Philly not as big a hockey town as it is thought to be?

[mucker*]

I'd say "pull back from the Koolaid, Lou, it's not doing you any good." You do know that for the first time in 12 years, the Flyers did not make the playoffs. If you compare a fan base from teams (except the Bruins) competing in the playoffs and teams that aren't, you're going to find greater interest on the part of the teams still competing for the cup.

If you go to games in Washington, New York, New Jersey, Tampa Bay, Miami, Pittsburgh, Toronto or Vancouver for that matter, you will find a remarkable out-of-town base of supporters for the Flyers. Deserved or not, the Flyers attracted fans during their Broad St. Bully days that continue to wear the teams colors (or hand them down to their kids). You may note that transplanted Philadelphians contribute to this as well.

The fan base is not as avid or as knowledgable as in Canada for a variety of reasons that stem from the way hockey is looked at in the 2 countries.

But I think that if you did away with the NHL and started over putting franchises in N. America based strictly on the volume of fan interest and support, I think that, among U.S. cities, Philly would earn its franchise right after Detroit (Hockey Town) and New York, along with Denver, Dallas, Minneapolis-St. Paul and perhaps Boston. I would put Philly as a market ahead of Buffalo and way ahead of Pittsburgh.

I think that Philly fans proved themselves this year to skeptics by selling out or coming close in support of the worst Flyer team in the franchise's 40 year history.

Disagree.
The Flyers have loads of fans in Washington, NJ, and Long Island, along with the transplant areas, however they don't have tons in Pittsburgh, they have a good amount hardly dominant at the Rangers and in Boston because those three are real hockey areas.

Pittsburgh is an outstanding hockey town, they are a small market, when the team is bad or had a fire sale not enough bucks to support but when they show they are competitive and won't be selling players, you see it's as big a hockey town as any in the league.

 

[mucker*]

Probably Buffalo..........

Buffalo, the Bills get horrible attendance.
Always have, and like the Devils they use excuses about stadium size, but in a sport that is played 8 times a year, when you have the weekend to moblize the entire western NY and Canada vicinity there is no excuse for not selling out.

Most NFL cities have waiting lists in Buffalo they have 20k empty seats.
The NFL is behind the NHL but keep in mind it border Canada, this is the only town that is this way.

 

[mucker*]

I do not know people don't acknowledge New York as being a great hockey town.
One of the orignal six teams, MSG is always sold out, full of passionate fans, their problem is New York is like no other town, it is so big, diverse, things can get hidden.
This is one of the best US markets, hands down.

 

[mucker*]

Not even close. The Bills RULE Western New York.

In America, Football is a much, much more popular sport than hockey. Easily. That doesn't mean those fans aren't hockey fans, and that they don't support the team. It just means that hockey isn't #1.

Football = #1 in America. More than baseball. More than basketball. And certainly much mroe than hockey. That will never change.

I think Buffalo is a pretty average sports and football town, most NFL cities have a waiting list for season tickets, I don't care unless you were the Bengals of the 90s, having 20k empty seats you can't say you are a better football town and if you do, then it says all you need to know about the market, fair weather.

 

[mucker*]

Boston and Detroit were always the two cities where it was viewed that football was the #4 sport, at least thats how it was 10 years ago.

And only because the football team was pitiful.
All things even, the Lions are number in Detroit and the Pats number 1a in Boston.

The reason the NHL was more popular in Boston was due to the Pats being a complete doormat, not bad, medicore, a doormat.

Since the Pats have a good solid owner and stability, before they were a minor league franchise, they will never slip below the 1a spot.

That was a mere product of being the worst team in football in a 3rd rate ownership.

 

[mucker*]

In Pittsburgh if the Pirates ever managed to become an annual playoff contender the Steelers would have competition. Many people forget since the NFL exploded onto the scene in a huge way in the 90s that Pittsburgh at one time lived and died with the Pirates. The Penguins have a strong following, but no doubt in my mind if the Pirates ever awake from their ownership nightmare and become a MLB team again they would step ahead of the Penguins.

How come then when the Pirates were last a playoff team, they didn't sell out but had 10K empty seats?

You know what confuses me about PIT, I know it's a strong hockey town with football number 1, but back in the 70s and 60s before the Steelers won four in a row, wasn't PIT a baseball town first?

Wasn't football and the Steelers second, because like the Patriots, they were an awful team?

I'm wondering if PIT mirrors Boston in that way, another sport, baseball, over football until the football team becomes good and then the sport overtakes for good.

