Post-Game Talk: Pens vs Wild Loss: We miss you Flower

[Gurglesons]

Ok.

You’ll be the first one bitching about it!

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

You’ll be the first one bitching about it!

Buddy your entire existence on here is being a psychotic malcontent about everything. If there's something you're not bitching about, you don't know about it yet.

 

[Gurglesons]

Buddy your entire existence on here is being a psychotic malcontent about everything. If there's something you're not bitching about, you don't know about it yet.

Not at all. Just an objective fan of the game.

It is funny to see all the Crosby era fans on Twitter pretend they were invested in the team in the late 90s early 00s when they were like 3 though.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

ob·jec·tive
/əbˈjektiv/

(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
"historians try to be objective and impartial"

I don't think he gets it at all.

To assume all of us just despised that team, clearly doesn't get that it was all we had. What was the alternative? Not watching? We all knew the situation, they were broke, they had rumours of being moved, so the best we could do is just be happy about the shit we had and enjoy it. So that's exactly what we did. I mean I am sure blokes like myself and @Big Friggin Dummy knew the Rico Fata's, Ramzi Abid's, etc were never going to be stars, but hell, we had to hope they'd be something lol.

But I can say for myself, that team wasn't well coached and it was obvious, but the effort was there and whatever system coaches like Constantine, Kehoe and Edzo tried to put out there, we knew they were only going to be able to execute it as well as the coaches understood it themselves. Edzo and Kehoe tried a ton of shit too, they were desperately trying whatever they could to try to win more games with what they had, the effort was there, the talent wasn't and the coaching was never as good as it should be but you didn't really expect them to suddenly win a shit ton. They went through a lot of coaches too in a span of 5 seasons or so - Constantine, Brooks, Hlinka, Kehoe, Edzo...

But they had moments where they were good for stretches when they were healthy which was always kind of cool to see. Like in 2003-04, the last 20 games they finished 12-5-3-0 and had the top powerplay in that span, as a big fan of Morozov - he led the way in that final 20, he had 22pts in 18 games. Mario was already hurt playing 10 games, so you had Ric Jackman, Milan Kraft, Morozov, Tarnstrom and Pirjeta stepping up in a big way. To say we didn't watch or care, lol, a lot of are ride or die with this idiotic team, even in the current state owned by a shitty corporation and a truly awful coach.

The team now?

Sullivan's had talent that he's driven out, he also misuses his roster every f***ing game, doesn't make adjustments and the blame seems to shift to the GM's for not giving him the right players yet there's no such thing as the right players under this coach.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Stacking the top line to ruin 3 other lines is ridiculous. Not even a dipshit like Bylsma ever did that. Sullivan doing that is another indication that he's lost the plot entirely.

This cognitive dissonance pisses me off more than anything.

Bylsma ran Malkin-Crosby on the top line multiple times throughout his tenure.

NaturalStatTrick can only track linemates in three year chunks. Here is the shared TOI for Sid and Geno at 5-on-5. No power play. No 4-on-4. No empty net. Pure even strength.

THERRIEN
2007/08 - 343:19 minutes together

THERRIEN/BYLSMA
2008/09 - 366:46 minutes together

BYLSMA
2009/10 - 170:48 minutes together
2010/11 to 2011/12 - 206:40 minutes together
2012/13 to 2013/14 - 138:10 minutes together

JOHNSTON
2014/15 - 69:55 minutes together

JOHNSTON/SULLIVAN
2015/16 - 31:07 minutes together

SULLIVAN
2016/17 to 2018/19 - 42:28 minutes together
2019/20 to 2021/22 - 58:46 minutes together
2022/23 to 2024/25 - 102:52 minutes together

Dan Bylsma stacked lines with Geno and Sid together far more than Sullivan ever has, though Therrien was far more aggressive than anyone.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

This cognitive dissonance pisses me off more than anything.

Bylsma ran Malkin-Crosby on the top line multiple times throughout his tenure.

NaturalStatTrick can only track linemates in three year chunks. Here is the shared TOI for Sid and Geno at 5-on-5. No power play. No 4-on-4. No empty net. Pure even strength.

THERRIEN
2007/08 - 343:19 minutes together

THERRIEN/BYLSMA
2008/09 - 366:46 minutes together

BYLSMA
2009/10 - 170:48 minutes together
2010/11 to 2011/12 - 206:40 minutes together
2012/13 to 2013/14 - 138:10 minutes together

JOHNSTON
2014/15 - 69:55 minutes together

JOHNSTON/SULLIVAN
2015/16 - 31:07 minutes together

SULLIVAN
2016/17 to 2018/19 - 42:28 minutes together
2019/20 to 2021/22 - 58:46 minutes together
2022/23 to 2024/25 - 102:52 minutes together

Dan Bylsma stacked lines with Geno and Sid together far more than Sullivan ever has, though Therrien was far more aggressive than anyone.

