Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: Dull days of August... Oooo! A trade!

[Le Magnifique 66]

Who says our prospects don't matter for shit? Our prospect pool is perfectly fine for a team that has ignored prospects for years now. That is my point. There is a time to actually let some younger guys play and see what you have.

We are currently at that time, but they are basically all blocked now save for Jack St. Ivany.

He will be the only rookie on this team now, unless the unexpected happens...Sullivan actually gives a kid a shot.

So again, weaponizing salary cap space to add picks is a nice strategy. But we only did that for Hayes and now Glass. Why did we need to add Beauvillier and Lizotte? If this was the plan, then why bring in more veterans?

UNLESS, the guy calling the shots is the one who wants mediocre veterans.

While I agree, if those mediocre players can bounce back and have a decent season, they can also bring back a pick come TDL. I know it's a big if, but it's definitely possible. I still think we will move Eller before the season starts

 

[eXile3]

4 out of 5 of Florida’s top scorers were drafted in the top 6. That’s not even counting Ekbald, who hasn’t lived up to expectations but is still a good player.

No they didn’t draft them outside of Barkov, but they absolutely needed them to win.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Yager and another top 10 picks gives us a decent group to build around. Especially because you imagine the team is in for some rougher waters in a two to three years.

I was really impressed with his last year in the WHL and I think another year with a focus on gaining a few lbs will be good.

He is 6 feet and 170 lbs right now. If he can get to 190 I think he can be that top line guy and be perfectly fine. Small guys are still finding roles. Caufield with his shot for example.

If we can add one or two more guys of his caliber then we can surround them with the players needed.

Tanner Howe interests me as a mid 2nd as a guy who perhaps can compliment and surround a guy like Yager after some AHL seasoning as a young work horse.

4 out of 5 of Florida’s top scorers were drafted in the top 6. That’s not even counting Ekbald, who hasn’t lived up to expectations but is still a good player.

No they didn’t draft them outside of Barkov, but they absolutely needed them to win.

Again I do not think anyone is anti top 6 talent but the point is they were able to get them through trades and helped them reach full potential

 

[Gurglesons]

4 out of 5 of Florida’s top scorers were drafted in the top 6. That’s not even counting Ekbald, who hasn’t lived up to expectations but is still a good player.

No they didn’t draft them outside of Barkov, but they absolutely needed them to win.

Which is the point.

Championship teams over the last 5-6 years have been teams that make smart acquisitions versus drafting in the top five.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Vegas and Florida winning feels like the start of a potential new zeitgeist. Obviously Vegas is weird and not something others can emulate but Florida's winning core was pretty much grafted onto Barkov. NYR surging is another tick in the box for not having to build through the draft. I'm not sure they're few and far between any more.

I think a key, though, in this "new way" is a willingness to change what this organization believes a roster should look like. Both Florida and Vegas focused a]on a more heavy, physical style and b]didn't stick religiously with a "top six score, bottom six defend only" way of building the roster. Both are things the Pens still seem to refuse to do.

I also think there's an element of being able to attract/sign high end guys. I don't know if Pittsburgh's going to be the type of free agent destination where you can kickstart a rebuild on the fly by adding a top end FA like a Panarin or a Bobrovsky to the mix.

 

[SEALBound]

One thing that bugs me a bit when talking about how Florida didn't build their team through the draft - yeah, the team that won didn't have a ton of players they'd drafted on it, but it's worth noting that to get Tkachuk, they had to have players like Huberdeau and Weegar, whom they did draft in order to acquire him.

It's kind of like how the Pens wouldn't have been able to get Kunitz without having Whitney to trade for him.

You can't build a team solely through free agency, especially under a Salary Cap. And to be able to make trades, you have to have something the other teams want in return - and the best players aren't usually available solely for draft picks.

Whitney was available because they already had a recent top 4 and they had given Gogo and Letang legitimate time when they were 21 and 23. MT was willing to play them. We don't have both a Gogo AND a Letang at the moment. We have Pickering and that's about it. I don't think anyone else has that potential at the moment. But a key was willing to play your youth so that you are okay selling a guy like Whitney.

Looking at this year, it would be us giving the likes of Pickering, JSI, Shea, Gryz the playing time and watching them excel to make a guy like Graves or, more likely, Pettersson available. Unless we are clearly in a playoff position, I 100% expect us to ship Pettersson out for a nice, meaty return. Likely a 1st+ with 50% retention and then a guy like Gryz or Aho or whoever, fills that gap as best we can. You also hope that Graves does better to help solidify the left side.

