season we'll have lots of room again to steal great prospects off the other cap strangled teams.

As an outsider to this thread, and someone that is trying to know the facts here, this is my current understanding. I would greatly appreciate if anyone can help me confirm or deny any/all of these statements:

- The current lease at GRA ends after this season
- An extension of said lease could be agreed upon by the Coyotes and AEG, as COG has yielded negotiation rights to the arena manager as per the agreement between AEG and COG
- The Coyotes have explored/are exploring a variety of possible new arena options, from partnering with ASU to building a new arena on tribal lands
- At this time, the Coyotes have picked out a location east of Phoenix proper in which an arena is to be built in case they are unable to remain in Glendale
- Since it is logistically impossible to build a new NHL-caliber hockey arena from the ground up in such a short time frame, the Coyotes need to do one of the following prior to moving into a hypothetical new home; 1) agree to a temporary solution w/AEG to play in GRA until said new arena is built, or 2) negotiate with some other arena owner in the general vicinity to share and/or use their arena in a temporary capacity.
- If neither a temporary lease extension at GRA nor an agreement to use another arena is/are signed by the time the current lease expires, the Coyotes have nowhere to play at that time since a hypothetical new arena in the area will not yet be complete

Are these statements correct?

Yes..... they are.

 

[Mightygoose]

In my opinion, its easy to walk it back when the plans with ASU, Sarver/Stanton (Downtown), or Tribe never materialize and staying at GRA is easily consumed by the masses as the "only option". Because the only other option is they are gone... entirely. So its easier for consumption (and forgivable) when "Glendale is better than not having them at all". I know you know, or can see that happening. Some others, though, may not.

And traveling further down this rabbit hole, I'm already seeing the beginnings of the "Walk all of that back" in Morgan's "Sarver and the Suns" and his "Stop asking!" pieces.

That's definitely plausible re: working out a new agreement with GRA as they'll be dealing with AEG, not the city.

If that's the real endgame, then why not firm up now? Some thought that this new arena talk was to get the city to back off the RFP and go back to the team with favourable terms. If that was the case, it was really ineffective.

It's still a question, at least to me is there really a deal out there that can satisfy both AEG and the Coyotes? Is there really enough revenue to go around?

If so, then they're best to firm up with them long term, not year and year to figure things out or bringing a 2-3 to a mythical new arena that may not and likely not happen.

The best local solution I think is the one that's been sitting in front of them the entire time and none of this new arena, plots of dirt foolish talk.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

- The current lease at GRA ends after this season

Correct.

- An extension of said lease could be agreed upon by the Coyotes and AEG, as COG has yielded negotiation rights to the arena manager as per the agreement between AEG and COG

Correct.

- The Coyotes have explored/are exploring a variety of possible new arena options, from partnering with ASU to building a new arena on tribal lands

Possibly correct. The Coyotes, over the past few months, have been talking with various tribal groups about inclusion in multi-tenant commercial real estate developments. They have also made noises with ASU and downtown Phoenix, but the extent of any actual negotiations or progression past casual conversations and trial balloons is unknown.

- At this time, the Coyotes have picked out a location east of Phoenix proper in which an arena is to be built in case they are unable to remain in Glendale

Somewhat correct. The Coyotes have stated multiple times that their first (and, by implication, only) in-state option is to build a new arena on the east side of the Valley. Their comments about Glendale, if taken at face value, indicate that a long-term home at Gila River Arena is not an acceptable option. The Coyotes have publicly said they have chosen one particular site but since that public proclamation, no details have been released and no specifics have been alluded to.

- Since it is logistically impossible to build a new NHL-caliber hockey arena from the ground up in such a short time frame, the Coyotes need to do one of the following prior to moving into a hypothetical new home; 1) agree to a temporary solution w/AEG to play in GRA until said new arena is built, or 2) negotiate with some other arena owner in the general vicinity to share and/or use their arena in a temporary capacity.

Correct. Option (1) is the only realistic one. The Suns at Talking Stick Resort Arena would theoretically be open to negotiations but the cost to play there would be astronomical compared to a short-term deal with AEG at GRA.

