Other Sports: Philadelphia Phillies: The Road To .500 Continues Into Red October (2024 Edition)

[JojoTheWhale]

As expected, Utley did a lot better with the public votes than the private ones. It's mostly the cantankerous old pricks that vote by arbitrary thresholds staying private. Hell, we've got them here still but at least they say it in public.

Told you!

It's either someone who a) didn't want to "waste" a vote on someone who was easily going to get in and give that vote to a player more on the fence, which is stupid. Or b) is a contrarian. Or c) is a terrible person for reasons we all can understand but I won't type out for fear of TOS

That person wants attention, so I don't even care who it was. I mostly want to know if they had a vote when Rivera was on the ballot. Because then the unanimous bullshit doesn't even hold up.

Best case is a guy who had 10 votes and used them all, but not on him because he knew he'd fly by. Then it's still dumb as hell, but at least he knows he should have been in.

 

[DancingPanther]

Happy to see Wagner get into this hall of fame. He wouldn't be in mine, but I have tighter restrictions. And that's fine!

Can we get the Utley tally? Last year he had 17% I think?

As expected, Utley did a lot better with the public votes than the private ones. It's mostly the cantankerous old pricks that vote by arbitrary thresholds staying private. Hell, we've got them here still but at least they say it in public.



That person wants attention, so I don't even care who it was. I mostly want to know if they had a vote when Rivera was on the ballot. Because then the unanimous bullshit doesn't even hold up.

If he wanted attention, he would come forward. We know he won't, so imo that takes away the attention aspect of it

If the thought process is to give the vote to someone else knowing full well Ichiro is getting in, I still think you're an idiot, but to me that's the only reasoning in the same universe as acceptable

Yay for Utley

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Can we get the Utley tally? Last year he had 17% I think?

28.8% --> 39.8%.

That's a good starting point. He'll probably get in. It will just take a little while.

 

[DancingPanther]

28.8% --> 39.8%.

That's a good starting point. He'll probably get in. It will just take a little while.

Yes!! The early jumps are the most important. He might be a year 6-8 guy and that's good enough for me

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Yes!! The early jumps are the most important. He might be a year 6-8 guy and that's good enough for me

I did not know this.



It doesn’t exactly surprise me given that the HoF is just a family cartel set up in Cooperstown.

 

[DancingPanther]

I did not know this.



It doesn’t exactly surprise me given that the HoF is just a family cartel set up in Cooperstown.

Let's make our own HoF

 

[ponder719]

I'm a Big Hall guy (in all sports) so if I had a vote, I might well have voted 10 other people and left Ichiro off, not simply because he was so obviously a perfect HoFer, but to protest the stupid f***ing 10 vote limit.

That said, I can't think of any other reason for leaving Ichiro off the HoF ballot that isn't indicative of some form of brain damage or malignancy.

 

[trostol]

Who the f*** didn't vote for Ichiro

Let's make our own HoF

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I'm a Big Hall guy (in all sports) so if I had a vote, I might well have voted 10 other people and left Ichiro off, not simply because he was so obviously a perfect HoFer, but to protest the stupid f***ing 10 vote limit.

That said, I can't think of any other reason for leaving Ichiro off the HoF ballot that isn't indicative of some form of brain damage or malignancy.

Were you always for a bigger HoF? I only ask because I used to be quite the opposite, but I remember exactly when I changed my mind. It makes me wonder how other people got there.

For me, it was Buck O’Neil’s death, when it felt obvious he was going to be in one day. So why the hell not do it before the man passed? We just did the same dopey thing with Dick Allen.

 

[ponder719]

Were you always for a bigger HoF? I only ask because I used to be quite the opposite, but I remember exactly when I changed my mind. It makes me wonder how other people got there.

For me, it was Buck O’Neil’s death, when it felt obvious he was going to be in one day. So why the hell not do it before the man passed? We just did the same dopey thing with Dick Allen.