 

[eXile3]

Which is the point.

Championship teams over the last 5-6 years have been teams that make smart acquisitions versus drafting in the top five.

Right we just need to turn into a destination spot like NY or Florida.

 

[Gurglesons]

Right we just need to turn into a destination spot like NY or Florida.

The only player on Florida you can make that argument for is Tkachuk. Reinhart, Verhaeghe, etc were all shrewd acquisition.

Instead our GMs have been focused on getting "bottom six forwards" and "defensemen" and our media parrots the same narratives.

Colorado brings in tons of players.

I think a key, though, in this "new way" is a willingness to change what this organization believes a roster should look like. Both Florida and Vegas focused a]on a more heavy, physical style and b]didn't stick religiously with a "top six score, bottom six defend only" way of building the roster. Both are things the Pens still seem to refuse to do.

I also think there's an element of being able to attract/sign high end guys. I don't know if Pittsburgh's going to be the type of free agent destination where you can kickstart a rebuild on the fly by adding a top end FA like a Panarin or a Bobrovsky to the mix.

Exactly. 100%.

 

[eXile3]

The only player on Florida you can make that argument for is Tkachuk. Reinhart, Verhaeghe, etc were all shrewd acquisition.

Instead our GMs have been focused on getting "bottom six forwards" and "defensemen" and our media parrots the same narratives.

Colorado brings in tons of players.



Exactly. 100%.

I will concede that they were savvy moves and our FO has lacked that creativity.

Like I said, there’s more than one way to do it. There’s just one way in particular that has shown to have repeatable success. Of course you also have to get lucky or you get stuck with a Kakko type top pick.

 

[Gurglesons]

I will concede that they were savvy moves and our FO has lacked that creativity.

Like I said, there’s more than one way to do it. There’s just one way in particular that has shown to have repeatable success. Of course you also have to get lucky or you get stuck with a Kakko type top pick.

Not sure I agree with this. There was a brief time in history that you saw that particular way work, but prior to the lockout most of the cup champions were built around big budgets not draft picks.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

One thing that bugs me a bit when talking about how Florida didn't build their team through the draft - yeah, the team that won didn't have a ton of players they'd drafted on it, but it's worth noting that to get Tkachuk, they had to have players like Huberdeau and Weegar, whom they did draft in order to acquire him.

It's kind of like how the Pens wouldn't have been able to get Kunitz without having Whitney to trade for him.

You can't build a team solely through free agency, especially under a Salary Cap. And to be able to make trades, you have to have something the other teams want in return - and the best players aren't usually available solely for draft picks.

Well stated.

"Ammo" to acquire players comes in many forms: picks, current roster players, and cap space
The more you have of the above, the easier it is to stomach and weather some overpayments.

For the past 15 years or so, the Pens only had current roster players to bargain with. When your current roster players start sucking or aging, your available ammo is reduced.

 

[Gurglesons]

Well stated.

"Ammo" to acquire players comes in many forms: picks, current roster players, and cap space
The more you have of the above, the easier it is to stomach and weather some overpayments.

For the past 15 years or so, the Pens only had current roster players to bargain with. When your current roster players start sucking or aging, your available ammo is reduced.

Penguins had tons of picks.

It's funny how many people act like Dubas had nothing when he came here.

He had a full amount of picks outside of lower ones. He had 20+ mil in cap space.

He chose to eat it up with EK65, Jarry, and Graves.

 

[SEALBound]

I will concede that they were savvy moves and our FO has lacked that creativity.

Like I said, there’s more than one way to do it. There’s just one way in particular that has shown to have repeatable success. Of course you also have to get lucky or you get stuck with a Kakko type top pick.

The adage that the draft is a crap shoot rings so true. You have to be lucky no matter where you are drafting, even if it's 1OV. You have to suck at the right time.

2001-2005 1OV: Kovalchuk, Nash, Fleury, Ovechkin, Crosby.
2010-2012: Hall, RNH, Yakupov

If you're in the gutter for a long time and want to get out, you have to hit the times when there are major, generational talents available. Hell, we could have had: Eric Staal, Evgeni Malkin, Sidney Crosby, Toews/Backstrom or Horton, Barker, Ryan, and Erik Johnson. One would have been a mega dynasty and the other a perennial lottery team. We got closer to the former thankfully.