 

[mucker*]

It seems hard to believe because it isn't true. The Patriots have been more popular than the Bruins for some time now.

The only reason the Pats weren't is because they had Bill Bidwill type ownership, not only were they a bad team but they had no stabilit.

 

[mucker*]

Kids are different. Kids don't really know any better. We're not talking about kids in this thread.

The Flyers are virtually ignored other than the times I mentioned, unless there is a big free agent signing. You'll hear things here and there. We have our share of fans who treat the Flyers as the #1 team, a lot of them hate the Eagles. Some of them are, most of us (at least the people I know) resent the people who walk into the building, get drunk and are completely clueless.

I'm not downplaying Flyers fans, I'm downplaying Eagles fans who pretend they're Flyers fans. Basically 90% of the Delaware Valley. They're very ignorant, and they think they invented football (and hockey - when Eagles fans talk about the Flyers, they act like they know everything about the sport as if they watch more than 4 games between October and February)

Let me ask, are the Flyers more popular than the Sixers or Phillies?

As a person not from the Philly area it looks as if PHI is a football number one town but that hockey is the number two sport.
From your arugment it sounds more like what your saying is PHI is all about the Eagles, that the Flyers aren't that popular, but it's due to the insane obsession with the Eagles, as opposed to the Flyers aren't big due to the Eagles AND Sixers and Phillies.

 

[mucker*]

I made the claim because I lived in, and observed, the environment for all of those years. You flatly told me "it wasn't true" and I asked for any kind of explanation to hear your take on it and you won't elaborate. I'm well aware that this isn't science, doctor. It's just observation. But I did live in Boston all those years and still do. On the North Shore it was all about the Bruins until at least 1994 the Patriots were lower on the pole. Did you live here? If so, whereabouts and what was the interest like in your neck of the woods here? I'm actually interested in your observation since neither one of us is going to be able pull out actual stats on such a thing.

The Boston globe had a story http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/1990/04/15/who_are_the_boston_fans/
On their fans.
The Bruins were more popular but only due to the Patriots being a minor league team and franchise.
It was not a case of simply being medicore, like the Bruins, this team was a laugher, had no franchise, tradition, and ownership was bad not just in building a winner, but in keeping the team afloat.

That is why the Bruins were more popular and with the Kraft family now having an NFL management the Bruins will be number 4 or at best 3 with the Celtics.

 

[mucker*]

The Rangers aren't even in the top 5 teams in NY.

#01. Yankees (MLB)
#02. Giants (NFL)
#03. Mets (MLB)
#04. Jets (NFL)
#05. Knicks (NBA)
#06. Rangers (NHL)
#07. Nets (NBA)
#08. Devils(NHL)
#09. Islanders(NHL)
#10. Red Bull New York (MLS)

Although you probably will see more Rangers fans around than Knicks fans these days. That's because the Knicks suck though. Even saying that, the Knicks get much more press and talk than the Rangers do. The Rangers didn't even make the back page of the paper when they clinched the playoffs. Instead the Yankees losing the 2nd of 162 games made it.

That said, yes, in NY the Yankees are more popular than both Football teams. The Mets you may be able to say are more popular than the Jets but definitley less than the Giants. Rangers and Knicks I guess you can interchange. Nets are NJ but will be NY soon. Then there's quite a few Devils fans in NY, followed by Islanders, but then again, you go to Long Island and there's a ton of em. So they may be interchangable. Then Red Bull New York as no one ever even speaks of soccer.

In NY you should know that a large portion of the football watching population are not fans of the Jets or Giants.

I would say it is hard to compare NY sports to other towns because NY is big and diverse.
The Yankees and Mets rule, much like the Sox do in Boston, and then you have football, after that the Rangers and Knicks I think are in close battle as both have large fanbases.
The Rangers are not an ignored team, they have one of the best fanbases in the NHL and NY is one of the best NHL towns, it simply isn't passionate about 3 teams.

If NY was not a hockey town they would not have the league office or three teams in that city AND the NHL would not have been at it's most popular after 1994.

 

[mucker*]

And the Rangers have been around longer than all those teams except for the Yankees and they're only the #6 team? Pretty pathetic. NY hardly deserves 1 team instead they get 3.

I suggest you read above.

 

[trenton1]

The Boston globe had a story http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/1990/04/15/who_are_the_boston_fans/
On their fans.
The Bruins were more popular but only due to the Patriots being a minor league team and franchise.
It was not a case of simply being medicore, like the Bruins, this team was a laugher, had no franchise, tradition, and ownership was bad not just in building a winner, but in keeping the team afloat.

