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Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: Dull days of August... Oooo! A trade!

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Empoleon8771 said:
I think he's more of a fit on a 3rd line sure, but a 4th line with how Sullivan uses his 4th lines is a gross misplacement of him.

He's a top-9 LW that is ideally on your 3rd line.
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The whole point is it would be pretty optimal/good if we had a strong enough F group to play OC on L4. Means we could be getting top 9 play from other dudes and can use him to strengthen what has been a black hole for this team in prior years. He can PK too so non-issue in terms of special teams needs.

Sully just gives them a lot of dzone starts. Which doesn’t really matter. The lack of offense and heavy in zone defense is because we’ve used players that completely suck the past few years. Idk why we can’t play good players on L4.
 
Empoleon8771 said:
Putting O'Connor on L4 with how Sullivan uses his L4 is a complete waste of him.
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Nah. O'Connor is exactly the type of player we should be using on L4.

If we are going to completely destroy L4 with zone starts. Get fast players who can exit the puck out in the bottom six.

Same reason I want Rust on L3.

The top six can't carry this team. I'd rather have a player like Glass or Beauvillier up there then expecting them to somehow work in that way in a bottom six role. That's what has damned us the past few seasons.
 
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Gurglesons said:
Nah. O'Connor is exactly the type of player we should be using on L4.

If we are going to completely destroy L4 with zone starts. Get fast players who can exit the puck out in the bottom six.
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They already have that in Lizotte and Beauvillier. Using O'Connor in that kind of spot is pretty much entirely wasting his offensive abilities.

CheckingLineCenter said:
The whole point is it would be pretty optimal/good if we had a strong enough F group to play OC on L4. Means we could be getting top 9 play from other dudes and can use him to strengthen what has been a black hole for this team in prior years. He can PK too so non-issue in terms of special teams needs.

Sully just gives them a lot of dzone starts. Which doesn’t really matter. The lack of offense and heavy in zone defense is because we’ve used players that completely suck the past few years. Idk why we can’t play good players on L4.
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I don't think that is reasonable expectations of depth, though. What teams out there have the kind of depth to put an O'Connor caliber of guy on L4? It's not a luxury that pretty much any NHL team has. Florida's 4th line last year when they won the cup was Lomberg-Stenlund-Okposo.

This has been a discussion that has been beaten to death over years and years, but this place has really unrealistic expectations of what "good depth" looks like in the NHL. O'Connor is a very good 3rd liner that can give you 20-20 in a top-6 role if you'd play him there. Thinking that kind of guy on a 4th line is just "optimal/good" forward depth is just not in line with what depth NHL teams have.

This is something that I know @BlindWillyMcHurt and I have discussed a ton of times, Penguins fans have absolutely broken expectations for bottom-6 players because of 2 players: Jordan Staal and Phil Kessel.
 
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DOC is a 20-20 guy if you play him exclusively with Crosby.

I highly doubt we see DOC score 20 goals with Kevin Hayes.

Also, Beauvillier on the 4th line is exactly the point. That is a terrible place to play him.
 
Gurglesons said:
DOC is a 20-20 guy if you play him exclusively with Crosby.

I highly doubt we see DOC score 20 goals with Kevin Hayes.

Also, Beauvillier on the 4th line is exactly the point. That is a terrible place to play him.
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If you exclusively play O'Connor with Crosby over a full season, he's producing more than that. He had 7 goals and 12 points in 19 games to finish last year when he was playing exclusively with Crosby.

O'Connor is a 20-20 player on any team's 2nd line if you use him in that role over a full season. O'Connor is a Ross Colton caliber player IMO.
 
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Empoleon8771 said:
They already have that in Lizotte and Beauvillier. Using O'Connor in that kind of spot is pretty much entirely wasting his offensive abilities.



I don't think that is reasonable expectations of depth, though. What teams out there have the kind of depth to put an O'Connor caliber of guy on L4? It's not a luxury that pretty much any NHL team has. Florida's 4th line last year when they won the cup was Lomberg-Stenlund-Okposo.