 

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[eXile3]

Not sure I agree with this. There was a brief time in history that you saw that particular way work, but prior to the lockout most of the cup champions were built around big budgets not draft picks.

Right but that was two decades ago at this point. Since then the majority of cup winners had at least one top pick playing an important role in their success.

Could Vegas have one without Eichel? He lead them in points in the playoffs and regular season.

Tampa without Stamkos, they basically did with one, but definitely not without Hedmen.

Colorado was stacked with top picks. Chicago and ourselves won 6 with top picks being the core. Really post lockout this has been the model for success.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I will concede that they were savvy moves and our FO has lacked that creativity.

Like I said, there’s more than one way to do it. There’s just one way in particular that has shown to have repeatable success. Of course you also have to get lucky or you get stuck with a Kakko type top pick.

If you (and others) want to bottom out, then you should be campaigning like crazy for a Crosby trade, followed by a Letang trade, a Karlsson trade, etc. etc.

You have to play the hand you're dealt with, and I think everybody here would agree (and conclude) that we have been dealt the mother of all hands for the last two decades!

Chicago could not, and did not, bottom out until Toews and Kane were gone. They doubled down on those moves by not even qualifying Strome and trading DeBrincat. I don't think they got nearly enough for either Kane or DeBrincat, and lost the other two for nothing. THAT is how you bottom out.

People here want this team to bottom out, but we cannot as presently constructed. If you want the team to PLAN to bottom out, then fine.

But I still watch the games, and if their plan is to bottom out I cannot. Sorry, I am too old to watch the Chicago White Sox of hockey. And we live in a world where we have way too many options as a substitute.

Therefore, let's try to make the postseason, get in the tournament and see what happens. Once some of these mediocre players that we acquired this off-season prove that they are, you guessed it, mediocre, maybe we can wake up, smell the coffee and realize that we got better late last season when we got younger.

Hopefully, that realization won't be too late like it was last season.

 

[Gurglesons]

Right but that was two decades ago at this point. Since then the majority of cup winners had at least one top pick playing an important role in their success.

Could Vegas have one without Eichel? He lead them in points in the playoffs and regular season.

Tampa without Stamkos, they basically did with one, but definitely not without Hedmen.

Colorado was stacked with top picks. Chicago and ourselves won 6 with top picks being the core. Really post lockout this has been the model for success.

Vegas didn't draft Eichel.

Colorado hit on lower top five and ten picks like Makar and Rantanen.

Also, once again. Not saying top picks are unnecessary, but the teams that have had success were attempting to be competitive when they took players like Maker and Tampa was attempting to be competitive when they got Kucherov and Point who were essential to their cup wins.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

re: Florida.

I can't get over the fact that Vancouver gave away Gustav Forsling and then the Blackhawks gave him away and then Carolina waived him.

We're only like five cases of players panning out exactly like that from being competitive.

It could happen, guys.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Like who the f*** believes anything Madden says - I would love to believe Letang wants out and to go to Montreal, I think for all parties concerned that's the best outcome for the Penguins, Habs, and Letang to be honest.

Habs have a young group and Letang being in a leadership role there for that young D corps would be great for them, Penguins move a contract and add more cap space to be a broker for more picks and cap space to barter for picks, etc. I wouldn't blame Letang, the Penguins are probably as much of a contender as the Habs are, except with 0% of that future with prospects they have, so why not go back home and play for your childhood team?

Vegas didn't draft Eichel.

Colorado hit on lower top five and ten picks like Makar and Rantanen.

Also, once again. Not saying top picks are unnecessary, but the teams that have had success were attempting to be competitive when they took players like Maker and Tampa was attempting to be competitive when they got Kucherov and Point who were essential to their cup wins.

Carolina had the opportunity to draft Rantanen and decided to pass because he wasn't a "cultural fit" according to some rumblings by some Canes blogs that felt Noah Hanifin would be a better choice.

Lol.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Carolina had the opportunity to draft Rantanen and decided to pass because he wasn't a "cultural fit" according to some rumblings by some Canes blogs that felt Noah Hanifin would be a better choice.

Lol.

wtf. Never heard that one before.

Is Rantanen Nichushkin's plug?