That is why the Bruins were more popular and with the Kraft family now having an NFL management the Bruins will be number 4 or at best 3 with the Celtics.

That's a fair assessment and I definately agree that the best the B's could ever do at this point is third. Even being in the hugely popular NFL it was still a long, slow climb for the Pats to get even--and pass the B's and Celtics though, and the reasons you state are definately accurate--people always wanted them to succeed, no doubt. And the B's and Celtics lent a huge hand by respectively stinking up the joint since about 1992-93.

P.S. I didn't know you had posted this--I responded to your PM as well.

 

[xDerekRx]

Buffalo, the Bills get horrible attendance.
Always have, and like the Devils they use excuses about stadium size, but in a sport that is played 8 times a year, when you have the weekend to moblize the entire western NY and Canada vicinity there is no excuse for not selling out.

Most NFL cities have waiting lists in Buffalo they have 20k empty seats.
The NFL is behind the NHL but keep in mind it border Canada, this is the only town that is this way.

You are very wrong here. The Bills large stadium is a prefect excuse. There are also factors like the orginization constantly screwing over the fanbase, the awful on field product and late season opponents.

The Bills have continued to support the team over the last 7 years, all of which have been awful. The Bills were blacked out last year near the end of the season YET had the 3rd highest attendance of the day. Simple ignorance here. Buffalo even supports the Lacrosse team.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Let me ask, are the Flyers more popular than the Sixers or Phillies?

As a person not from the Philly area it looks as if PHI is a football number one town but that hockey is the number two sport.
From your arugment it sounds more like what your saying is PHI is all about the Eagles, that the Flyers aren't that popular, but it's due to the insane obsession with the Eagles, as opposed to the Flyers aren't big due to the Eagles AND Sixers and Phillies.

Flyers>Sixers here, ALWAYS. Anyone who claims otherwise is crazy, the Sixers are a joke now and even when they were good the Flyers were bigger. As for Phils...it's hard to rank a sport's popularity when there's no direct competition. Opening day gets big coverage, as it does everywhere, and spring training and all that do, that's the last couple months of the Flyers season. But that's all past the trade deadline and the Flyers by that point are typically guaranteed a top 5 playoff spot. Once the playoffs start and the Flyers are in 'em all attention is back on the orange and black. The Phils otherwise are in no direct competition for the fanbase in town.

 

[mucker*]

Flyers>Sixers here, ALWAYS. Anyone who claims otherwise is crazy, the Sixers are a joke now and even when they were good the Flyers were bigger. As for Phils...it's hard to rank a sport's popularity when there's no direct competition. Opening day gets big coverage, as it does everywhere, and spring training and all that do, that's the last couple months of the Flyers season. But that's all past the trade deadline and the Flyers by that point are typically guaranteed a top 5 playoff spot. Once the playoffs start and the Flyers are in 'em all attention is back on the orange and black. The Phils otherwise are in no direct competition for the fanbase in town.

Any reason why Flyers>Sixers, most towns it's not that way.

 

[RyanMcD29]

The NFL is behind the NHL but keep in mind it border Canada, this is the only town that is this way.

Detroit.

 

[EbencoyE]

Detroit.

Nah. I think the Lions would probably sell out if they made the playoffs.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Nah. I think the Lions would probably sell out if they made the playoffs.

My guess is that he was providing another example of a border team, aside from Buffalo.

 

[ColoradoHockeyFan]

Most NFL cities have waiting lists in Buffalo they have 20k empty seats.
The NFL is behind the NHL but keep in mind it border Canada, this is the only town that is this way.

No, it isn't.

 

[ColoradoHockeyFan]

Nah. I think the Lions would probably sell out if they made the playoffs.

It doesn't even matter if they've been selling out or not. The Lions and the NFL are MUCH bigger than the Red Wings. Much.

My guess is that he was providing another example of a border team, aside from Buffalo.

We can only hope that's what he was saying. It's his only chance of being correct in that post.

 

[Jester]

I never said that hockey was more popular in N.J than Philly thats just down right stupid to even ponder that. The point is that Philadelphia loves the Flyers but not the NHL the fans not all and not you but in general don't know or follow the rest or the NHL. Watch the ratings Philly won't be near the top U.S T.V market and neither will N.Y/N.Y unless the Rangers go deep in the playoffs.

Historically the Philly market has been one of the strongest non-home TV markets in the NHL. that's pretty much a fact.

