Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: Dull days of August... Oooo! A trade!

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Haha... like I said I'll fully cop to being reactionary if I'm wrong.

I assume to expect the same from ya'll?

Anyway... curious to see how Quinn constructs the powerplay this training camp. One has to assume there will be some truly monumental and energetic changes considering how poor it was last season, yes?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I disagree with this. If you know you can’t win and there really isn’t a path to becoming a contender anytime soon just burn it down. Twiddling your thumbs in purgatory is just a waste of time and how a losing culture finds its way into an organization. Rip the bandaid off as early as possible and try to get lucky on timing that you get another superstar or 2.

Have the difficult discussion with Crosby, Malkin, and Letang and tell them what direction the organization needs to go in and ask if they want out. If they do, make it happen to wherever they want. If they don’t, sell them on the idea of finishing their careers by transitioning the winning culture they created to the next generation of Penguins players.

Slowly declining to the bottom is not purgatory. Purgatory is when you are an average team but you have young players who are good enough to maintain your standing but not good enough to lead your team to the next level. The Penguins are old and will bottom out. I don't know when the right time to do that is but if you try to rush it and don't get franchise players in the draft you will end up in purgatory.

Or, if you just get a franchise player or two from the lottery and don't have any supporting prospects (like the current Penguins do not), then the franchise player lifts you out of the bottom quickly but he never gets enough support to win the cup. Basically LeBron on Cleveland the first time. He was so good they never got any high draft picks afterwards.

This is why rebuilds need to be planned, you need to find a path to winning the cup, even if the execution of that has a lot to do with luck. It's not an either-or of competing for the cup vs. total rebuild mode.

 

[Rakell67]

Slowly declining to the bottom is not purgatory. Purgatory is when you are an average team but you have young players who are good enough to maintain your standing but not good enough to lead your team to the next level. The Penguins are old and will bottom out. I don't know when the right time to do that is but if you try to rush it and don't get franchise players in the draft you will end up in purgatory.

Or, if you just get a franchise player or two from the lottery and don't have any supporting prospects (like the current Penguins do not), then the franchise player lifts you out of the bottom quickly but he never gets enough support to win the cup.

This is why rebuilds need to be planned, you need to find a path to winning the cup, even if the execution of that has a lot to do with luck. It's not an either-or of competing for the cup vs. total rebuild mode.

I feel like a perfect example of this would be the Minnesota Wild.

 

[Pancakes]

I’m talking scorched earth. Anything of value that isn’t bolted down and isn’t a franchise legend that wants to stay is gone. Not bringing a guy like Ned back because he might help win a few games.

Being open with the fan base and saying we had a good long run but it’s time to reset. Instead we get told they’re still trying to compete which makes people with eyes think they’re either lying or very bad at their jobs.

Well, if our stars continue to decline this team might bottom out anyways, so you may get your wish soon.

If they're well out of it by the deadline I imagine Kyle will be selling most anyone that isn't the core off.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Well, if our stars continue to decline this team might bottom out anyways, so you may get your wish soon.

If they're well out of it by the deadline I imagine Kyle will be selling most anyone that isn't the core off.

You sure he'll be allowed?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I feel like a perfect example of this would be the Minnesota Wild.

Exactly. They've built a team that can compete for the playoffs but lack the top end talent to do any more damage.

 

[Pancakes]

You sure he'll be allowed?

If the Pens are relatively healthy and are still well out of it by the deadline then I imagine there will be more selling. Crosby still wouldn't be dealt unless he wants to be but I imagine most anyone else would be fair game.

If they're within striking distance of a playoff spot then I doubt there will be much in the way of trading. Maybe guys on UFA deals like DOC/MP would be dealt assuming that Dubas doesn't think he can retain them.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I disagree with this. If you know you can’t win and there really isn’t a path to becoming a contender anytime soon just burn it down. Twiddling your thumbs in purgatory is just a waste of time and how a losing culture finds its way into an organization. Rip the bandaid off as early as possible and try to get lucky on timing that you get another superstar or 2.

Have the difficult discussion with Crosby, Malkin, and Letang and tell them what direction the organization needs to go in and ask if they want out. If they do, make it happen to wherever they want. If they don’t, sell them on the idea of finishing their careers by transitioning the winning culture they created to the next generation of Penguins players.

