Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: Dull days of August... Oooo! A trade!

[Sorry]

Maybe Sid signs a 3.87AAV deal. 3 for the cups, and 87. Then the Pens sign Rantanen and Marner next offseason.

::puts the booze away::

 

[SEALBound]

Sid not signing because some company stopped making his favorite pen 20 years ago and Dubas frantically checking draws for one that works is more believable than any of the Canadian media noise.

That is a more believable scenario at the moment than "Sid wants out / Sid won't sign / Sid wants a trade"

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It didn’t matter if the fans filled the arena or not. Ownership in the 90s bartered away luxury boxes, TV and radio rights to keep ownership of the team. On top of that, the ownership group that financed him received the majority of the team’s revenue: the revenue stemming from tickets, parking, advertising, and concessions under the lease agreement. None of the revenue went to the team. However, in the playoffs, that agreement went out the window. That’s why it was a big deal when we advanced past the Devils in the first round in 1999 because it allowed us to get additional revenue from home playoff games in the next round.

Any team in the league would’ve struggled with that deal. Even the Leafs and Rangers. Attendance or lack thereof didn’t have much to do with why they went bankrupt and nearly had to move.

Obviously we don’t have that problem anymore. Now the lack of attendance could hurt FSG from making a profit but they have more money than God so I could not care less if they lose a little here and there if/when we truly suck.

Dipsey, there's your doodle.

Thank you @ThosePuckingPenguins

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Dipsey, there's your doodle.

Thank you @ThosePuckingPenguins

Yet the issues of a) the Pens actually having to turn a profit and b) the value of Crosby's continuing presence in the org remain.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yet the issues of a) the Pens actually having to turn a profit and b) the value of Crosby's continuing presence in the org remain.

Penguins are in a spot where they are going to lose money for a couple of seasons when they rebuild anyway, so either they can wait or they can be more aggressive with it now and really Crosby is going to be stuck on this team with Sullivan f***ing things up with or without Rust, Rakell, Pettersson, etc, so it really doesn't matter.

At best, Sid gets some young talent to play with that might be more fun for him if they sell off some of these older players now vs later. Jake was never interested in staying, what's Sid going to do about that? Nothing. He can either stay or he can go knowing this is basically it with this team before they start getting young talent that are ready for bigger roles.

If worrying about losing this team because there's no Crosby is legitimate to you, then you have to know that its going to happen when he retires, if the Penguins can't afford to have a few down years in attendance before they get better again and gain those fans back for maybe a couple of years, then they don't deserve a team, simple as that. Because a lot of teams experience the same shit during a rebuild.

That is a more believable scenario at the moment than "Sid wants out / Sid won't sign / Sid wants a trade"

Little does anyone know, Jake Guentzel took all of them with him.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think if there was any legitimacy to the threat of Sid not wanting to re-sign, it'd be all we heard about all around the hockey world. Would be massive news the moment it was genuinely suggested he was unhappy or whatever. /shrug

 

[The Old Master]

That is a more believable scenario at the moment than "Sid wants out / Sid won't sign / Sid wants a trade"

Sid wants to skip training camp.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Sid wants to skip training camp.

He's gonna sit out until they provide him a contract worth signing, obviously. Might go back to finish college. We're really f***in up here.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Penguins are in a spot where they are going to lose money for a couple of seasons when they rebuild anyway, so either they can wait or they can be more aggressive with it now and really Crosby is going to be stuck on this team with Sullivan f***ing things up with or without Rust, Rakell, Pettersson, etc, so it really doesn't matter.

At best, Sid gets some young talent to play with that might be more fun for him if they sell off some of these older players now vs later. Jake was never interested in staying, what's Sid going to do about that? Nothing. He can either stay or he can go knowing this is basically it with this team before they start getting young talent that are ready for bigger roles.

If worrying about losing this team because there's no Crosby is legitimate to you, then you have to know that its going to happen when he retires, if the Penguins can't afford to have a few down years in attendance before they get better again and gain those fans back for maybe a couple of years, then they don't deserve a team, simple as that. Because a lot of teams experience the same shit during a rebuild.


Little does anyone know, Jake Guentzel took all of them with him.

