Contract Termination: [PHI] F Ryan Johansen placed on waivers by the Flyers for the purpose of contract termination (Johansen grieving)

[Rich Nixon]

Rich got the title slightly wrong, you're looking for former Executive Chairman Peter Luukko.

...Who needs a Wikipedia update; they still show him with the Panthers, but apparently he's now with Oak View Group's Arena Alliance. He appears to have left the Panthers in 2019.

Woof that's right, I missed his departure from Florida. Appreciate that. He was big in getting that franchise on the path to where it is now, but his name ain't on the Cup. Funniest part is that Oak View Group bought a substantial part of Comcast Spectacor's business, their massive arena management division called Spectra, to merge it with Arena Alliance in 2021. Luukko cut his teeth in Philly managing the operations that would become Spectra, so in a sense he did inherit a big part of Ed Snider's empire after all (by helping another company buy it).

This is all too beside the point of this thread now, so quick wrap: the smart people left Flyers management and their parent company has been parting out the company built around the Flyers while not really treating the Flyers as a serious operation. So now you've got an inexperienced GM in Briere learning on the job while seemingly burning bridges with players and their agents left and right.

Bringing all that back to Johanson's corner, did the Flyers ever actually put him on LTIR, or did he just sit on the NHL roster but not dress that whole time?

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

You seem fairly clued up on this, what did the Flyers change their mind on and how do you know to be so sure?

100% agree with you that we don't know what truly happened. That said, this is one of those cases where you have to "read between the lines" of how people react to situations, because the people who actually know haven't publicly addressed the issue.

What I think I know:
1) CG originally was excited about being drafted by the Flyers.
2) Most NCAA players drafted early in the 1st round like CG have a year burnt off their ELC if possible if they want to sign a pro contract.
3) CG's college season ends almost immediately after Fletcher gets fired, and he could sign his pro contract.
4) Fletcher's replacement Briere offers an AHL try-out, which would not burn a year of the CG's ELC, which was declined.
5) Not burning a year off the ELC likely costs CG millions of dollars on his career earnings (should note this does not impact UFA eligibility).
6) From reports - CG tells the Flyers he is not willing to sign with the team, and his decision is final.
7) The Flyers continue to attempt to mend the relationship, and CG was having none of it.
8) After trading CG - the Flyers organization undertook the most organized smear campaign that I can remember in the NHL.

IMO - this comes down to 1 thing. What soured the relationship between CG & the Flyers? From what I think I know above, it could be:
1) By not burning a year off his ELC, the Flyers cost CG millions of dollars.
or
2) CG has mental issues and soured on the Flyers through no fault of the organization.

I know which I think is more likely. And don't get me wrong - the Flyers were not required to burn a year off the ELC. But if it was promised by Fletcher and Briere reneged, this is a COMPLETELY expected outcome. IMO, this is a cost of having people who might not have the necessary skillsets for their current roles leading the franchise.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Flyers could have easily let him not report to the minors which would have resulted in zero income after the suspension. Instead they do him a solid and he grieves it lol.

Am I missing something? As I understand it, when RJ says that he is injured and unable to play, he cannot be placed on waivers which is required for him to be sent to the AHL. So RJ "pre-empted" the move, so he never had to say that "I will not report" so the Flyers could suspend him.

 

[Leafshater67]

Good point

Maybe once you retain its stuck on the cap ?

It didn’t work that way in the past, most recently with Kuznetsov and the caps. Nashville got lucky.

It’s crazy how badly Johansen has turned out. Most thought he would be a top 1C for years to come and here we are and he’s washed out of the league. Brutal.

 

[GKJ]

Flyers could have easily let him not report to the minors which would have resulted in zero income after the suspension. Instead they do him a solid and he grieves it lol.

Johansen doesn’t get paid if he does that.

 

[StreetHawk]

100% agree with you that we don't know what truly happened. That said, this is one of those cases where you have to "read between the lines" of how people react to situations, because the people who actually know haven't publicly addressed the issue.