The idea that "sitting in purgatory" is how you get a losing culture, but somehow intentionally nuking your roster and becoming bad doesn't give you a losing culture, is absolutely ridiculous. The only thing that burning the roster down guarantees is that you'll be shit in the short term, that's it. Burning the roster down in no way guarantees that this team will be able to build up from the ashes.

Penguins fans have an absolutely silly idea of how rebuilds work because this team hasn't had a rebuild in over 20 years. The reality is that the Penguins got insanely lucky to happen to suck at the exact right time. Most of the time, that doesn't happen. Most of the time, you turn into Buffalo or Columbus.

This isn't even a comment on what they should do, it's saying that sitting in purgatory creates a losing culture while burning a roster down somehow doesn't is absolutely silly.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I feel like a perfect example of this would be the Minnesota Wild.

Yeah the Wild have maintained a consistently good team while never going through any sort of recent rebuild. The Blues are another example of it.

You can totally correctly point out the Wild's terrible playoff track record (career 34-62 record in the playoffs), but the Wild have the 9th best record in hockey since the 2005-2006 season. Their worst season over that window was finishing with 81 points in 82 games.

I think what people need to realize is that there is more than 1 way to create a consistently good team. The Blues, Predators, Rangers and Bruins have been top teams for so long without having any notable stretches of being terrible, while the Penguins, Kings, Oilers and Hawks were built based on those terrible stretches.

 

[SEALBound]

Well, if our stars continue to decline this team might bottom out anyways, so you may get your wish soon.

If they're well out of it by the deadline I imagine Kyle will be selling most anyone that isn't the core off.

The best scenario is Sid resigning for 2-3 years. They stink this year and are jettison Rakell, Rust, Pettersson, and the likes of Accari and Eller for picks and prospects. Pick top 10 in 2025 draft.

Then REALLY stink the following year and finish bottom 3 and get the 1OV and get McKenna. The start the "retool"/"rebuild".

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Dubas chased Jake out, not the other way around. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if it had nothing to do with rebuilding.

I highly doubt this. If Dubas did that more of the team would be pissed and it'd be mentioned more. Jake and his comments about free agency etc seemed like he was always gong to test the market just to test the market. I get blokes want to hate Dubas but I don't think Jake and his camp ever intended to stay and the way they allowed negotiations was basically the best indicator for I am going to make it so I test the market.

Yeah the Wild have maintained a consistently good team while never going through any sort of recent rebuild. The Blues are another example of it.

You can totally correctly point out the Wild's terrible playoff track record (career 34-62 record in the playoffs), but the Wild have the 9th best record in hockey since the 2005-2006 season. Their worst season over that window was finishing with 81 points in 82 games.

I think what people need to realize is that there is more than 1 way to create a consistently good team. The Blues, Predators, Rangers and Bruins have been top teams for so long without having any notable stretches of being terrible, while the Penguins, Kings, Oilers and Hawks were built based on those terrible stretches.

And so many of those teams moved on from coaches when they needed to.


Meanwhile the Pens....

 

[Empoleon8771]

And so many of those teams moved on from coaches when they needed to.


Meanwhile the Pens....

That's why I'd argue it comes down to good management, not how you build the team.

A team with good management can develop into a legitimate contender no matter what path they take. A good manager can make the right moves while making the team a cup contender, no matter whether it's a tear down rebuild path or a maintaining a competitive team path. I think the Blues, Bruins and Stars are the best examples of this.

Dallas has only picked in the top-10 three times and top-5 once in the last 20 drafts. And in the year where they picked top-5, they were the 23rd in the NHL and managed to jump from 8th to 3rd in the draft due to the lottery. Despite that, they still have Heiskanen (3rd overall), Robertson (39th overall), Johnston (23rd overall), Hintz (49th overall), Oettinger (26th overall) and Harley (18th overall) as a pretty damn good young core. They also have Stankoven (47th overall), who has been terrific as a 20 year old in the short sample size in the NHL so far. I'd be shocked if they don't win a cup sometime in the next 5 years.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I’m ok with rebuilding. It’s not the only way to do things but drafting early is a solid way to get high end talent. I also think it’s the best way to get a bunch of shit for guys that don’t make sense to sign to big cap hit long term deals, while sucking and getting too 10 picks. Gotta draft well to make it work but if you do you should have some pieces to build a competitive team around.