- If neither a temporary lease extension at GRA nor an agreement to use another arena is/are signed by the time the current lease expires, the Coyotes have nowhere to play at that time since a hypothetical new arena in the area will not yet be complete

Correct; however, if a temporary lease extension at GRA is not in place by the trade deadline, then it can be reasonably assumed that the Coyotes will be relocating to a new market, IMO.

 

[Killion]

Well, expansion bought them one year at least. $16M in expansion fee is better than one $15M subsidy from Glendale...so there is that.

Assuming they see their cut of that, sure. Their into the NHL for a whole lotta lettuce. Based on past precedents the league could simply withhold those funds & apply to them to monies owed.

With $12 million of that coming off next season we'll have lots of room again to steal great prospects off the other cap strangled teams.

Now this I would like to see attempted for just the sheer brazen gall of it & what would surely follow... extra points for targeting the Calgary Flames & Brian Burke in particular. That'd be justice, karma. Burkie blows up real good.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

As an outsider to this thread, and someone that is trying to know the facts here, this is my current understanding. I would greatly appreciate if anyone can help me confirm or deny any/all of these statements:

- The current lease at GRA ends after this season
- An extension of said lease could be agreed upon by the Coyotes and AEG, as COG has yielded negotiation rights to the arena manager as per the agreement between AEG and COG
- The Coyotes have explored/are exploring a variety of possible new arena options, from partnering with ASU to building a new arena on tribal lands
- At this time, the Coyotes have picked out a location east of Phoenix proper in which an arena is to be built in case they are unable to remain in Glendale
- Since it is logistically impossible to build a new NHL-caliber hockey arena from the ground up in such a short time frame, the Coyotes need to do one of the following prior to moving into a hypothetical new home; 1) agree to a temporary solution w/AEG to play in GRA until said new arena is built, or 2) negotiate with some other arena owner in the general vicinity to share and/or use their arena in a temporary capacity.
- If neither a temporary lease extension at GRA nor an agreement to use another arena is/are signed by the time the current lease expires, the Coyotes have nowhere to play at that time since a hypothetical new arena in the area will not yet be complete

Are these statements correct?

Yes to all, but you'll find the majority in this thread (myself included) do not think highly of the ownership group right now, and take anything they say with not just a grain of salt, but a sodium producing factory of salt, especially when no specifics are given.

WE HAVE A LOCATION!

Thats great, where?

uhhhhhhh its a secret.

 

[Fairview]

Correct.



Correct.



Possibly correct. The Coyotes, over the past few months, have been talking with various tribal groups about inclusion in multi-tenant commercial real estate developments. They have also made noises with ASU and downtown Phoenix, but the extent of any actual negotiations or progression past casual conversations and trial balloons is unknown.



Somewhat correct. The Coyotes have stated multiple times that their first (and, by implication, only) in-state option is to build a new arena on the east side of the Valley. Their comments about Glendale, if taken at face value, indicate that a long-term home at Gila River Arena is not an acceptable option. The Coyotes have publicly said they have chosen one particular site but since that public proclamation, no details have been released and no specifics have been alluded to.



Correct. Option (1) is the only realistic one. The Suns at Talking Stick Resort Arena would theoretically be open to negotiations but the cost to play there would be astronomical compared to a short-term deal with AEG at GRA.



Correct; however, if a temporary lease extension at GRA is not in place by the trade deadline, then it can be reasonably assumed that the Coyotes will be relocating to a new market, IMO.

Just curious, why do you select the trade deadline in the above comment?

A little up stream you used several last minute lease agreements from the past to support the notion that a lease extension can and might likely be signed anytime, including next summer.

IMO the lease should likely be signed sooner rather than later..I mean, it would be nice for the fans to actually see some kind of proof that the team will stay past this season.
The idea floating around here that the lease extension had/has to be signed immediately is false.Immediately has passed. Immediately would have been when AEG took over, in July...3 months ago, this is 1/4 of a year later...not immediately. I think it should be signed before the season starts. I don't believe it will, though.The extension will only be signed if or when a state subsidy package is offered.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Just curious, why do you select the trade deadline in the above comment?