What I think I know:
1) CG originally was excited about being drafted by the Flyers.
2) Most NCAA players drafted early in the 1st round like CG have a year burnt off their ELC if possible if they want to sign a pro contract.
3) CG's college season ends almost immediately after Fletcher gets fired, and he could sign his pro contract.
4) Fletcher's replacement Briere offers an AHL try-out, which would not burn a year of the CG's ELC, which was declined.
5) Not burning a year off the ELC likely costs CG millions of dollars on his career earnings (should note this does not impact UFA eligibility).
6) From reports - CG tells the Flyers he is not willing to sign with the team, and his decision is final.
7) The Flyers continue to attempt to mend the relationship, and CG was having none of it.
8) After trading CG - the Flyers organization undertook the most organized smear campaign that I can remember in the NHL.

IMO - this comes down to 1 thing. What soured the relationship between CG & the Flyers? From what I think I know above, it could be:
1) By not burning a year off his ELC, the Flyers cost CG millions of dollars.
or
2) CG has mental issues and soured on the Flyers through no fault of the organization.

I know which I think is more likely. And don't get me wrong - the Flyers were not required to burn a year off the ELC. But if it was promised by Fletcher and Briere reneged, this is a COMPLETELY expected outcome. IMO, this is a cost of having people who might not have the necessary skillsets for their current roles leading the franchise.

The money difference between year 3 of elc vs RFA money can be large if you are solid to good on the elc years.

Beniers, despite a drop in his final elc year, still got $7 mill per on a 7 year deal. year 3 of elc, only guaranteed the $925K base and have the opportunity to earn bonuses, so best case you earn over $3 mill on that 3rd year elc. So that's anywhere from $4-6 mill difference.

Or you're Kent Johnson and don't do well enough on your elc to warrant that long term deal and get a bridge worth $1.8 mill per for 3 years (surprised he went 3 vs 2 years). Then, it's only a $900K difference between elc vs rfa contract, but on elc you can still earn bonus money to surpass the $1.8 mill rfa money.

Briere was an internal promotion, so not like he came from off the street or another team. So, very odd to have that kind of change when he takes over the GM role unless the something really changed in their assessment of CG's development, but that really should not have occurred in a space of 2 weeks or something when the GM change occured.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

The money difference between year 3 of elc vs RFA money can be large if you are solid to good on the elc years.

Beniers, despite a drop in his final elc year, still got $7 mill per on a 7 year deal. year 3 of elc, only guaranteed the $925K base and have the opportunity to earn bonuses, so best case you earn over $3 mill on that 3rd year elc. So that's anywhere from $4-6 mill difference.

Or you're Kent Johnson and don't do well enough on your elc to warrant that long term deal and get a bridge worth $1.8 mill per for 3 years (surprised he went 3 vs 2 years). Then, it's only a $900K difference between elc vs rfa contract, but on elc you can still earn bonus money to surpass the $1.8 mill rfa money.

Briere was an internal promotion, so not like he came from off the street or another team. So, very odd to have that kind of change when he takes over the GM role unless the something really changed in their assessment of CG's development, but that really should not have occurred in a space of 2 weeks or something when the GM change occured.

Agree 100% on your assessment. My thought is that the vast majority guys drafted where CG was expect to come in an contribute immediately. He very likely feels (rightly or wrongly) that the Flyers screwed him out of at least $3-4M (assuming a $4-5M bridge deal). And I get the folks that say "the CBA doesn't require the Flyers to burn a year, so they did nothing wrong". That said - enough of the highly drafted NCAA guys get a year burned off the ELC, so if your organization decides not to do so it has to understand it risks the relationship with the player.

The fact that Briere is an internal hire is also a good point. He would have been part of the internal discussion and 100% knew what was communicated to the organization's top prospect.

 

[kingpest19]

Am I missing something? As I understand it, when RJ says that he is injured and unable to play, he cannot be placed on waivers which is required for him to be sent to the AHL. So RJ "pre-empted" the move, so he never had to say that "I will not report" so the Flyers could suspend him.

He had already cleared waivers and was assigned to the AHL before saying anything about being injured. He used the injury instead of saying he wasn't going to report which started all the confusion because he hadn't missed a game all season and then "suddenly" he was injured.

 

[Johnny HFBOARDS]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1825933111592628336

Nobody want to play for Philly cause they wear slacks.

 

[BelovedIsles]

Johansen is grieving his loss?

 

[eramosat]

What teams based options are you referring to?