The question is when do the Pens pull the trigger on that? Idk.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

You mean the guy who publically acknowledged he was a stubborn.

Versus our guy still getting high on his own farts blathering on about "playing the right way" ?

Yeah. I have more respect for bylsma right now than in a LONG time

A different Dan Bylsma becomes bench boss again with Kraken AHL affiliate

A former Stanley Cup-winner with Penguins is set to call the shots with Coachella Firebirds, an expansion AHL affiliate for the Kraken.

www.nytimes.com

"Maybe I was a stubborn-minded guy thinking there was only one way to play,” Bylsma said. “There isn’t just one way to play.

“I’ve matured as a coach and as a hockey guy. There isn’t one way, there isn’t one right way. Maybe I was stubborn about that before, but I’m more of a mindset now that it’s about getting players to decide as a group how were’ going to play, how we’re going to win, and getting them in the fight and building them up to move in that direction.”

Hey… the thing I applaud most in life if a person that will use mistakes as lessons. I preach to everyone that works for me the worst thing is a wasted mistake. If DB turns around as a coach I’ll love it. And it will only strengthen Penguins lure. But f*** me… him at 8 right now… showing no turn around only words… that was genuinely hilarious to me.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

I’m ok with rebuilding. It’s not the only way to do things but drafting early is a solid way to get high end talent. I also think it’s the best way to get a bunch of shit for guys that don’t make sense to sign to big cap hit long term deals, while sucking and getting too 10 picks. Gotta draft well to make it work but if you do you should have some pieces to build a competitive team around.

The question is when do the Pens pull the trigger on that? Idk.

I think fans needs to stop with what they wish would happen and look at what will happen. This team will fake competitive nature until Crosby retirees. Forget what you wish would happen. Look at the roster. The big guys are here. And apparently are not going anywhere. We have this roster for the most part till Crosby retires and nothing will fundamentally change until then. All the BUT THEY COULD
DO THIS! OR THEY COULD DO THAT! It’s not going to happen. Until Sid retires. Then we rebuild around the young players and draft picks being gathered right now and hope for a good team again. Outside of that i just hope to see Sid, Geno, and Tang in one more playoff. But if not as fans we got everything we could ask for out of this group.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

That's why I'd argue it comes down to good management, not how you build the team.

A team with good management can develop into a legitimate contender no matter what path they take. A good manager can make the right moves while making the team a cup contender, no matter whether it's a tear down rebuild path or a maintaining a competitive team path. I think the Blues, Bruins and Stars are the best examples of this.

Dallas has only picked in the top-10 three times and top-5 once in the last 20 drafts. And in the year where they picked top-5, they were the 23rd in the NHL and managed to jump from 8th to 3rd in the draft due to the lottery. Despite that, they still have Heiskanen (3rd overall), Robertson (39th overall), Johnston (23rd overall), Hintz (49th overall), Oettinger (26th overall) and Harley (18th overall) as a pretty damn good young core. They also have Stankoven (47th overall), who has been terrific as a 20 year old in the short sample size in the NHL so far. I'd be shocked if they don't win a cup sometime in the next 5 years.

It requires both. Management seeing something… and the ability being there. Talbot in 09’ dude is a fringe dude. They saw something in him and kept putting him in unique situations during that playoff. It’s worked. Same with Sheary. Fringe dude. The back to back they saw something put him in unique situations. The ability of the buried ember has to exist and management has to see it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It requires both. Management seeing something… and the ability being there. Talbot in 09’ dude is a fringe dude. They saw something in him and kept putting him in unique situations during that playoff. It’s worked. Same with Sheary. Fringe dude. The back to back they saw something put him in unique situations. The ability of the buried ember has to exist and management has to see it.