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Penguins had tons of picks.

It's funny how many people act like Dubas had nothing when he came here.

He had a full amount of picks outside of lower ones. He had 20+ mil in cap space.

He chose to eat it up with EK65, Jarry, and Graves.

I love how you ignore how easy it would have been for any GM to get rid of Granlund and Petry.

Jarry I still don't mind, there wasn't a better option out there and Korpisalo had an even worse season!.

Graves I 110% agree with you, a terrible terrible contract given to him and we will be stuck with him for a long time!

 

[Honour Over Glory]

wtf. Never heard that one before.

Is Rantanen Nichushkin's plug?

It was some dumb blog (which I guess was reputable for Canes circles judging by the reaction by most Canes fans here) I read and then Canes fans literally came in and started to talk about how culturally Rantanen wouldn't have fit because it's not the right "cultural" spot for someone like Rantanen because he's European. Like what the f*** is Mikko supposed to be into? The bible and Nascar to play in f***ing Carolina?

Also, the f***ton of FIn's and Euro's that play(ed) in Carolina since is comical.

 

[Gurglesons]

I love how you ignore how easy it would have been for any GM to get rid of Granlund and Petry.

Jarry I still don't mind, there wasn't a better option out there and Korpisalo had an even worse season!.

Graves I 110% agree with you, a terrible terrible contract given to him and we will be stuck with him for a long time!

We paid a 1st to take on more cap in EK for Granlund and a 2nd to get rid of Petry while retaining.

Any GM could have made those moves.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

It was some dumb blog (which I guess was reputable for Canes circles judging by the reaction by most Canes fans here) I read and then Canes fans literally came in and started to talk about how culturally Rantanen wouldn't have fit because it's not the right "cultural" spot for someone like Rantanen because he's European. Like what the f*** is Mikko supposed to be into? The bible and Nascar to play in f***ing Carolina?

Also, the f***ton of FIn's and Euro's that play(ed) in Carolina since is comical.

That's f***ing stupid. And yeah, without looking I'd guess their roster has one of the highest ratios of Europeans in the league.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

re: Florida.

I can't get over the fact that Vancouver gave away Gustav Forsling and then the Blackhawks gave him away and then Carolina waived him.

We're only like five cases of players panning out exactly like that from being competitive.

It could happen, guys.

I think the key takeaway here is development. I like how Maurice talks about the changes they made to Rodrigues' game, that E-Rod kept trying to do too much and no one reigned him in, so they told him to just focus on certain aspects of his game that he thrives in and the rest will come and so he did and while he put up similar points to the Pens and Avs, his game was far better overall each game. He wasn't taking dumb penalties and disappearing as often, he was far more visible.

It's where I think Sullivan entirely lacks as a coach, he doesn't like to apparently "scout" players from how they were used before, fine, but then he ignores the strengths and uses them how he thinks they should play and fit and it's one of the more glaring issues with his usage of players, he has no idea how to play to their strengths at all.

But for Forsling, Benning dumped him for Adam Clendening, an 8-9tth defenseman at best in his career. Forsling was developing fine in Linkoping after his draft year, to dump him for some depth plug is like peak Sullivan type of move, but then the Hawks being the Shithawks, didn't really know how to develop any defensemen since. But Forsling playing in Charlotte probably helped him more, playing in the AHL for a full season and getting those minutes in the N.A game not in a pressure cooker like the NHL when you aren't ready, especially Defensemen that notoriously take longer to develop or need more development - Warsofsky (one of the blokes I really wanted as a Pens assistant, same for Carle), did a great job with him there.

You know David Warsofsky, the one that helped Karlsson in San Jose, but David Quinn apparently is getting the credit.

David Quinn - the King Maker, getting credit for Erik Karlsson and I guess Adam Fox, LMAO


Meanwhile Warsofsky was working wonders with the likes of Bean, Forsling, and then helping Karlsson, yet.....Quinn. LOL

We paid a 1st to take on more cap in EK for Granlund and a 2nd to get rid of Petry while retaining.

Any GM could have made those moves.

Any GM probably could have made those moves, maybe given up more, taken on less, etc. But each GM would have targeted a different return, we have the GM that went after Karlsson while keeping the dipshit coach that was tanking the team for years and expecting someone like Karlsson to help fix a problem that can't be fixed via any addition of talent or otherwise.