Almost all organisations/businesses will try to maximise short term profit.

Later does not exist in this dojo

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Almost all organisations/businesses will try to maximise short term profit.

Later does not exist in this dojo

View attachment 905137

Most teams when it comes to the point where they need to rebuild/retool usually don't want it to be bad for more than 3-5yrs tops and usually they're aiming for 2-3yrs.

Having some lower attendance that first year is normal but it climbs back up when the fans start seeing the new blood on the team.

Let's use the Sharks as an example.

From this season to the year before they dropped 429 in attendance, 13559 from 13988. The funny part is the Sharks were dead last and still had more fans on average than the playoff bound Jets. But in any case....

2018-19 was the last year the Sharks were a playoff team.

Attendance:
2018-19: 17,266
2019-20: 16,428*
2020-21: Covid*
2021-22: 12,574 - Most teams had a big drop when attendance to games resumed, so league wide a lot of teams were down that year.
2022-23: 13,988
2023-24: 13,559

I'd wager their attendance pops back up closer to 15,000-17,000 because fans will be excited to see Smith and Celebrini. But in any case the Sharks had good attendance for the years they were playoff teams. Pens were non playoff teams the last two seasons and actually saw an up tick in attendance, small but still up. I think yeah it'd drop but not a ton. But if they do this as a slow burn the climb will be a slower burn so the Pens will be looking at drops steadily for 3-5 seasons unless Dubas makes moves to add picks and prospects to keep fans excited while also wrapping up the Crosby+Geno years.

*Pens had an increase from 2022-24 (gained a whole 93 more fans on average)*

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Anyways back to Hayes.

Him being a career center, his best year in the NHL came as he was moved to Left wing. He played C/RW with the Blues but it's why I feel Hayes would be better utilized as a left winger and keep Glass at C because for Glass, his breakthrough season was when he was playing C consistently.

At BC he was primarily a RW. He put up his best numbers in Philly before he was dealt, but he wasn't good defensively at C and was moved to wing after being a 3c for the Rags for a few years. So either they go RW with him or LW. I think RW is fine with Geno as Raks can play on his off wing quite well and has done that for years in Anaheim and even with Sid and Rust.

I still think Rutger should be starting on the 3rd line to ease in with Glass and Puustinen. Not sure where that leaves Doc. To be honest, I'm not really that high on him and think he and Beauvillier are basically interchangeable.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Penguins are in a spot where they are going to lose money for a couple of seasons when they rebuild anyway, so either they can wait or they can be more aggressive with it now and really Crosby is going to be stuck on this team with Sullivan f***ing things up with or without Rust, Rakell, Pettersson, etc, so it really doesn't matter.

At best, Sid gets some young talent to play with that might be more fun for him if they sell off some of these older players now vs later. Jake was never interested in staying, what's Sid going to do about that? Nothing. He can either stay or he can go knowing this is basically it with this team before they start getting young talent that are ready for bigger roles.

If worrying about losing this team because there's no Crosby is legitimate to you, then you have to know that its going to happen when he retires, if the Penguins can't afford to have a few down years in attendance before they get better again and gain those fans back for maybe a couple of years, then they don't deserve a team, simple as that. Because a lot of teams experience the same shit during a rebuild.


Little does anyone know, Jake Guentzel took all of them with him.

As long as Crosby is here, the Pens aren't going to bottom out. Even if you strip it all down, they're likely hovering around the top 10 spot.

The difference in drafting postion between #10 and a playoff spot isn't worth the potential lost playoff runs, lost playoff revenue, and compromised relationship with all-time legends by blowing it all up. And we saw what Dubas got in return for our best asset - he couldn't even manage a 1st for Guentzel, you think he's gonna do better than that with what's left? Or are a wad of 2nd rounders that enticing?

Besides, the Pens are aleady getting some young talent for Sid to play with without going scorched earth. That's what the McG trade was all about.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Anyways back to Hayes.

Him being a career center, his best year in the NHL came as he was moved to Left wing. He played C/RW with the Blues but it's why I feel Hayes would be better utilized as a left winger and keep Glass at C because for Glass, his breakthrough season was when he was playing C consistently.