Pretty much. I remember as a kid, thinking that just about anyone who you'd call a star should be in the Hall. The Hall is a celebration of their respective sport's history, not merely a memorial to the handful of people the voters liked enough to give credit to. Anyone who left an indelible (positive) mark should be part of that celebration. My main example is Don Mattingly. He had a run of six years where he was one of the most prominent stars in the game, he won a shit ton of awards, sure, he was slow as molasses, but aside from stolen bases, his career stats aren't super dissimilar from Kirby Puckett's, but Puckett was first ballot, and Mattingly languished at sub 30% for 15 years and faded away. Why? Not a goddamned clue. Another one, I defy (generic) you to explain why Joe DiMaggio wasn't a first-ballot guy.

And you can find guys like that everywhere. No disrespect to Pierre Turgeon, but would you have put him in the Hall before Alex Mogilny, if you were asked about both during their playing career? Would anyone have expected Torry Holt and Reggie Wayne to still be on the outside looking in? Or Jared Allen, or Darren Woodson, or any of a number of guys who are finalists this year (and only 5 of the 15 possible candidates are going in at all)? I will never understand the line of reasoning that the 11th best, or 6th best, or Xth best candidate every year isn't good enough, just because someone else has a shinier resume. This isn't a job interview, you have a whole goddamned page of gold star stickers, hand the f***ers out.

Ultimately, the Hall should be about the game, and all the great players and moments that make you love it. There shouldn't be a bouncer at the door saying "you must be at least this popular to ride."

 

[Kermit the Prog]

Someone make the argument for me that Sabathia was first-ballot worthy.

 

[DancingPanther]

Someone make the argument for me that Sabathia was first-ballot worthy.

7 seasons in a row being 30% better than the average pitcher at preventing runs, with a 62 WAR and 6 seasons in a row of 195+ Ks, including 251 and and 230. 8 seasons in a row with over 170 Ks. Won a Cy Young. If you're in to that sort of thing, he also had 7 seasons winning 15 games or more, including a league leading 21 one season. Career winning% over .600. if you're also into this, he developed alcoholism and checked himself into rehab in 2015 at the end of the season, only to deliver 2 great bounce back seasons in 2016 and 2017 at age 35 and 36.

Lock first balloter, imo. The WAR alone does it, and as a pitcher no less!

 

[JojoTheWhale]

BA’s big annual offseason Top 100 is out. You can tell how weak the top of the list is by there being 6 Pitchers in the top 10. Feels like a natural byproduct of some big names getting pushed along quickly.

Phillies who made it:

#9 Painter
#36 Miller
#93 Tait
#96 Crawford

Moisés Chace got at least one vote, but didn’t make the list.

 

[DancingPanther]

BA’s big annual offseason Top 100 is out. You can tell how weak the top of the list is by there being 6 Pitchers in the top 10. Feels like a natural byproduct of some big names getting pushed along quickly.

Phillies who made it:

#9 Painter
#36 Miller
#93 Tait
#96 Crawford

Moisés Chace got at least one vote, but didn’t make the list.

It's amazing that Painter through this whole TJ recovery has stayed in the top 20 the entire time

 

[Kermit the Prog]

7 seasons in a row being 30% better than the average pitcher at preventing runs, with a 62 WAR and 6 seasons in a row of 195+ Ks, including 251 and and 230. 8 seasons in a row with over 170 Ks. Won a Cy Young. If you're in to that sort of thing, he also had 7 seasons winning 15 games or more, including a league leading 21 one season. Career winning% over .600. if you're also into this, he developed alcoholism and checked himself into rehab in 2015 at the end of the season, only to deliver 2 great bounce back seasons in 2016 and 2017 at age 35 and 36.

Lock first balloter, imo. The WAR alone does it, and as a pitcher no less!

I appreciate the research. Too many people do not put in the effort.

I'm not doubting his worthiness, but I'm not sold on any of the above as being a first ballot Hall of Famer. There are quite a number of no-doubters in the HOF who were not first ballot guys. I'm a Sabathia fan, primarily because I've always been a strong advocate of African-American starting pitchers, and the dearth of them over the past 40 years or so and I wish there were more. Mike Mussina, by comparison, whose career stacks up evenly - if not more favorably - than Sabathia, waited six years before induction. He doesn't have Sabathia's Cy Young or LCS MVP, but he did have seven Gold Gloves and an 82.8 WAR versus Sabathia's 62.3.

