Phaneuf Discussion Thread - Civil Mode

[-DeMo-]

3) Carlyle's dumb defensive tactics. He routinely has the forwards collapsing low, far beyond the faceoff zone dots. Including and most notably, the wingers.

I'm not sure why people say this stuff a lot of NHL teams who are excellent Defensively employ this exact style of play, and it works extremely well, teams who do this include teams like LA, St. Louis and Boston. the difference is when the points get the puck, there forwards work hard to get into the shooting lanes and either force the Dmen to not shoot or if he does block the shot.

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[McGuiresMonsters]

What is he saying?

- I was emotional and didn't want to talk to the media and say something dumb.
- I should have talked to the media, but that's the decision I made.

Mostly fluff, but what is he going to say.

 

[Erdinger]

- I was emotional and didn't want to talk to the media and say something dumb.
- I should have talked to the media, but that's the decision I made.

Mostly fluff, but what is he going to say.

He seemed a lot more engaging on the radio than those wooden post game interviews.

 

[Dreakmur]

Given the fact that Franson, Rielly, Ranger, Gleason and Gardiner are the other options, what would you choose?

Nobody. I didn't say Carlyle was wrong, I just said exactly what those stats mean.

As I have said before, Phaneuf's high ice time and high competition has a lot to do with the rest of the blueline.

 

[Pierre Gotye]

eh? He is compared to the other Leafs d-man who play for the same coach and with the same forwards.

Yeah he logs a ton of minutes because the other guys clearly can't handle the time.

FFS, we spent nearly a half a season trying to sort out the Franger experiment. Gardiner was being benched. Liles couldn't get into the lineup.

McClement is practically playing 2nd and 3rd line minutes, a place where he'll never be useful or find success.

This is the same poor Dion Phaneuf that spent parts of his season here playing with AHLers...most notably Kostka, Aulie, and Holzer who can't even or can barely keep their worth in the NHL. He also has spent parts of the time playing his weak side.

But oh yeah...all Dion's fault.

 

[Pierre Gotye]

I'm not sure why people say this stuff a lot of NHL teams who are excellent Defensively employ this exact style of play, and it works extremely well, teams who do this include teams like LA, St. Louis and Boston. the difference is when the points get the puck, there forwards work hard to get into the shooting lanes and either force the Dmen to not shoot or if he does block the shot.

And which of those teams is thought of, or has already been a Stanley Cup winner, because they have a well-balanced roster? Care to take a guess?

 

[McGuiresMonsters]

He seemed a lot more engaging on the radio than those wooden post game interviews.

I would agree. Tim and Sid are pretty good at doing interviews. It's also easier for players when they have some time to reflect and prepare before having to answer questions from the media and without a hundred mics + cameras in their face.

 

[diceman934]

So it's Dion's fault the team sucks defensively and can't keep control of puck possession, and can't generate any cycling down low with consistently?

Yeah, thats dumb. Strawman viewpoint.

1) Bozak sucks defensively, and is often out of position.

2) JVR and Kessel are basically generating all the offense, which leaves them routinely out of position.

3) Carlyle's dumb defensive tactics. He routinely has the forwards collapsing low, far beyond the faceoff zone dots. Including and most notably, the wingers.

In Hockey terms we call this: "bunching up." It's just stupid, and, fundamentally incorrect. It leaves the points wide open to shoot and readily distribute the puck on command. It also creates havoc for the defenders, including the wingers. IT ELIMINATES OPPORTUNITIES TO GAIN POSSESSION AND DISTRIBUTION OUTLETS TO MOVE THE PUCK UP ICE! It halts opportunities if the Leafs do gain possession to move the puck up the ice.

But oh yeah, some blogger somewhere else that doesn't know what to look for or actually pay attention to what's going on THINKS otherwise. What a joke!

You tried Defending him by using the fact that he faces the best Q of C.....but he is poor against them. The blogger is bang on....if you are going to use the QOC to defend him, then his result while playing against those and other players is very valid.

I hold him accountable for his play and his lack of leadership.....that is on him, not on his teammates.

His influence on the play when on the ice is very noticeable....he does not separate man from puck, he can not play against the cycle because he is a poor transitional skater. He does not box out our opponents when the puck goes to the point....he adds to the screening of our goalie. He ices the puck more then any other D man on the team. He is second to lots of pucks he could be first to, and tracks the puck worse then any D man on the team.....other then that he has been good defensively!

 

[yubbers]

Yeah he logs a ton of minutes because the other guys clearly can't handle the time.

Feel free to comment on the +/- numbers I re-posted from Diceman since the break. Cause that tells an opposite tale

 

[leafs in five]

http://www.extraskater.com/players/on-ice?sit=5v5&dir=reverse&pos=D&sort=corsi_pct&min_gp=50

 

[McGuiresMonsters]

Phaneuf's not a plug, but he's a fringe #1D or a good 2D. I think he is already declining as he's already very slow and the league just continues to get faster.

 

[diceman934]

So you want him to take a stupid penalty, drop the gloves and leave the Leafs short a defenseman when they are trailing? Yeah, great point, that sounds smart sparky!



He was on a shift-change you idiot.



So it's now a requirement that he must deal with the generally stupid and completely clueless Toronto media? The same media planting these seeds in your head?



So first he wasn't challenging others, and now he's taking stupid penalties. Are you outta your mind?



Actually, if you paid attention and watched the games you would see that the Leafs have several different problems. Mostly, the breakout, how they play in the neutral zone, and how they don't challenge the puck-carrier much entering the neutral zone. But oh yeah...Dion didn't speak to the media. Great point!