A little up stream you used several last minute lease agreements from the past to support the notion that a lease extension can and might likely be signed anytime, including next summer.

The trade deadline is the end of February. If there is complete silence on the arena and/or lease fronts by the beginning of March, then IMO there are no last minute deals coming to save the franchise.

My point in bringing up the "quickie" deals that IA has been able to do was more along the lines of saying that early October is not panic-button time. Early March is a different story altogether.

IMO the lease should likely be signed sooner rather than later..I mean, it would be nice for the fans to actually see some kind of proof that the team will stay past this season.

Again, though, if they sign a one-year lease extension, what kind of proof is that, really?

Here at BoH, that would get the usual suspects talking about Seattle. Among the fanbase, it would be an aggravating extension of the same abject temporary holding pattern this team has been in for eight years. At this point, the only thing that is going to satisfy the fanbase and, in a wider sense, the market itself is some sort of permanent resolution one way or the other.

 

[member 157595]

Thank you to all that replied; it was much appreciated.

Guess there's not a lot that can be done except wait...

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

If the shovels went in the ground tomorrow, I doubt the arena could be built in time for 2017/2018 anyways. This is what I expected as a straight press release in August.

"We're pleased to announce a two year contract with AEG at GRA. As we look to move the coyotes forward in the Phoenix area, we have made the commitment to the market to let our great fans know that this will not be our final year in the area. People have been rooting for us to fail ever since we came to Phoenix, but we have persevered. We look forward to sharing further plans down the road for a new location for the coyotes in the Phoenix area, but in the meantime our fans can rest easy that we are showing a commitment to this market. The lease we are signing can also be mutually extended if we cannot get a new location built in time."

 

[BattleBorn]

I don't know about that. While having a resolution may seem like it's a great thing, a resolution that winds up moving the franchise would be bittersweet. I found myself saying that a lot in the last few months of the expansion thing, but the negative potential resolution would have been awful.

Year to year seems like the second best case scenario outside of a new place, and well ahead of them playing elsewhere.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I don't know about that. While having a resolution may seem like it's a great thing, a resolution that winds up moving the franchise would be bittersweet. I found myself saying that a lot in the last few months of the expansion thing, but the negative potential resolution would have been awful.

Year to year seems like the second best case scenario outside of a new place, and well ahead of them playing elsewhere.

Not for me.

It's hard to describe to people who haven't lived through it first-hand, but after eight years straight of living year-to-year, the burnout for fans is immense. I think maybe Quebec City fans can come close to understanding because of how long they've been on the hook, but they lack the added layer of outsider schadenfreude that rests atop the Coyotes fan experience like a fine layer of Taco Bell fire poops.

Maybe my age factors into it a bit too. I was in my mid 30s when I first became a Coyotes STH and I'm now on the downhill run to 50. The energy required to stay fully involved in a precarious situation of this type is prodigious - I find I have less of it every passing year. The older I get, the less vested I am in weathering so much misery.

It's limbo, it's purgatory, and the longer it lasts the more it sucks. Resolution - one way or the other - is a tremendously attractive thing for me.

 

[TheLegend]

Thank you to all that replied; it was much appreciated.

Guess there's not a lot that can be done except wait...

Yep.... I've been saying that for months now. But megathread will be megathread.

Now this I would like to see attempted for just the sheer brazen gall of it & what would surely follow... extra points for targeting the Calgary Flames & Brian Burke in particular. That'd be justice, karma. Burkie blows up real good.

The trade boards would implode for sure.

Here's the thing, though. You'll have a few key players coming off their ELCs (Duclair, Martinook) RFAs (Stone) and UFAs (Hanzal, Doan??) next year. And a couple more the following. Most are going to warrant significant raises if the team hits the playoffs. OEL is a couple more years away from that, but at the current rate he's playing he'll be in the Chris Weber-PK Subban area of astrobucks (had to use that term ).

