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Other Sports: Philadelphia 76ers, 2024-25: Countdown to April

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JojoTheWhale said:
I think everyone loves Maxey. But there were some wild takes out there about how he could be a lead guy on a contender that were frankly insane.
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This I would probably disagree with (if by "lead guy you mean "best player"). Where is the cutoff for how good the best player on a championship team needs to be? It would appear that you are putting it somewhere between Maxey and Jayson Tatum. I admit I'm a Sixers homer and Celtics hater but I think Tatum is one of the more overrated players in the NBA. He has never, in my opinion, belonged in the MVP conversation. So considering that the Celtics finally won it all with him as their best player (after failing to win it all with him as their best player for a bunch of years), where are you drawing the line?

To me it's all about roster construction. The Celtics weren't winning anything until they added Jrue/Horford/Porzingis/White. I mean, that's one hell of a supporting cast for your two star players. If you build a roster like that you don't need an MVP caliber player.
 
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JojoTheWhale said:
It's the type of thing that can blow up in your face, but it just doesn't matter. They couldn't trade him for real value. So you sign him and hope you get a good roll of the swelling dice. If he's not at an MVP level again, they're not contending in the next few years anyway.

There's this tendency to lose all sense of scope with ascending young players. I think everyone loves Maxey. But there were some wild takes out there about how he could be a lead guy on a contender that were frankly insane. Either Embiid is that guy or they don't have him. If it's the latter, you then need time to get him and time for him to develop. So you're talking about shooting for a 2029ish start time.

A lot of the same people who do this weird Embiid thing were still Okafor fans in Year 3 or were the "Build around Simmons" chuckleheads. It is what it is.
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Yup. I mean I said it literally 2 days ago. This was the risk of the shaving procedure. And sure as shit everyone was real happy to see him back for the playoffs.

Everyone is myopic to some extent. I am fully aware I'm guilty of this sometimes with Morey. It is what it is. Sometimes you just have to breathe and think. Unfortunately, many fans don't breathe and think
 
Jack Straw said:
This I would probably disagree with (if by "lead guy you mean "best player"). Where is the cutoff for how good the best player on a championship team needs to be? It would appear you are putting that somewhere between Maxey and Jayson Tatum. I admit I'm a Sixers homer and Celtics hater but I think Tatum is one of the more overrated players in the NBA. He has never, in my opinion, belonged in the MVP conversation. So considering that the Celtics finally won it all with him as their best player (after failing to win it all with him as their best player for a bunch of years), where are you drawing the line?

To me it's all about roster construction. The Celtics weren't winning anything until they added Jrue/Horford/Porzingis/White. I mean, that's one hell of a supporting cast for your two star players. If you build a roster like that you don't need an MVP caliber player.
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Fo me, there are 7 MVP level talents — Jokic, Giannis, Doncic, Curry, Durant, Embiid, and SGA. Obviously there are major injury risks with some of those. I’m speaking in a vacuum. Then you have Tier 2 which is a rainbow of guys who will never quite be that good (Tatum, AD, Mitchell), have lost too much physically (LeBron, Kawhi), or might get there one day but haven’t yet (Ant, Wemby). Order those Tier 2 guys however you want and I won’t argue. Side note, but I would have Holmgren on Tier 2 already. I think he’s wildly underrated by the basketball community as a whole.

You just can’t build the kind of depth the Celtics did outside of extreme corner cases. That’s because of the new CBA. So yes, having a Tier 2 guy is good enough if you can also have another Top 20ish player plus 2 more Top 40ish guys. But you probably can’t anymore. Or you can try and then immediately sell the team because you don’t want to pay the cap bill. :laugh:
 
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JojoTheWhale said:
You just can’t build the kind of depth the Celtics did outside of extreme corner cases. That’s because of the new CBA. So yes, having a Tier 2 guy is good enough if you can also have another Top 20ish player plus 2 more Top 40ish guys. But you probably can’t anymore. Or you can try and then immediately sell the team because you don’t want to pay the cap bill. :laugh:
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Unfortunately, I think this is the only path forward for the Sixers for the forseeable future because I don't think we'll ever see MVP level Embiid again. If we're lucky, maybe All-Star level Embiid. But I'm afraid the good ship "MVP Joel" has sailed.
 
Jack Straw said:
Unfortunately, I think this is the only path forward for the Sixers for the forseeable future because I don't think we'll ever see MVP level Embiid again. If we're lucky, maybe All-Star level Embiid. But the good ship "MVP Joel" has sailed.
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I don't disagree on the Embiid outlook. But I appreciate that they finally gave themselves a shot at meaningful success. It probably won’t work out. That's ok. I don't want an org scared to take the reasonable big swings.

I do think they can rebuild with these contracts on the books. That's the nice part of two of your stars missing games.
 
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JojoTheWhale said:
I don't disagree on the Embiid outlook. But I appreciate that they finally gave themselves a shot at meaningful success. It probably won’t work out. That's ok. I don't want an org scared to take the reasonable big swings.

I do think they can rebuild with these contracts on the books. That's the nice part of two of your stars missing games.
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I don't. As OKC showed, a big part of rebuilding in the NBA is taking bad contracts in return for 1st rd picks. Hinkie did that a little, OKC made it a fine art.
 