Are Flyer fans more "Flyer fans" than "NHL fans?" yes. however, the problem with your thesis is that statement holds true for the entire league below the northern border. Comparatively, Philly is one of the strongest "NHL markets" that exist in the US, but to judge it based on the market watching games involving out of market teams is silly.

not to mention you're apparently unaware of the main issue the NHL has: there is no such thing as a national TV market for the NHL... it doesn't really exist anywhere, which is why national ratings are always so low. the fans of the two teams watch and pretty much no one else does.

 

[Jester]

Let me ask, are the Flyers more popular than the Sixers or Phillies?

As a person not from the Philly area it looks as if PHI is a football number one town but that hockey is the number two sport.
From your arugment it sounds more like what your saying is PHI is all about the Eagles, that the Flyers aren't that popular, but it's due to the insane obsession with the Eagles, as opposed to the Flyers aren't big due to the Eagles AND Sixers and Phillies.

Yes, the Flyers are more popular than the Sixers or Phillies. However, I will freely admit that if the Sixers and Phillies were ever to become competent franchises, they would probably eclipse the Flyers. I'm 26 and i can only remember ONE SINGLE playoff involving the Phils ever... that matters when you're talking about these things.

Simple demographics (which we really don't need to get into) would favor the Sixers if they ever truly got going.

The other aspect of all of this is that a TON of the support for the Flyers comes from outside of the city itself. The suburbs of Philly, southern Jersey, and Delaware (where I grew up)... the team is tremendously popular in those (higher income) areas. I will also note that there has been an explosion of ice and roller hockey rinks in the area the last 15 years and many more kids are growing up playing ice and roller hockey than was possible when I was growing up.

The truth of the Flyer fans is that they are -- arguably -- the most rabid and devoted of the group. Eagle fans have a tremendous rep at the moment, but I'm not an Eagle fan and have a somewhat more objective view on them I think... they love the Eagles, but it wasn't so long ago that they had games blacked out locally when the team wasn't doing so well. In the past, the Flyers have maintained their attendance through 5 years of missing the playoffs... if that were to happen again it would be interesting to see how the more corporate ticket buyer would handle the situation.

I think GKJ's criticism of Philly stems more from a naivete with regard to american markets and expectations. Everyone gets their panties in a bunch because talk radio doesn't devote a ton of time to the Flyers in the philly area... while at the same time 610 broadcasts EVERY Flyer game and has a post-game show on top of that... they've also had more than a few guys through the years who were more than happy to talk about the NHL. Comcast Sports Net was essentially put together to air Flyer games and gives the team a tremendous amount of coverage... they air most of the games, have talk-shows dedicated to the Flyers, aired taped games during the lockout, cover the team extensively on their SC type show, etc., etc.

Flyers are a very well covered team and to critcize Philly because media coverage doesn't begin to focus on them exclusively (because they do cover them closely in the fall) until the spring is silly. You have a football team, basketball team, baseball team, and 5 college basketball teams that deserve and get coverage in the city... there's not much to talk about during the summer OTHER than UFAs... and they pick their spots during the fall and early spring when you have all these other sports going on.

 

[RyanMcD29]

We can only hope that's what he was saying. It's his only chance of being correct in that post.

Yep I was making the border city connection in my post

 

[The Great Juan]

I grew up in South Jersey, have a lot of friends who are Philly sports fans, and get the Philly papers. Flyers are easily the second most popular team in Philly behind the Eagles. However, if the Phillies can make the playoffs then they might give the Flyers a run for no 2, but I have a feeling that the Flyers will be a much better club next year.

 

[Jester]

I grew up in South Jersey, have a lot of friends who are Philly sports fans, and get the Philly papers. Flyers are easily the second most popular team in Philly behind the Eagles. However, if the Phillies can make the playoffs then they might give the Flyers a run for no 2, but I have a feeling that the Flyers will be a much better club next year.

Peter Gammons wrote an article a couple years ago talking about how great a baseball city Philly can be... it never has in my lifetime as a sport fan with awareness other than the '93 Phils, which came out of nowhere... so i have no idea if Gammons' thesis is true or not. I tend to believe that Philly is a great sports town regardless of the sport, but that there would be more people interested in and watching the Phils on a day-to-day basis if they ever developed any consistent winning.

What the Flyers have going for them is a very very devoted fanbase in the city... at the moment I'm abroad, but one of my favorite things about the city is showing up in almost any bar in the city after a game with your jersey on and people asking about the game. People across the board generally care about the Flyers, which is all you can ask at the end of the day.