This has been a discussion that has been beaten to death over years and years, but this place has really unrealistic expectations of what "good depth" looks like in the NHL.
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OC’s ability is being overstated. big picture he got 16-17-33 while pushing close to 16 min a night with a pretty high PDO. I think his skillset fits the bottom 6 more than it does flanking Crosby.

idk how much different Beauvillier-Sid is than OC-Sid, but I do think OC vs. Beauvillier in the bottom 6 is a material delta.
 
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CheckingLineCenter said:
OC’s ability is being overstated. big picture he got 16-17-33 while pushing close to 16 min a night with a pretty high PDO. I think his skillset fits the bottom 6 more than it does flanking Crosby.

idk how much different Beauvillier-Sid is than OC-Sid, but I do think OC vs. Beauvillier in the bottom 6 is a material delta.
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I agree with this, I'm more making the point about 3rd line vs 4th line here. I think O'Connor should be on the 3rd line.

I was actually typing up something about Beauvillier with Crosby, in that I think that is actually an acceptable way to redistribute depth and improve your bottom-6. Assuming they're getting good Rust, I don't really have any major concerns with Beauvillier-Crosby-Rust. I wouldn't expect any sort of major resurgence like Drouin had with MacKinnon last year, but I think that line is fine.

However, I think there really is a limit for how much you can artificially improve your depth with those kind of moves, simply because the core isn't what it once was. I don't think you can skimp out on Malkin's linemates like you can with Crosby's linemates, and even with Crosby, I'd be uncomfortable going anything further than Beauvillier-Crosby-Rakell or Beauvillier-Crosby-Rust. I also think Eller's age brings up question marks about the 3rd line too.
 
CheckingLineCenter said:
OC’s ability is being overstated. big picture he got 16-17-33 while pushing close to 16 min a night with a pretty high PDO. I think his skillset fits the bottom 6 more than it does flanking Crosby.

idk how much different Beauvillier-Sid is than OC-Sid, but I do think OC vs. Beauvillier in the bottom 6 is a material delta.
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Same. And I just trust Beauvillier to vibe better with Sid.

I think we are really overrating what DOC will do based on a 20-25 game sample where Sid was on an absolute heater.
 
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Empoleon8771 said:
If you exclusively play O'Connor with Crosby over a full season, he's producing more than that. He had 7 goals and 12 points in 19 games to finish last year when he was playing exclusively with Crosby.

O'Connor is a 20-20 player on any team's 2nd line if you use him in that role over a full season. O'Connor is a Ross Colton caliber player IMO.
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I think you're overrating O'Connor's upside, Emp. Even in that "hot stretch" stapled to Crosby's line, he still produced at less than a 50 point pace.

On any team's 2nd line, he's likely more what he scored last year - 15-ish goals and 35-ish points. In fact, it wouldn't shock me to see him return to those totals this year even if he sticks with Crosby the entire year.
 
I'm interested to see how Sullivan does the lines because he's not a guy who seems to love line juggling, yet there's no obvious fit at LW on that top line. Any of Beauvillier, McGroarty, and DOC could conceivably fit there. Puustinen too.

There's no Guentzel player to staple to Sid forever so Sully might have to actually experiment with that line a bit and see what fits.

I'm sure Rust will be stapled to Sid's RW though even though Sid plays well with Rakell too. He seems to prefer Rust and Sullivan seems to prefer Rust there also.
 
Sidney the Kidney said:
I think you're overrating O'Connor's upside, Emp. Even in that "hot stretch" stapled to Crosby's line, he still produced at less than a 50 point pace.

On any team's 2nd line, he's likely more what he scored last year - 15-ish goals and 35-ish points. In fact, it wouldn't shock me to see him return to those totals this year even if he sticks with Crosby the entire year.
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40-50 points mainly from EV is really good though. Just 40 points would put him in the top 100 EV points in the league.
 
I feel like all of this talk about DOC being on the 3rd or 4th line ignores one thing - who do you play with Sid if not DOC?

I mean, I'll reserve legit judgement for camp but unless McGroarty comes in and steals the job, it's DOC's to lose.
 