You don't get it. Hockey is a team game, and what the forwards do greatly affect the outcomes and decisions that the defenseman have to deal with it.



What is this? Some kind of side-show circus viewing? Seek help man...

You calling me an idiot .....too funny. His team mate was laying on the ice....he was not on a shift change....the refs called the period!

Yes it is a captains responsibility to be available to the media after a game.

I watch all the games and understand what I'm watching....your comments above leads me to believe that you have no idea about what you are watching.

 

[hockeystick89]

Eh he's been having monumental screw ups every odd game ever since he was traded here. It seems like the extreme homers will defend his every mistake unless it happens in an important game where he costs the team such as last night, or games 4 and 7 of the playoffs last year. The guy is at his best when you don't notice him on the ice. TBH though, he doesn't do that consistently enough and even when he is at his best, it's nowhere near the best of the other top defencemen in the league. Hence why so many people in hockey think he is overrated and overpaid.

The guy may not be a plug per se, but for a guy who is supposed to be one of the best players on the team, there are far too many nights when he is the worst.

 

[-DeMo-]

And which of those teams is thought of, or has already been a Stanley Cup winner, because they have a well-balanced roster? Care to take a guess?

so the coach is the issue because he's trying to get the team to play similar style to recent cup champs and current cup contenders? a system that is proven to be successful? that's why your upset at the coach?

 

[Banic]

Phaneuf's not a plug, but he's a fringe #1D or a good 2D. I think he is already declining as he's already very slow and the league just continues to get faster.

Yep. As I've said in previous threads when I was called out. The VAST majority of players do not play past 35. The VAST majority of players decline at least a couple of years before retirement. On top of that Phaneuf is not an elite Skater, he plays a physical brand of hockey and he's not smart enough to adapt his game during the recline. So why do we sign him to a 7x7 contract? It was insanity to sign him to that then, and even moreso now. He is not a top 10 dman, likely not a top 20.

The numbers aren't even that difficult to read, had he signed an 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 3 or something contract the hit would be 5.14 a year. I realize he would never sign that, but then it wouldn't armbar the team in 4 years. Great leader.

 

[leafs in five]

Leafs have surrendered over 400 more shot attempts than they have made with Phaneuf on the ice this season.

seven more years of this guy.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Since the break

Dion -9
Ranger +6
Gunnar +2
Reilly -1
Gardiner -2
Franson -1

But, but that other d.......

Where's Gleason?

 

[hockeystick89]

Yep. As I've said in previous threads when I was called out. The VAST majority of players do not play past 35. The VAST majority of players decline at least a couple of years before retirement. On top of that Phaneuf is not an elite Skater, he plays a physical brand of hockey and he's not smart enough to adapt his game during the recline. So why do we sign him to a 7x7 contract? It was insanity to sign him to that then, and even moreso now. He is not a top 10 dman, likely not a top 20.

The numbers aren't even that difficult to read, had he signed an 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 3 or something contract the hit would be 5.14 a year. I realize he would never sign that, but then it wouldn't armbar the team in 4 years. Great leader.

But Phaneuf does his leadership on the ice!

 

[yubbers]

Where's Gleason?

Good eye. Also didn't notice his absence as I was re posting

-6

 

[moonbal]

Lol, you guys are hilarious. I love my fellow Leaf fans. The ficklest of fickle.

Everyone was questioning whether he was worth signing long term. He wasn't.
You don't have doubts with proven elite players.
This is a case of "I told you so" coming back and kicking you in the nuts every damn game.

 

[diceman934]

Where's Gleason?

Gleason is minus 5

 

[diceman934]

Good eye. Also didn't notice his absence as I was re posting

-6

I posted the stats since Carlyle started with the 7 man rotation .....and even in the last couple since Ranger went down...he has still used a rotation of different D pairings.

So since Carlyle started using Dion with our partners and Not just Gunnar.....his plus minus stat has went south.

 

[Pierre Gotye]

Feel free to comment on the +/- numbers I re-posted from Diceman since the break. Cause that tells an opposite tale

+/- Stats are dumb. Also like block-shots stats are dumb, as well as faceoffs stats. Which actually shot little worth overall.

They tell you very little, about how a player performs. Awful players sometimes play with great players and have bloated +/- numbers, and the same is true for great players surrounded by awful players.

They are misleading stats at best, and hold little relevance in judging a players worth.

 

[Pierre Gotye]

Everyone was questioning whether he was worth signing long term. He wasn't.
You don't have doubts with proven elite players.
This is a case of "I told you so" coming back and kicking you in the nuts every damn game.

There was a noticeable team change when Dion came here. There is also a noticeable change when Dion isn't in the lineup.

Don't wish for his absence, unless you feel comfortable with watching the team regress and get even worse.

 

[diceman934]

+/- Stats are dumb. Also like block-shots stats are dumb, as well as faceoffs stats. Which actually shot little worth overall.

They tell you very little, about how a player performs. Awful players sometimes play with great players and have bloated +/- numbers, and the same is true for great players surrounded by awful players.

They are misleading stats at best, and hold little relevance in judging a players worth.

I agree, my reply was to a poster who was posting plus minus to support Dion....I simply posted the stats to show just what effect that going to a rotation of partner and not set partners has done to Dion's stats....In this case over 15 games Dion has been the worse in the plus minus....

Block shots and faceoff stats are very valid and worthy! at Least in most of the hockey world they are!