It really doesn't matter how many minutes they were tried together by any other coach because in those situations for one Therrien had them as rookies, Bylsma suffered probably the worst stretch of injuries the Penguins have had in the Crosby era, where they were a top 5 team for man games lost and we had jokes for how long certain players would even last, like Eaton etc. So to that point, yeah they were tried often, no one disputes that, often late in games, etc and during rough stretches of injuries to get some goals when they needed to score.

The issue right now is that without trying other things, he's directly gone to that as his only hope and its still resulting in the same, except now the depth scoring is f***ed up. Last game he had Hayes playing 6mins...SIX f***ING MINUTES. Puljujarvi played less than 5mins. Beauvillier deserved less minutes for how f***ing awful he was in that game, but even he got double what JP got. He just does not get bench management at all, the way he spreads out minutes, what he prioritizes, is a coach that has no f***ing clue how to fix anything.

That's awful bench management, the issue is less that he used the two headed monster and more so that he had L2-L4 working and he refused to try anything new for Crosby's line that wasn't done before already, it was just more of the same, ignoring others to try, then eventually he went to this as an option.

It doesn't matter how many f***ing minutes they played together for any other coach. The situation is the issue, this team wasn't in need of putting those two together because they lacked scoring, scoring was never the issue this season - defense is. Crosby's line is also a f***ing disaster defensively, so Rakell on that line was a push in the right direction, but then he wouldn't try Bunting there to get him going, he would go back to Beauvillier or O'Connor as the only two options for that line.

Every single line has gone to shit because of that trio being put together, we went from at least having 3 out of 4 lines that were somewhat decent to good to one. That is why doing this just to get Crosby going is aboslutely idiotic when they didn't even do that last year when Malkin was struggling, so who gives a f*** if Crosby sucks ass, was it worth it to ruin the rest of the lines? Absolutely not.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

In the Canucks game - He just needed to keep the Doc-Sid-Raks line together a little longer, to give up on it so fast after finally bumping Raks to that line was just stupid.

Even in that game, he refused to try Bunting with Sid and Rakell, why? You want to get 1 player going so you try the desperation move of Malkin w/Sid & Raks, but then you throw every other line off because you really want to try the bare minimum to get Bunting going? He did more to get Beauvillier going, lol. Btw, vs Minnesota he had Bunting with Sid for a shift or so, they weren't bad together at all (considering the circumstance where the entire team was).

The key was putting Rakell with Crosby, in that game even after Beauvillier looked good as well with Geno and Rust (before he got hurt), even Beau with Sid & Rakell looked pretty decent. It was always the pairing that should have been a thing from the start of this season, but Sullivan didn't just ignore the eye test, he also ignored quite literally every single f***ing metric that backs that up just to appease Rust who he panders to incessantly.

So now he gets to whine about how his roster isn't good enough because of the way he uses it and everyone gets to shift their frustrating from Sullivan to the GM, which is typical in Sullivan's scapegoat playbook.

 

[Gurglesons]

This cognitive dissonance pisses me off more than anything.

Bylsma ran Malkin-Crosby on the top line multiple times throughout his tenure.

NaturalStatTrick can only track linemates in three year chunks. Here is the shared TOI for Sid and Geno at 5-on-5. No power play. No 4-on-4. No empty net. Pure even strength.

THERRIEN
2007/08 - 343:19 minutes together

THERRIEN/BYLSMA
2008/09 - 366:46 minutes together

BYLSMA
2009/10 - 170:48 minutes together
2010/11 to 2011/12 - 206:40 minutes together
2012/13 to 2013/14 - 138:10 minutes together

JOHNSTON
2014/15 - 69:55 minutes together

JOHNSTON/SULLIVAN
2015/16 - 31:07 minutes together

SULLIVAN
2016/17 to 2018/19 - 42:28 minutes together
2019/20 to 2021/22 - 58:46 minutes together
2022/23 to 2024/25 - 102:52 minutes together

Dan Bylsma stacked lines with Geno and Sid together far more than Sullivan ever has, though Therrien was far more aggressive than anyone.

What’s the cognitive dissonance?

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

I really don’t give a shit anymore.

I saw 3 Cups I’m good

Life’s too short to agonize over this garbage.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I just don't get how as a coach, you see your team can score and that you should work on minimizing shots and figuring out better defense pairings and notice that Gryzelck is tanking every pairing he's on, but instead he just ignores all of it and decides he needs to stack Geno with Sid and Rakell, then plays Puljujarvi less than 5mins and Hayes less than 7mins in that game while having all of the lines look like a mess except that one.

Even Eller's line was garbage, his line was reliable before this game. Also, Sid's line still gave up as many high danger shots they created.