Do you have any experience with unions? In my experience they defend their members regardless of facts and circumstances.

the team based options, in order were:

immediately trade him again - could not get it done
demote him to the AHL and bury his cap hit - Johansen claimed injury rendering it impossible to do
buy out the remainder of his contract for 2025 - once again, Johansen' injury claim negated this impossible

So...then you have experience with "unions" consisting of about 400 active members at a given time, like the NHLPA? Laughable. The NHLPA is a union in name only. It has practically nothing in common with unions as we understand them.

Well, we'll what happens.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

Johansen is grieving his loss?

No. English sucks.

 

[vipera1960]

No. English sucks.

I mean… the money obviously.

 

[John Mandalorian]

When you compare words to actions, RJ and his agency have a problem.

He has not played one game since being traded. But prior to being traded, he "played" every game. So his agency says its a significant injury. Oh really? When did this occur? Once again, Colorado could have LTIRed him instead of trading a 1st to dump him.

He only reports the injury upon demotion.

Its obvious whats going on here. The problem with citing the CBA is its based on things happening above board. Thats not whats happening here.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

the team based options, in order were:

immediately trade him again - could not get it done
demote him to the AHL and bury his cap hit - Johansen claimed injury rendering it impossible to do
buy out the remainder of his contract for 2025 - once again, Johansen' injury claim negated this impossible

So...then you have experience with "unions" consisting of about 400 active members at a given time, like the NHLPA? Laughable. The NHLPA is a union in name only. It has practically nothing in common with unions as we understand them.

Well, we'll what happens.

Agree on we'll see what happens. But a couple of points:

1) RJ would have had to have had a physical both after the trade, and at the end of the season. If he passed the EOS physical - he could be bought out. He must not have passed the physical, and he apparently has major surgery scheduled (which the Flyers could not have been ignorant of).
2) My "laughable" experience is not with a union 400 people. But the NHLPA is not that size either. To sign a NHL contract you must be a member of the NHLPA, and since each of the 32 teams have between 45-50 players under contract, that's about 3-4x as many participants as you seem to think. But even beyond that, your contention that the number of participants makes a union completely unique is completely baseless. I would bet that Alan Eagleson would have been RIGHT at home at the AFL-CIO. From what I've read of the NHLPA - you get a lot of the same internal attitudes where the vast majority of the member just want to work and the vocal minority runs the show including the politics and powerplays of any similarly purposed organization.
3) IMO, one of the major characteristics of unions (of any size) would be that they voraciously defend their members, regardless of the underlying facts and circumstances. The NHLPA is in line with that behavior.

Somehow you seem to think that you know more than every person on the internet. Hubris much? You don't know me, or my experience. I did not claim to be an organized labor expert, but have had to deal with unions as part of my professional experience. I'm not claiming to have intimate knowledge of how the NHLPA works, or have any specific details of the RJ situation beyond what's been reported.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

When you compare words to actions, RJ and his agency have a problem.

He has not played one game since being traded. But prior to being traded, he "played" every game. So his agency says its a significant injury. Oh really? When did this occur? Once again, Colorado could have LTIRed him instead of trading a 1st to dump him.

He only reports the injury upon demotion.

Its obvious whats going on here. The problem with citing the CBA is its based on things happening above board. Thats not whats happening here.

Is part of the reason he didn't play a game because the Flyers immediately waived him and were sending him to the AHL? Do you think that every player who played in their team's last game of the year was healthy? Why are there a ton of surgeries which happen in the off-season? Might it be possible that guys were "gutting it out" and playing through significant injuries?

I'm not taking RJ's "side" with this, and if I was in the Flyer's organization I'd be pissed as well. I think he's probably gaming the system for his own benefit, and I think that's pretty shitty. With that said - I think it's also possible that he was playing hurt and was injured enough that surgery was required. If the Flyers medical staff could prove otherwise - they 100% would have done so and RJ would be bought out right now. As someone who has had major surgery - I doubt that RJ would "fake" an injury so he could have major surgery and spend the next number of months (TBD based on the surgery required) rehabbing. From a cash perspective, we're talking about $2.7M (of which he would actually get about half - taxes & agent get the rest) being "lost" if he's bought out. This is for a guy who has had in excess of $80M of career earnings.