Jack Straw said:
Unfortunately, I think this is the only path forward for the Sixers for the forseeable future because I don't think we'll ever see MVP level Embiid again. If we're lucky, maybe All-Star level Embiid. But I'm afraid the good ship "MVP Joel" has sailed.
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The guy was willing to go to jail for murder.....that tells you how frustrated and almost checked out he has become. If they can squeeze a good playoff run out of him and PG in the next couple of years that's the most you can hope for ....it isn't much though.
 
JojoTheWhale said:
Fo me, there are 7 MVP level talents — Jokic, Giannis, Doncic, Curry, Durant, Embiid, and SGA. Obviously there are major injury risks with some of those. I’m speaking in a vacuum. Then you have Tier 2 which is a rainbow of guys who will never quite be that good (Tatum, AD, Mitchell), have lost too much physically (LeBron, Kawhi), or might get there one day but haven’t yet (Ant, Wemby). Order those Tier 2 guys however you want and I won’t argue. Side note, but I would have Holmgren on Tier 2 already. I think he’s wildly underrated by the basketball community as a whole.

You just can’t build the kind of depth the Celtics did outside of extreme corner cases. That’s because of the new CBA. So yes, having a Tier 2 guy is good enough if you can also have another Top 20ish player plus 2 more Top 40ish guys. But you probably can’t anymore. Or you can try and then immediately sell the team because you don’t want to pay the cap bill. :laugh:
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by far...Ant!! lol

if Hinkie was still around...someone(several) would have been traded by now lol
 
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Hinkie resigned in April of 2016. That's the day the process died if you ask me.

You can give it a couple more years after that, since his fingerprints and assets were still around. But I most certainly won't call much, if anything, Colangelo, Brand or Morey have done as part of the process. Anyone still bringing that up is just mainstream media punching down on how this has failed leaving out a ton of context. Call it the Embiid Era, not The Process.

It's been mentioned how the Colangelos got forced on us, but then the Thunder did the SAME EXACT THING and a blind eye was turned and now are praised for how it turned out. It's ok for Oklahoma City, but not a big market I guess.

Hinkie only had 3 drafts here. Noel/MCW in 13, Embiid/Saric in 14 and Okafor in 15. He almost certainly takes Simmons in 16 which was right after he resigned. So let's go from there.

Traded MCW at his highest value for a 1st (That Colangelo used on Zhaire Smith)
Noel was mid
Embiid a MVP
Saric solid role player
Okafor was a bust (rumor is he wanted Porzingis but KP wanted New York, how true that is I'm not sure)

I don't think he trades up for Fultz. He might still take him at #3 but I don't think he gets fooled into moving up by Boston. More likely to move down than up.

Using MCW and other moves as a reference, do we not think Hinkie sells Okafor or Noel off or packages them in something bigger before they have zero value, like when Colangelo did?

Does he move off Simmons before it was too late?

I can't answer these questions, but I sure as hell what have like to see the outcome. Worst case scenario, we're in the same position we're in now anyway.

Colangelo was a disaster, Brand was in over head and since then Morey has been trying to fix everything to no avail. He's not perfect, but he's not as bad as the other two, and Embiid's knees aren't doing us any favors. Since you were locked into to Embiid you were kinda forced to sign George as well. Even though everyone with eyes and brain knew how this would turn out. It was basically like having no other choices but to put all your chips on green.
 
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Big Poppa Puck said:
Hinkie resigned in April of 2016. That's the day the process died if you ask me.

You can give it a couple more years after that, since his fingerprints and assets were still around. But I most certainly won't call much, if anything, Colangelo, Brand or Morey have done as part of the process. Anyone still bringing that up is just mainstream media punching down on how this has failed leaving out a ton of context. Call it the Embiid Era, not The Process.

It's been mentioned how the Colangelos got forced on us, but then the Thunder did the SAME EXACT THING and a blind eye was turned and now are praised for how it turned out. It's ok for Oklahoma City, but not a big market I guess.

Hinkie only had 3 drafts here. Noel/MCW in 13, Embiid/Saric in 14 and Okafor in 15. He almost certainly takes Simmons in 16 which was right after he resigned. So let's go from there.

Traded MCW at his highest value for a 1st (That Colangelo used on Zhaire Smith)
Noel was mid
Embiid a MVP
Saric solid role player
Okafor was a bust (rumor is he wanted Porzingis but KP wanted New York, how true that is I'm not sure)

I don't think he trades up for Fultz. He might still take him at #3 but I don't think he gets fooled into moving up by Boston. More likely to move down than up.

Using MCW and other moves as a reference, do we not think Hinkie sells Okafor or Noel off or packages them in something bigger before they have zero value, like when Colangelo did?

Does he move off Simmons before it was too late?

I can't answer these questions, but I sure as hell what have like to see the outcome. Worst case scenario, we're in the same position we're in now anyway.

Colangelo was a disaster, Brand was in over head and since then Morey has been trying to fix everything to no avail. He's not perfect, but he's not as bad as the other two, and Embiid's knees aren't doing us any favors. Since you were locked into to Embiid you were kinda forced to sign George as well. Even though everyone with eyes and brain knew how this would turn out. It was basically like having no other choices but to put all your chips on green.
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Zhaire Smith was actually the brain trust of Brand and Brown...precurser to the current DOGE....

Let's not forget Josh Harris' role in all of this too...
 
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What is this music that they’re playing at the end of the Sixers game? I feel like I’ve heard it before but I just can’t place it.
 
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