That’s not what I meant. I meant it doesn’t matter whether you do a tear down rebuild or if you maintain a good team, what matters is having good management. The Stars, Bruins and Blues are great examples of being consistently good and maintaining that level through great management. They draft well, they make smart trades, they know when to make changes behind the bench and they don’t make rash decisions.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I think fans needs to stop with what they wish would happen and look at what will happen. This team will fake competitive nature until Crosby retirees. Forget what you wish would happen. Look at the roster. The big guys are here. And apparently are not going anywhere. We have this roster for the most part till Crosby retires and nothing will fundamentally change until then. All the BUT THEY COULD
DO THIS! OR THEY COULD DO THAT! It’s not going to happen. Until Sid retires. Then we rebuild around the young players and draft picks being gathered right now and hope for a good team again. Outside of that i just hope to see Sid, Geno, and Tang in one more playoff. But if not as fans we got everything we could ask for out of this group.

Nope, I'm vehemently against this.
Talking about our own respective views of what we'd like to see is a core part of hockey discussion. Always has been like that, across all sports.
It's interesting to hear how people would like things managed and to listen to their ideas, especially if they're intelligent. It sheds light on things that one wouldn't normally consider.
It's healthy to hear about avenues that would give hope for the future of the team we love.

If we were censored into only talking about what will happen, that'd be a tremendously dull board.
Sullivan is as predictable, rigid and dull as coaches get. His fire is gone. We pretty much know how he's gonna deploy everyone who's available to him.
The immediate future is quite depressing for the team. Ownership has committed to pretending until like Sid retires.
They're no longer gonna be trading 1sts and 2nds at deadlines. They are extremely unlikely to get past round 1, if they even make the playoffs.

You wanna talk about what's gonna happen this season? Okay. We can give you a rough idea, but it's gonna be pretty dark.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

That's why I'd argue it comes down to good management, not how you build the team.

A team with good management can develop into a legitimate contender no matter what path they take. A good manager can make the right moves while making the team a cup contender, no matter whether it's a tear down rebuild path or a maintaining a competitive team path. I think the Blues, Bruins and Stars are the best examples of this.

Dallas has only picked in the top-10 three times and top-5 once in the last 20 drafts. And in the year where they picked top-5, they were the 23rd in the NHL and managed to jump from 8th to 3rd in the draft due to the lottery. Despite that, they still have Heiskanen (3rd overall), Robertson (39th overall), Johnston (23rd overall), Hintz (49th overall), Oettinger (26th overall) and Harley (18th overall) as a pretty damn good young core. They also have Stankoven (47th overall), who has been terrific as a 20 year old in the short sample size in the NHL so far. I'd be shocked if they don't win a cup sometime in the next 5 years.

Disco did more with some pretty rancid rosters and severe injuries. Sullivan does less with more but is praised like he did what Disco did with bad rosters.

This is the current reality of this team and it's situation. They'll always blame the players over this coach. Every one is the problem on the roster, not the coach. Unless it's Crosby that finally suffers from Sullivanitis and then and only then does anyone say anything about this team and it's coaching.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

You mean the guy who publically acknowledged he was a stubborn.

Versus our guy still getting high on his own farts blathering on about "playing the right way" ?

Yeah. I have more respect for bylsma right now than in a LONG time

A different Dan Bylsma becomes bench boss again with Kraken AHL affiliate

A former Stanley Cup-winner with Penguins is set to call the shots with Coachella Firebirds, an expansion AHL affiliate for the Kraken.

www.nytimes.com

"Maybe I was a stubborn-minded guy thinking there was only one way to play,” Bylsma said. “There isn’t just one way to play.

“I’ve matured as a coach and as a hockey guy. There isn’t one way, there isn’t one right way. Maybe I was stubborn about that before, but I’m more of a mindset now that it’s about getting players to decide as a group how were’ going to play, how we’re going to win, and getting them in the fight and building them up to move in that direction.”

Disco was a coach with so little experience and thrown into the Pens head coaching role, he succeed far more than anyone thought and because of his insane lack of experience he stuck to what he knew. He admits that. I can respect the f*** out of someone that admits they need to be different to succeed when they really need to. But Sullivan? He was an nhl coach and failed and then was around in coaching in various capacities and scouting, he won 2 cups with the heavy help from Tocchet and then drank his own kool-aid so much that he feels his way is the only way and there's zero flaws.

At least in Discos case getting hyped up recently, he's done a good job as an Assistant in Charlotte and his 2yrs in Coachella. I think he'll have an immediate positive impact with the Kraken and out perform the Penguins with a lesser roster.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

As I see it, Dubas' approach is to try to give the core a *chance* to win in the next year or two so long as it doesn't require any futures assets or cap space commitments.