SEALBound said:
I feel like all of this talk about DOC being on the 3rd or 4th line ignores one thing - who do you play with Sid if not DOC?

I mean, I'll reserve legit judgement for camp but unless McGroarty comes in and steals the job, it's DOC's to lose.
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I think I'm being a bit aggressive with even assuming McGroarty earns a spot out of camp, not from the "will Sullivan give him a chance?" thought but a "is he actually going to be good enough?" thought.

If McGroarty isn't ready out of camp, you're probably going to be running with something like:

Beauvillier/O'Connor-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
O'Connor/Beauvillier-Eller-Puustinen
Lizotte-Hayes-Acciari
 
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Empoleon8771 said:
I think I'm being a bit aggressive with even assuming McGroarty earns a spot out of camp, not from the "will Sullivan give him a chance?" thought but a "is he actually going to be good enough?" thought.

If McGroarty isn't ready out of camp, you're probably going to be running with something like:

Beauvillier/O'Connor-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
O'Connor/Beauvillier-Eller-Puustinen
Lizotte-Hayes-Acciari
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This is pretty much what I expect with Glass likely beating out Puusty if Sullivan can help it and maybe Hayes and Eller switched….Sullivan is not known for lineup creativity lol
 
Andy99 said:
Seems like overstating the case…I really doubt he’s going to have a lot of interest except maybe in MTL since he’s from the area…

www.pensburgh.com

Sam Poulin headlines an interesting waiver situation brewing in Pittsburgh

How the Penguins handle training camp cuts will be noticed around the NHL
www.pensburgh.com www.pensburgh.com
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He’s an intriguing skill set in a league trying to get heavier.

It’s kind of insanity we wasted a 1st round pick on a player who we gave less then 10 games to.
 
Lots of predictions about our LW situation. Let's just see how camp plays out.

Beauvillier has a history of decent production but you can't ignore/minimize that 3 teams have given up on him in a year. I wouldn't exactly chisel him in stone on the 1st line. DOC may not have an ideal scoring line skillset but neither did Dupes - a player DOC has a fair bit in common with - and Crosby loved him.

P.S. I'll also reiterate that Robertson would make a nice target.

Still think Glass makes the most sense in the minors unless he shows real promise in camp. Easy to stash.
 
I think Poulin probably just sucks shit. Would be nice for him to get a shot at like half a season to prove one way or another though. What's the downside? You miss out on having some stellar plug like Nieto, Acciari, Puljujarvi, etc., etc.?

f*** it. This team's already shit. Give the shitty younger guys a shot to make sure they are shitty.
 
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Big Friggin Dummy said:
I think Poulin probably just sucks shit. Would be nice for him to get a shot at like half a season to prove one way or another though. What's the downside? You miss out on having some stellar plug like Nieto, Acciari, Puljujarvi, etc., etc.?

f*** it. This team's already shit. Give the shitty younger guys a shot to make sure they are shitty.
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That’s the thing. Even if you are rebuilding a player like Poulin gets you potentially more value you back. You spent a 1st on him and you gave him 6 games.

Ty Smith all over again.
 
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Gurglesons said:
That’s the thing. Even if you are rebuilding a player like Poulin gets you potentially more value you back. You spent a 1st on him and you gave him 6 games.

Ty Smith all over again.
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Well Ty Smith also sucks shit. :laugh:

But yeah, at this point, what's there to lose? Team's cooked. See what you got. Either he's as bad as a lotta people think, or he has some kinda upside and ends up being serviceable bottom-6 guy for cheap.

The only thing I think this team really needs to do this season is move Petts some time between now and March. Fully expect more of this half-assed bullshit though, resulting in some dumb Petts contract extension.
 
Gurglesons said:
That’s the thing. Even if you are rebuilding a player like Poulin gets you potentially more value you back. You spent a 1st on him and you gave him 6 games.

Ty Smith all over again.
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I mean, between his injuries and mental health issues its not like there were long stretches where he showed he deserved a shot.
 
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