 

[_Del_]

The only real reason I can see to hold off from either party's position is to:

• Figure out if the new arena is happening and waiting until that point to decide whether or not the team stays in Arizona because IA doesn't think Glendale is a long term winning solution.
• Figure out how to keep the team in Glendale long term because IA thinks they can make it work in Glendale.

Are there any other alternatives I'm not thinking of?

It's 100% the first one, imo." A temp lease in Glendale is unlikely to be as profitable as a new market. I really want a EV arena deal, but until I know it's going to happen, why extend a temp lease when my back up plan is out of town and would be more profitable".

It seems pretty straight forward to me

 

[WildGopher]

It's hard to describe to people who haven't lived through it first-hand, but after eight years straight of living year-to-year, the burnout for fans is immense.

Arizona fans take too much grief here sometimes, so I was looking for a reply to give Arizona fans some props for their loyalty. This one's as good as any.

I do business in Arizona and have attended quite a few games there. Not just 'Yotes (in both buildings), but the old minor league Mustangs in the Veterans Memorial Coliseum, and ASU when it was a club team. You could find great fans of the sport at any of those games. You want to see hockey passion? Hard to top anything you'd see even up north than watching the old Arizona State and U of Arizona club teams going at it at Veterans, as I had the pleasure to see. That was a war! And not just on the ice, but darn near a war in the stands, too!

I'm heading back this winter and hope to bring my nephews along to see a 'Yotes game, and if I can justify stretching the visit another day, maybe an ASU game, too. The great thing about taking kids to watch a game there or anywhere is that they don't get caught up in the fact that they're in the South or they're watching a shaky franchise, they just love watching hockey.

The company I work with down there has an HR director who plays rec hockey like I do - she's a native Arizonan, but no different from me in her love of the sport (except with my advancing age, she's probably better than me on the ice!). Sure, there are way too few hockey fanatics like that, and maybe the market won't succeed in the end. But you've got pockets of great fans, too. I lost teams I was a fan of - the North Stars, the Fighting Saints (twice!) - and it's no fun. I think fans in Quebec and Winnipeg and Hartford, understand that, too, although they understandably resent having their teams jerked out from under them the way they were. Here's props to the good fans in Arizona who hang in there through thick and thin. You definitely deserved better than what the league and some of your owners delivered.

 

[enarwpg]

Yeah theyve really gone full-on Berserker in castigating, chastising the COG and as pride goeth before the fall, how do they walk all of that back?
....
Credibility is shot to Hell. He's a hindrance, an obstacle, a liability.

LeBluster™ steps aside and a new player drops in, taking the lead role of providing disingenuous statements about a new arena, being there for the long term, making deals with anyone with a pulse and a buck, etc.... But saying and doing whatever needs to be done to smooth things over with those that matter.

 

[mesamonster]

LeBlusterâ„¢ steps aside and a new player drops in, taking the lead role of providing disingenuous statements about a new arena, being there for the long term, making deals with anyone with a pulse and a buck, etc.... But saying and doing whatever needs to be done to smooth things over with those that matter.

Couldn`t agree more! Lebluster needs to leave, he has caused more problems and issues than the franchise itself. Without his lies and and false innuendos the franchise on its face would look so much more professional than it does! he is the butt of all the jokes and negative impressions that have come to a crescendo in the last year. He alone has created the image that this is loser franchise, when EVERYONE knows that he is not genuine you have an enormous credibility problem with your fan base. Tony, do yourself a favor and pull the plug, we will all be better off if you show the courage to resign your ill fated position. Honestly, bring someone in who can inspire confidence and not the disdain that Tony has created!

 

[TheLegend]

^^^^^^ Ain't gonna happen boys and girls.


And with that....... the man speaks.... (video clip with article)

http://www.abc15.com/sports/sports-blogs-local/arizona-coyotes-co-owner-anthony-leblanc-provides-update-on-new-arena

Cue the "two weeks" jokes.........

Interesting quote from the text portion....

One thing is certain: The Coyotes don't expect to stay in Glendale beyond the 2018-19 season when arena contract with the city is set to expire.

Was not mentioned or confirmed in the video interview, but if true they already have an extension in place.