Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: Dull days of August... Oooo! A trade!

[Empoleon8771]

The rankings I looked at had Koivunen at 6th. I would put money on none of the players acquired in the trade will go on to produce anything near what Jake has, and will.

Why would any team trade a prospect that has the potential to be a 40 goal, PPG player for a rental 40 goal, PPG winger?

Guentzel didn't bring back a guy like Lekkerimaki or Nadeau because teams don't trade Lekkerimaki or Nadeau type of prospects for rentals.

So 7 is now in the 4-6 range + around a top 5 prospect?

I don’t know why we have to defend that trade. It sucked.

It’s looking like the 2nd rounder we got could be a solid steal, Bunting has been good and Pono could potentially be a bottom six forward.

Trading a 40G 90pt UFA for that package is pretty shit tho.

It’s entirely splitting hairs for whether a guy is ranked 5th or 7th in a prospect pool. Anyone ranked in that tier is almost always on the same level, unless you have a ton of top tier prospects.

Koivunen is a former 2nd rounder, B caliber prospect just like Ponomarev and Broz. That's usually the caliber of prospect that an average prospect pool would have around 5th in their prospect pool.

 

[eXile3]

I don’t know why I keep arguing about this. We should be grateful that we had a player like Jake.

It won’t take more than a few years to judge that trade.

 

[ThosePuckingPenguins]

I don’t know, I don’t think Jake only wanted money but I’m not sure I’d take him saying “I wanted to be a Penguin” as being completely truthful either. IIRC the Hurricanes matched exactly what he said he wanted contract wise and he still didn’t sign there.

I don’t blame Jake at all for wanting to go to a contender and for being paid and ultimately it was the right move for us not to give him that contract. I don’t think Jake and his agent are exactly good faith negotiators though. All in all, both sides made the right choice.

 

[Pancakes]

Giroux fetched a first as well as Owen Tippett. It would have been nice to trade Jake in that type of deal. Flyers hit a home run with that one.

Hard to say what other offers were on the table for Jake, though. If Dubas chose quantity over a package like that then that's probably a bit questionable. But I don't know what the Rangers or other interested teams were actually offering.

 

[DearDiary]

I don't care that Guentzal put up 40 goals 90 points considering how much he was floating. The last 2 seasons he barely skated if there wasn't a scoring chance. Rust also seemed to be leaning that way but played a much more complete game after the deadline. The only reason I dislike the trade is because the Pens now have 2 old players in their top 6 with no one able to create plays on their line. I would hope Sullivan sees this and uses utilizes Karlsson more as a play maker.

 

[Gurglesons]

Giroux fetched a first as well as Owen Tippett. It would have been nice to trade Jake in that type of deal. Flyers hit a home run with that one.

Hard to say what other offers were on the table for Jake, though.
If Dubas chose quantity over a package like that then that's probably a bit questionable. But I don't know what the Rangers or other interested teams were actually offering.

It is absolutely insane that Dubas couldn’t seal a comparable Giroux return for Guentzel.

Why would any team trade a prospect that has the potential to be a 40 goal, PPG player for a rental 40 goal, PPG winger?

Guentzel didn't bring back a guy like Lekkerimaki or Nadeau because teams don't trade Lekkerimaki or Nadeau type of prospects for rentals.



It’s entirely splitting hairs for whether a guy is ranked 5th or 7th in a prospect pool. Anyone ranked in that tier is almost always on the same level, unless you have a ton of top tier prospects.

Koivunen is a former 2nd rounder, B caliber prospect just like Ponomarev and Broz. That's usually the caliber of prospect that an average prospect pool would have around 5th in their prospect pool.

Then don’t use verbiage to make Koivunen seem like he’s a top prospect. “2. Both Ponomarev and Koivunen were top-5 prospects for the Canes.”

He is a Broz. Probably worse because he doesn’t have enough in his game to be a bottom six forward. Top six or bust vibes.

 

[Ryder71]

I don't care that Guentzal put up 40 goals 90 points considering how much he was floating. The last 2 seasons he barely skated if there wasn't a scoring chance. Rust also seemed to be leaning that way but played a much more complete game after the deadline. The only reason I dislike the trade is because the Pens now have 2 old players in their top 6 with no one able to create plays on their line. I would hope Sullivan sees this and uses utilizes Karlsson more as a play maker.

PPL fail to understand we weren't going anywhere with Jake anyhow. Dubas got a good package that will pay dividends down the road. There's just a lot of misguided Jake fanbois round here.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Then don’t use verbiage to make Koivunen seem like he’s a top prospect. “2. Both Ponomarev and Koivunen were top-5 prospects for the Canes.”

He is a Broz. Probably worse because he doesn’t have enough in his game to be a bottom six forward. Top six or bust vibes.