One thing is for certain, all those that cried about more goals on the powerplay last season would have had them make the playoffs, well this year the powerplay is better, yet in the standings they're 2nd last in the league.

LOL

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I dislike Sullivan more than most on here, but this is ridiculous. Under Byslma, we had a perennial top 3-5 roster in the league. Of course we were never going missing the playoffs. We probably should've had another cup or 2 under DB.

Now we have a bottom 3-5 roster in the league. I accept it because I knew it was coming. This is how the process works. It doesn’t change how poor of a coach Dan Byslma was during his tenure here.

106 point season with Crosby missing 60 games and Malkin missing 39. Pushed Tampa to G7 and lost by a goal without either of them. Current Sullivan would get like 70 points in that situation.
Nah, I'm gonna strip him of all credit. He was a good regular season coach. Good motivator. Created a healthy atmosphere. A lot of guys had career years under him.
We had far less sleepy games back then, and we were more resilient.

Our Center depth is still pretty good. Bottom-six scoring is good. Our PK is good. PP is 12th. Blomqvist is playing above average and Jarry can be league average too. We have 3 core defensemen performing well below what they're capable of defensively, and a 4th one who potentially could be re-integrated into the top-4 and reduce the damage. Crosby has slacked for 7 of the games. Puljujarvi, Glass and Puustinen are underused. We use weird top-six choices. Bunting was stripped of PP1 and stowed away on L4 now, putting a very capable winger in a position to not get out of this.

This is not a bottom 3-5 roster. It's being undercoached to the point that it's perceived that way. Someone else would do better, like Woodcroft.
The Kraken currently have the 2nd best goal differential in the Pacific. Bylsma is doing totally fine, with no superstars at all on that team. He may get them back to the playoffs even.

Bylsma was .668 for Pittsburgh. That's a strong af average, in any situation. Our teams didn't have great defensive depth, and often weak bottom-sixes. I would definitely say in regular seasons he outperformed the conditions. We had the worst injuries of any team over his stay as well.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

What’s the cognitive dissonance?

There's enough material to criticize Sullivan about. We don't need to rewrite history in an attempt to paint Bylsma as a better coach.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

They were just gonna lose at a later time in those 3 years. They weren't defending well enough to win championships, and well-rounded beast teams were waiting in the Finals, unlike 2016 and 2017.
We won in 2009 against a beast, balanced team because we had our D-men playing well above their career average levels at the same time.
So don't worry about it. No Cups were lost.

The Penguins had the best roster in 2011 and 2012. Bylsma, Fleury, and injuries to 87 and 71 in 2011 was why they didn't win cups those years

 

[DesertedPenguin]

It really doesn't matter how many minutes they were tried together by any other coach because in those situations for one Therrien had them as rookies, Bylsma suffered probably the worst stretch of injuries the Penguins have had in the Crosby era, where they were a top 5 team for man games lost and we had jokes for how long certain players would even last, like Eaton etc. So to that point, yeah they were tried often, no one disputes that, often late in games, etc and during rough stretches of injuries to get some goals when they needed to score.

The issue right now is that without trying other things, he's directly gone to that as his only hope and its still resulting in the same, except now the depth scoring is f***ed up. Last game he had Hayes playing 6mins...SIX f***ING MINUTES. Puljujarvi played less than 5mins. Beauvillier deserved less minutes for how f***ing awful he was in that game, but even he got double what JP got. He just does not get bench management at all, the way he spreads out minutes, what he prioritizes, is a coach that has no f***ing clue how to fix anything.

That's awful bench management, the issue is less that he used the two headed monster and more so that he had L2-L4 working and he refused to try anything new for Crosby's line that wasn't done before already, it was just more of the same, ignoring others to try, then eventually he went to this as an option.

It doesn't matter how many f***ing minutes they played together for any other coach. The situation is the issue, this team wasn't in need of putting those two together because they lacked scoring, scoring was never the issue this season - defense is. Crosby's line is also a f***ing disaster defensively, so Rakell on that line was a push in the right direction, but then he wouldn't try Bunting there to get him going, he would go back to Beauvillier or O'Connor as the only two options for that line.

Every single line has gone to shit because of that trio being put together, we went from at least having 3 out of 4 lines that were somewhat decent to good to one. That is why doing this just to get Crosby going is aboslutely idiotic when they didn't even do that last year when Malkin was struggling, so who gives a f*** if Crosby sucks ass, was it worth it to ruin the rest of the lines? Absolutely not.

L2 - L4 haven't been working. Maybe they've scored some, but they've all generally sucked. This entire team has sucked. Nothing has worked so well that it should be protected amidst other changes.

 

[Gurglesons]

There's enough material to criticize Sullivan about. We don't need to rewrite history in an attempt to paint Bylsma as a better coach.