 

[FLYguy3911]

BA’s big annual offseason Top 100 is out. You can tell how weak the top of the list is by there being 6 Pitchers in the top 10. Feels like a natural byproduct of some big names getting pushed along quickly.

Phillies who made it:

#9 Painter
#36 Miller
#93 Tait
#96 Crawford

Moisés Chace got at least one vote, but didn’t make the list.

Caba 54 fwiw.

 

[Kermit the Prog]

Caba 54 fwiw.

Admittedly, I don't do much rubbernecking into the farm system. In your opinion, what is Caba's upside? Do you have an MLB (past or present) comparison?

 

[DancingPanther]

Caba 54 fwiw.

I tend to prospect hug, but if Luzardo comes over and delivers, so be it. The window is now.

I'll always say trading a blue chipper like Caba for a hitter is a smarter use of the asset, but I can't hate the idea

 

[FLYguy3911]

Admittedly, I don't do much rubbernecking into the farm system. In your opinion, what is Caba's upside? Do you have an MLB (past or present) comparison?

I'm not sure my opinion on a kid just out of the complex leagues that I've seen very little of matters much laugh but...

Just off of the scouting reports and the bits of video that sprinkle out, he kinda sounds like Francisco Lindor, the prospect, before the unexpected power surge which is obviously a huge separator for a SS. On the low end? Probably your typical utility guy. Hard to project that far out, especially with this era's version of Low-A ball.

Everyone says he's an amazing fielder (and the video backs it up) at the most important position. He can run. Seems to have a real good idea of the strike zone. Makes a lot of contact. That's a really good starter kit. My guess is the Phillies don't think he will ever grow into power or else you do anything to avoid letting that guy walk out the door short of getting a young, cost controlled star back. He hasn't cracked a .100 ISO yet at any stop and you'd figure even if he's not impacting the ball yet, his speed alone could get him there.

They traded a lesser version of Caba at the deadline too. They seem to prefer the power guys. Or at least the guys that project for power.

 

[Kermit the Prog]

I'm not sure my opinion on a kid just out of the complex leagues that I've seen very little of matters much laugh but...

Just off of the scouting reports and the bits of video that sprinkle out, he kinda sounds like Francisco Lindor, the prospect, before the unexpected power surge which is obviously a huge separator for a SS. On the low end? Probably your typical utility guy. Hard to project that far out, especially with this era's version of Low-A ball.

Everyone says he's an amazing fielder (and the video backs it up) at the most important position. He can run. Seems to have a real good idea of the strike zone. Makes a lot of contact. That's a really good starter kit. My guess is the Phillies don't think he will ever grow into power or else you do anything to avoid letting that guy walk out the door short of getting a young, cost controlled star back. He hasn't cracked a .100 ISO yet at any stop and you'd figure even if he's not impacting the ball yet, his speed alone could get him there.

They traded a lesser version of Caba at the deadline too. They seem to prefer the power guys. Or at least the guys that project for power.

Thanks!

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

That’s a pretty rough list. None of them are getting in next year & frankly Hamels might be the only one that has an argument at any point.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Yeah, I think Hamels is probably the one who who'd get in on his first try from that list.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Yeah, I think Hamels is probably the one who who'd get in on his first try from that list.

There's a functionally zero percent chance Hamels gets in on his first ballot. Mark Buehrle got 11.8% of the vote. Felix Hernandez is at 20%.

You would need a sizable shift in the way Starters are evaluated for him to clear the bar at any point, but he's also one of the litmus test guys for how voters are going to handle modern SPs. It will probably take some time to even know if he has a chance.

 

[DancingPanther]

That’s a pretty rough list. None of them are getting in next year & frankly Hamels might be the only one that has an argument at any point.

Great for Utley