Stop making up things people aren't saying. No one ever called Koivunen a "top prospect". The original post said "the Penguins couldn't get a top-5 prospect for Guentzel". My point was that they got 2 (or 2 that are borderline at worst) top-5 prospects from Carolina.

Giroux fetched a first as well as Owen Tippett. It would have been nice to trade Jake in that type of deal. Flyers hit a home run with that one.

Hard to say what other offers were on the table for Jake, though. If Dubas chose quantity over a package like that then that's probably a bit questionable. But I don't know what the Rangers or other interested teams were actually offering.

Issue here is that Tippett's stock was in the dumpster at the time of that trade. It looks amazing now because Tippett broke out when he got to Philly, but he was quickly looking like a bust in Florida. The return wasn't viewed as good for the Flyers at the time of the deal. At the time, Tippett was 22 and only had 33 points in 94 games in the NHL.

I don't really see how Tippett, a 1st and a 3rd is better than Bunting, Koivunen, Ponomarev, Lucius and a 2nd.

 

[Darren McCord]

It is absolutely insane that Dubas couldn’t seal a comparable Giroux return for Guentzel.



Then don’t use verbiage to make Koivunen seem like he’s a top prospect. “2. Both Ponomarev and Koivunen were top-5 prospects for the Canes.”

He is a Broz. Probably worse because he doesn’t have enough in his game to be a bottom six forward. Top six or bust vibes.

While I wish the pens would have got a comparable return they went for quantity and NHL readiness. Tippet popping off was not guaranteed. He was 23 with a career high of 18 pts. He was not seen as a top player coming back, go read the trade thread.

Also the flyers got the 32 overall pick for that first. It was literally barely a first rounder.

Giroux - Jake
32 overall pick - 44 overall pick
Tippet - Bunting
3rd - Pono (2nd Rounder)
XXX - Koivunen (2nd Rounder)
XXX - Cruz (4th Rounder)

If Bunting puts up 40 - 50 pts by the deadline and you can move him for a late 1rst or 2nd+ prospect. The value is pretty similar. But that is if they move Bunting which they won't.

 

[Empoleon8771]

While I wish the pens would have got a comparable return they went for quantity and NHL readiness. Tippet popping off was not guaranteed. He was 23 with a career high of 18 pts. He was not seen as a top player coming back, go read the trade thread.

Also the flyers got the 32 overall pick for that first. It was literally barely a first rounder.

Giroux - Jake
32 overall pick - 44 overall pick
Tippet - Bunting
3rd - Pono (2nd Rounder)
XXX - Koivunen (2nd Rounder)
XXX - Cruz (4th Rounder)

If Bunting puts up 40 - 50 pts by the deadline and you can move him for a late 1rst or 2nd+ prospect. The value is pretty similar. But that is if they move Bunting which they won't.

Yeah it's pure revisionist history to act like the Giroux deal was way better than the Guentzel return. It turned out great for Philly because Tippett broke out, but Tippett wasn't a highly valued asset at the time of the deal.

The Flyers likely got the best asset in the two deals with Tippett, but I'm pretty confident the Penguins will end up with the better overall return between a few years of Bunting (and then presumably trading him) and at least one of Ponomarev, Koivunen or Lucius panning out.

 

[Malkinstheman]

It's insane how many people think the Guentzel trade returned bad value because it didn't return a first round pick. Carolina's pick was #27 and the Pens Received #44. An astronomical 16 pick difference.

Saying that #32 + Tippet + 3rd/5th round swap is better than Bunting + the equivalent of 3 2nds and a 4th is complaining for the sake of complaining.

 

[ThosePuckingPenguins]

It's insane how many people think the Guentzel trade returned bad value because it didn't return a first round pick. Carolina's pick was #27 and the Pens Received #44. An astronomical 16 pick difference.

Saying that #32 + Tippet + 3rd/5th round swap is better than Bunting + the equivalent of 3 2nds and a 4th is complaining for the sake of complaining.

Doesn’t sound like this board.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I just hope one of those prospects we got from Carolina actually pans out as more than a 4th liner.

 

[Gurglesons]

I just hope one of those prospects we got from Carolina actually pans out as more than a 4th liner.

I like Pono. I just feel like his upside is basically like Nic Roy.

Stop making up things people aren't saying. No one ever called Koivunen a "top prospect". The original post said "the Penguins couldn't get a top-5 prospect for Guentzel". My point was that they got 2 (or 2 that are borderline at worst) top-5 prospects from Carolina.



Issue here is that Tippett's stock was in the dumpster at the time of that trade. It looks amazing now because Tippett broke out when he got to Philly, but he was quickly looking like a bust in Florida. The return wasn't viewed as good for the Flyers at the time of the deal. At the time, Tippett was 22 and only had 33 points in 94 games in the NHL.