Bylsma is a better coach though?

 

[Turin]

The Penguins had the best roster in 2011 and 2012. Bylsma, Fleury, and injuries to 87 and 71 in 2011 was why they didn't win cups those years

I still have the pre-series tale of the tape of 2012 burned into my mind.


Goals for - Pens advantage
Goals against - Pens advantage
Powerplay - Pens slight advantage
PK - Pens advantage
Goaltending - Pens slight advantage

Result: Flyers in 6

 

[BusinessGoose]

I feel the 5OT loss was the worst from the Flyers.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

That 2012 Flyers series was a carnival shitshow

 

[Honour Over Glory]

L2 - L4 haven't been working. Maybe they've scored some, but they've all generally sucked. This entire team has sucked. Nothing has worked so well that it should be protected amidst other changes.

The Mike Sullivan effect.

106 point season with Crosby missing 60 games and Malkin missing 39. Pushed Tampa to G7 and lost by a goal without either of them. Current Sullivan would get like 70 points in that situation.
Nah, I'm gonna strip him of all credit. He was a good regular season coach. Good motivator. Created a healthy atmosphere. A lot of guys had career years under him.
We had far less sleepy games back then, and we were more resilient.

Our Center depth is still pretty good. Bottom-six scoring is good. Our PK is good. PP is 12th. Blomqvist is playing above average and Jarry can be league average too. We have 3 core defensemen performing well below what they're capable of defensively, and a 4th one who potentially could be re-integrated into the top-4 and reduce the damage. Crosby has slacked for 7 of the games. Puljujarvi, Glass and Puustinen are underused. We use weird top-six choices. Bunting was stripped of PP1 and stowed away on L4 now, putting a very capable winger in a position to not get out of this.

This is not a bottom 3-5 roster. It's being undercoached to the point that it's perceived that way. Someone else would do better, like Woodcroft.
The Kraken currently have the 2nd best goal differential in the Pacific. Bylsma is doing totally fine, with no superstars at all on that team. He may get them back to the playoffs even.

Bylsma was .668 for Pittsburgh. That's a strong af average, in any situation. Our teams didn't have great defensive depth, and often weak bottom-sixes. I would definitely say in regular seasons he outperformed the conditions. We had the worst injuries of any team over his stay as well.

It's wild we still have Sullivan supporters here that will shift the narrative to Dubas when the focus should be Sullivan.

They did that with Hextall with Yohe and Rossi feeding that bullshit. They got everyone to focus on Hex when it should have been Sullivan. Then we'd have both canned. Now we're f***ed until 2027 and then after that when Sullivan becomes GM, forever..

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

What’s the cognitive dissonance?

Any criticism of Sullivan's bench management.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Delete

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The Penguins had the best roster in 2011 and 2012. Bylsma, Fleury, and injuries to 87 and 71 in 2011 was why they didn't win cups those years

2011 I'll give the nod to the .713 Canucks as best roster. President's Trophy winners by a mile for a reason. Still think the Bruins defense and goaltending would have shut us down. Thomas .940.
2012 is a legit case for Pens best roster, but the Kings seemed like a nightmare matchup for anyone. They went 16-4. Quick was on fire. Think they woulda just bullied us to death outside of that, with all of their 200+ lb'ers. Sutter had them completely bought-in. They were hungrier than anyone and giving nobody time and space.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

2011 I'll give the nod to the .713 Canucks as best roster. President's Trophy winners by a mile for a reason. Still think the Bruins defense and goaltending would have shut us down. Thomas .940.
2012 is a legit case for Pens best roster, but the Kings seemed like a nightmare matchup for anyone. They went 16-4. Quick was on fire. Think they woulda just bullied us to death outside of that, with all of their 200+ lb'ers. Sutter had them completely bought-in. They were hungrier than anyone and giving nobody time and space.

I think the Pens and Canucks were clearly the two best teams, but the Penguins had an almost identical goal differential at 41 games (+40 to +42) when Crosby got hurt and then added Neal and Niskanen later in the year.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

but what if you ... stay with me here... COLLAPSE every 2nd and 3rd period.

Sullivan is just playing 4D chess.

Why use 4 lines when you can use 2 in the game and make zero adjustments to the other team running a train on yours?

Sullivan just playing paint by numbers during a game of metaverse chess.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Bylsma is a better coach though?

He achieved less with more resources. The only reason you think he's better is because it's been 10 years since he was in Pittsburgh and his worst traits have faded in everyone's memories.

How quickly we forget the Craig Adams and Tanner Glass experience, or Brian Gibbons on the first line, or Iginla on his off wing, or playing ancient Brendan Morrow 15 minutes per game, and so much more.

Mike Sullivan should be fired. But he's still better than Dan Bylsma.