Again - from what I think I know (maybe completely incorrect - but this is what I think I know):
1) RJ's play in COL was significantly below expectation.
2) Part of his poor play might be attributed to him playing injured.
3) Gets traded to PHI at the TD and was immediately placed on waivers so he could be sent down.
4) He claims he's injured.
5) Apparently - the Flyers can't prove that he is "healthy".
6) Assume the Flyers medical staff would be involved with determining if rehab is an option, or surgery required.
7) No surgery scheduled, so assume that rehab under Flyer medical staff supervision would occur.
8) Season ends and players undergo end of season physical.
9) Assume that RJ does not pass physical - because if he did pass the phsyical he would have been bought out already.
10) Again - repeat #7 until they determine that rehab is not helping and surgery is required.
11) Surgery scheduled (per KO tweet) - and the Flyers have to know this.
12) Flyers try to terminate RJ's contract.

My editorial - the Flyers organization seem to operate in a world where they think the world should acquiesce to what they want (or at least do what's best for the organization). Going all the way back to Lindros' medical issues and the Flyers needed him to play - so the team medical staff cleared him to play. More recently example would be the Cutter Gauthier situation where from what I understand it looks like the Flyers likely reneged on burning the first year of his ELC, which from CG's perspective would reduce his career earnings by $3-4M (and save the Flyers $3-4M of cash and cap space in that contract year). Then the Flyers are apparently surprised that CG would be angry about that, and not want to play for an organization that would do that to someone who would be part of the core they are going to build around. Then they go on the largest smear campaign I've seen in 30+ years in the NHL painting themselves as completely blameless and this is just some entitled, narcisstic kid who "doesn't want to be a Flyer". In the RJ case - the Flyers medical staff had 2 chances to prove that RJ was healthy, and they failed to do so. They apparently think that the rules don't apply to them, so they can just void the contract.

I know - TLDR.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

I mean… the money obviously.

He hasn’t lost anything yet, so he can’t be grieving its loss. He can be grieving the Flyers’ attempt to void his contract.

 

[ProfessorFink22]

Not sure if this has been covered in the thread, nor if we could have this answer without the input of Colorado themselves - was he scheduled to be in the lineup for their next game had he not been traded?

 

[thedjpd]

Not sure if this has been covered in the thread, nor if we could have this answer without the input of Colorado themselves - was he scheduled to be in the lineup for their next game had he not been traded?

He practiced in the morning skate prior to their game that day.

Is part of the reason he didn't play a game because the Flyers immediately waived him and were sending him to the AHL? Do you think that every player who played in their team's last game of the year was healthy? Why are there a ton of surgeries which happen in the off-season? Might it be possible that guys were "gutting it out" and playing through significant injuries?

I'm not taking RJ's "side" with this, and if I was in the Flyer's organization I'd be pissed as well. I think he's probably gaming the system for his own benefit, and I think that's pretty shitty. With that said - I think it's also possible that he was playing hurt and was injured enough that surgery was required. If the Flyers medical staff could prove otherwise - they 100% would have done so and RJ would be bought out right now. As someone who has had major surgery - I doubt that RJ would "fake" an injury so he could have major surgery and spend the next number of months (TBD based on the surgery required) rehabbing. From a cash perspective, we're talking about $2.7M (of which he would actually get about half - taxes & agent get the rest) being "lost" if he's bought out. This is for a guy who has had in excess of $80M of career earnings.

Again - from what I think I know (maybe completely incorrect - but this is what I think I know):
1) RJ's play in COL was significantly below expectation.
2) Part of his poor play might be attributed to him playing injured.
3) Gets traded to PHI at the TD and was immediately placed on waivers so he could be sent down.
4) He claims he's injured.
5) Apparently - the Flyers can't prove that he is "healthy".
6) Assume the Flyers medical staff would be involved with determining if rehab is an option, or surgery required.
7) No surgery scheduled, so assume that rehab under Flyer medical staff supervision would occur.
8) Season ends and players undergo end of season physical.
9) Assume that RJ does not pass physical - because if he did pass the phsyical he would have been bought out already.
10) Again - repeat #7 until they determine that rehab is not helping and surgery is required.
11) Surgery scheduled (per KO tweet) - and the Flyers have to know this.
12) Flyers try to terminate RJ's contract.