I don't really see how Tippett, a 1st and a 3rd is better than Bunting, Koivunen, Ponomarev, Lucius and a 2nd.

Because it was a 1st and a young roster player?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Because it was a 1st and a young roster player?

Tippett and pick #32 is not better than Bunting, Ponomarev, Koivunen, Lucius and pick #44.

 

[Gurglesons]

Tippett and pick #32 is not better than Bunting, Ponomarev, Koivunen, Lucius and pick #44.

Nobody we got in the trade for Guentzel has the upside that Tippett had.

They also got a 1st which is a better asset then any of “the futures” we got.

Cue some idiot trying to act like Bunting is a legit 1st line winger because he played shotgun with Matthews, Malkin and Tavares.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Nobody we got in the trade for Guentzel has the upside that Tippett had.

They also got a 1st which is a better asset then any of “the futures” we got.

Cue some idiot trying to act like Bunting is a legit 1st line winger because he played shotgun with Matthews, Malkin and Tavares.

They got the last pick in round 1, which was 12 spots above the 2nd the Penguins got from the Canes.

Tippett had a higher upside than anyone the Penguins got in the deal, sure, but Tippett also had huge bust risk because he was already 23 and was terrible in the NHL. The Flyers got insanely lucky that he broke out after a change of scenery, a ton of guys in his spot end up washing out of the NHL.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Cue some idiot trying to act like Bunting is a legit 1st line winger because he played shotgun with Matthews, Malkin and Tavares.

We already had someone categorizing him as a 60-70 point winger, so clearly some on this forum already have an inflated view of what Bunting's actual upside is.

He's Kunitz-lite. A third wheel who can play with the top guys, but is always going to be the 3rd best forward on that line.

 

[Empoleon8771]

We already had someone categorizing him as a 60-70 point winger, so clearly some on this forum already have an inflated view of what Bunting's actual upside is.

He's Kunitz-lite. A third wheel who can play with the top guys, but is always going to be the 3rd best forward on that line.

That is correct, but I don't know why we're trying to throw that aside as valueless though. He's a nice piece that you can likely get an additional 2nd and prospect for as a rental down the line.

I think you can get another Ponomarev/Koivunen caliber prospect and a 2nd for him at the 2026 deadline.

 

[Rave7215]

So how did our incredible new assets look in the rookie tournament?

Great Actually!

Notable standouts:
LW - McGroaty: 1 goal, 2 pts
RW - Koivunen: 2 assists
C - Broz: 2 goals
C - Ponomarev 1G, hell of a motor
RHD - Brunicke
G - Murashov: 0 goals allowed Game one, 2 Goals Game Two

 

[Rakell67]

While I wish the pens would have got a comparable return they went for quantity and NHL readiness. Tippet popping off was not guaranteed. He was 23 with a career high of 18 pts. He was not seen as a top player coming back, go read the trade thread.

Also the flyers got the 32 overall pick for that first. It was literally barely a first rounder.

Giroux - Jake
32 overall pick - 44 overall pick
Tippet - Bunting
3rd - Pono (2nd Rounder)
XXX - Koivunen (2nd Rounder)
XXX - Cruz (4th Rounder)

If Bunting puts up 40 - 50 pts by the deadline and you can move him for a late 1rst or 2nd+ prospect. The value is pretty similar. But that is if they move Bunting which they won't.

Didn't Giroux have a few years on his contract? He wasn't a rental was he?

 

[Rakell67]

It could also be argued that by not re-signing Guentzel, it opened up cap space to acquire Hayes and a 2nd and Glass and a 3rd+6th.

 

[Darren McCord]

Didn't Giroux have a few years on his contract? He wasn't a rental was he?

no he was a pure rental

 

[Darren McCord]

I think you can get another Ponomarev/Koivunen caliber prospect and a 2nd for him at the 2026 deadline.

Bunting is kinda cheap at 4.5. If he has a hot start for half the year but the pens are out you might be able to sell high on him. Id retain even if you could get a first at this years deadline. You have both Petry and Smith coming off the books.

 

[Gurglesons]

They got the last pick in round 1, which was 12 spots above the 2nd the Penguins got from the Canes.

Tippett had a higher upside than anyone the Penguins got in the deal, sure, but Tippett also had huge bust risk because he was already 23 and was terrible in the NHL. The Flyers got insanely lucky that he broke out after a change of scenery, a ton of guys in his spot end up washing out of the NHL.

The Flyers didn’t get lucky. They scouted a player and made an intelligent decision.

We zeroed in on a 28+ year old and went for more rather than less.

I would have much rather moved Jake for say Kappo, 1st and 3rd then the package we did.