If the Pens make the playoffs during this transitional period with no cavalry, great. If they aren't in playoff position at the deadline, he'll sell off impending non-core UFAs for whatever futures he can get rather than lose them for nothing. Guys like Eller/Petts/Gryz this year and Bunting/Hayes next year should bring back a few 2nd/3rd round equivalents if we're out of it.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Haha... like I said I'll fully cop to being reactionary if I'm wrong.

I assume to expect the same from ya'll?

Anyway... curious to see how Quinn constructs the powerplay this training camp. One has to assume there will be some truly monumental and energetic changes considering how poor it was last season, yes?

The irony here is the clout this f*** knuckle has for the powerplay in his time as an nhl coach. If Reirden was the problem and not Sullivan then Quinn wasn't the reason any of his powerplays did well.

Brian Wiseman is a fantastic powerplay coach. He's literally known for being one of the f***ing best in the NCAA and had input in San Jose as an Assistant. Which he still remains and moved up in the Assistant ranks for Warsofsky.

Gordon and Wiseman worked on the powerplay. Warsofsky worked on the PK the year Karlsson had a Norris year and spoiler alert they were near the bottom that year. They did better by moving up 4 spots to 21st on the powerplay last season.

In his time in NY, Ruff worked on the Rangers Defense and PK, David Oliver and at times Greg Brown worked on the powerplay for the Rangers.


It's funny. The narrative of Karlsson doing well under him and his powerplay prowess as a coach is a story but when it's the Pens the issue is the assistant coach, which is true to an extent. Reirden ran the powerplay but in his case it was very obvious Sullivan dictated who was allowed to be on it. For Quinn he's getting credit for shit he didn't even do so Pens media can hype him up as a fix for a massive issue when he's never fixed something like that before.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

Nope, I'm vehemently against this.
Talking about our own respective views of what we'd like to see is a core part of hockey discussion. Always has been like that, across all sports.
It's interesting to hear how people would like things managed and to listen to their ideas, especially if they're intelligent. It sheds light on things that one wouldn't normally consider.
It's healthy to hear about avenues that would give hope for the future of the team we love.

If we were censored into only talking about what will happen, that'd be a tremendously dull board.
Sullivan is as predictable, rigid and dull as coaches get. His fire is gone. We pretty much know how he's gonna deploy everyone who's available to him.
The immediate future is quite depressing for the team. Ownership has committed to pretending until like Sid retires.
They're no longer gonna be trading 1sts and 2nds at deadlines. They are extremely unlikely to get past round 1, if they even make the playoffs.

You wanna talk about what's gonna happen this season? Okay. We can give you a rough idea, but it's gonna be pretty dark.

I’m not saying don’t talk about it… I can talk about hypothetical all day. For everything. But I also choose the live in a level of realism that isn’t place in what I want or wish and what I think is most likely to happen. I live more in that place with this team than my wishes.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

Disco was a coach with so little experience and thrown into the Pens head coaching role, he succeed far more than anyone thought and because of his insane lack of experience he stuck to what he knew. He admits that. I can respect the f*** out of someone that admits they need to be different to succeed when they really need to. But Sullivan? He was an nhl coach and failed and then was around in coaching in various capacities and scouting, he won 2 cups with the heavy help from Tocchet and then drank his own kool-aid so much that he feels his way is the only way and there's zero flaws.

At least in Discos case getting hyped up recently, he's done a good job as an Assistant in Charlotte and his 2yrs in Coachella. I think he'll have an immediate positive impact with the Kraken and out perform the Penguins with a lesser roster.

I think you have me wrong that I don’t hope DB becomes a good coach. I hope everyone becomes the best at everything they can be. I have that hope about everyone and everything. But to prop someone at #8 just because they wish to better at the NHL level but have only refined themselves in the minors… yea… that’s dumb. Hope he fulfilles that… But dumb to put him at 8 until he’s actually done it.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

You sure he'll be allowed?

I feel like Darth Sidillivan will tell his Apprentice Dubas that he still wants vets so he can avoid the rebuild tag for his ego.