My editorial - the Flyers organization seem to operate in a world where they think the world should acquiesce to what they want (or at least do what's best for the organization). Going all the way back to Lindros' medical issues and the Flyers needed him to play - so the team medical staff cleared him to play. More recently example would be the Cutter Gauthier situation where from what I understand it looks like the Flyers likely reneged on burning the first year of his ELC, which from CG's perspective would reduce his career earnings by $3-4M (and save the Flyers $3-4M of cash and cap space in that contract year). Then the Flyers are apparently surprised that CG would be angry about that, and not want to play for an organization that would do that to someone who would be part of the core they are going to build around. Then they go on the largest smear campaign I've seen in 30+ years in the NHL painting themselves as completely blameless and this is just some entitled, narcisstic kid who "doesn't want to be a Flyer". In the RJ case - the Flyers medical staff had 2 chances to prove that RJ was healthy, and they failed to do so. They apparently think that the rules don't apply to them, so they can just void the contract.

I know - TLDR.

Why wait until 2 weeks before training camp to have the surgery scheduled when you are injured in March? And it's only publicized suddenly in response to a termination motion?

 

[Ignatius]

What a fall for RyJo

Since the 2017 playoffs nothing has been the same for him or the Pittsburgh Penguins

 

[John Mandalorian]

Agree on we'll see what happens. But a couple of points:

1) RJ would have had to have had a physical both after the trade, and at the end of the season. If he passed the EOS physical - he could be bought out. He must not have passed the physical, and he apparently has major surgery scheduled (which the Flyers could not have been ignorant of).
2) My "laughable" experience is not with a union 400 people. But the NHLPA is not that size either. To sign a NHL contract you must be a member of the NHLPA, and since each of the 32 teams have between 45-50 players under contract, that's about 3-4x as many participants as you seem to think. But even beyond that, your contention that the number of participants makes a union completely unique is completely baseless. I would bet that Alan Eagleson would have been RIGHT at home at the AFL-CIO. From what I've read of the NHLPA - you get a lot of the same internal attitudes where the vast majority of the member just want to work and the vocal minority runs the show including the politics and powerplays of any similarly purposed organization.
3) IMO, one of the major characteristics of unions (of any size) would be that they voraciously defend their members, regardless of the underlying facts and circumstances. The NHLPA is in line with that behavior.

Somehow you seem to think that you know more than every person on the internet. Hubris much? You don't know me, or my experience. I did not claim to be an organized labor expert, but have had to deal with unions as part of my professional experience. I'm not claiming to have intimate knowledge of how the NHLPA works, or have any specific details of the RJ situation beyond what's been reported.

His agent said he was seriously injured. But now you're making excuses for him by saying he was as healthy as every one else. So which is it, was he seriously hurt and misrepresenting his injury when he could have been LTIRed or was as healthy as everyone else and is inventing or embellishing the injury to avoid Lehigh?

Pick one.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Am I missing something? As I understand it, when RJ says that he is injured and unable to play, he cannot be placed on waivers which is required for him to be sent to the AHL. So RJ "pre-empted" the move, so he never had to say that "I will not report" so the Flyers could suspend him.

The injury happened in the 24 hours after being put on waivers. Basically so they couldn’t send him down.

 

[barriers]

Why wait until 2 weeks before training camp to have the surgery scheduled when you are injured in March? And it's only publicized suddenly in response to a termination motion?

He wasn't expected to play this season even with surgery. Surgery is a final option and most doctors will recommend rehab first if there's a reasonable chance that could help any issue. Also, maybe he just wanted to defer it until after his wedding and honeymoon.

Quite frankly, some of y'all just need to wrap your heads around the idea that maybe a player would be willing to play through injury for a playoff team but not for one unlikely to make it.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Quite frankly, some of y'all just need to wrap your heads around the idea that maybe a player would be willing to play through injury for a playoff team but not for one unlikely to make it.

Some of y’all need to realize Flyers were a playoff team when he was traded, they were third in the Metro division, better than a WC spot,

 

[FlyguyOX]

Also, maybe he just wanted to defer it until after his wedding and honeymoon.

Then he is in violation of his contract.