At BC he was primarily a RW. He put up his best numbers in Philly before he was dealt, but he wasn't good defensively at C and was moved to wing after being a 3c for the Rags for a few years. So either they go RW with him or LW. I think RW is fine with Geno as Raks can play on his off wing quite well and has done that for years in Anaheim and even with Sid and Rust.

I still think Rutger should be starting on the 3rd line to ease in with Glass and Puustinen. Not sure where that leaves Doc. To be honest, I'm not really that high on him and think he and Beauvillier are basically interchangeable.

If there is any coach I trust to put players in the right positions, it's Sully.

 

[pistolpete11]

As long as Crosby is here, the Pens aren't going to bottom out. Even if you strip it all down, they're likely hovering around the top 10 spot.

The difference in drafting postion between #10 and a playoff spot isn't worth the potential lost playoff runs, lost playoff revenue, and compromised relationship with all-time legends by blowing it all up. And we saw what Dubas got in return for our best asset - he couldn't even manage a 1st for Guentzel, you think he's gonna do better than that with what's left? Or are a wad of 2nd rounders that enticing?

Besudes, the Pens are aleady getting some young talent for Sid to play with without going scorched earth. That's what the McG trade was all about.

I'll be pretty pissed if Dubas never trades Rust, Rakell, Karlsson, Pettersson etc., but I don't get the rush to do it now. Give Sid and Geno a fighting chance to get back to the playoffs and then trade those guys when the time comes. It's not like they are going to get a significantly bigger haul now vs. a year or 2 from now. It will all come out more or less the same in the end, but they can give the casual fans something to cheer for, keep Sid and Geno happy enough, and they will still end up bottoming out when they retire.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'll be pretty pissed if Dubas never trades Rust, Rakell, Karlsson, Pettersson etc., but I don't get the rush to do it now. Give Sid and Geno a fighting chance to get back to the playoffs and then trade those guys when the time comes. It's not like they are going to get a significantly bigger haul now vs. a year or 2 from now. It will all come out more or less the same in the end, but they can give the casual fans something to cheer for, keep Sid and Geno happy enough, and they will still end up bottoming out when they retire.

Exactly

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I'll be pretty pissed if Dubas never trades Rust, Rakell, Karlsson, Pettersson etc., but I don't get the rush to do it now. Give Sid and Geno a fighting chance to get back to the playoffs and then trade those guys when the time comes. It's not like they are going to get a significantly bigger haul now vs. a year or 2 from now. It will all come out more or less the same in the end, but they can give the casual fans something to cheer for, keep Sid and Geno happy enough, and they will still end up bottoming out when they retire.

But it won't. Like everyone else on this board, you're not factoring in the money they leave behind when they're gone. The return is only a piece of the pie.
Every year that you keep a Rust or Rakell on the roster, when the window's already closed, is 5 mil you could have used for the farm system set ablaze.

Sacrificing 2.5M for Glass netted Dubas a 3rd and 6th.
Think about what happens when a 20M+ contract comes off the books. What can you do with that?

Furthermore, every year that you keep quality players who earn you more standings points, leads to lower drafting. This at a time when farm replenishment should 100% be their #1 priority.

Well, they chose the sentimental indulgence path. That always comes at a cost in this league.
I totally understand that fans don't give a crap about the future, and that's fine. But let's not pretend that what they're doing right now is somehow smart management.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

But it won't. Like everyone else on this board, you're not factoring in the money they leave behind when they're gone. The return is only a piece of the pie.
Every year that you keep a Rust or Rakell on the roster, when the window's already closed, is 5 mil you could have used for the farm system set ablaze.

Sacrificing 2.5M for Glass netted Dubas a 3rd and 6th.
Think about what happens when a 20M+ contract comes off the books. What can you do with that?

Furthermore, every year that you keep quality players who earn you more standings points, leads to lower drafting. This at a time when farm replenishment should 100% be their #1 priority.

Well, they chose the sentimental indulgence path. That always comes at a cost in this league.
I totally understand that fans don't give a crap about the future, and that's fine. But let's not pretend that what they're doing right now is somehow smart management.

Executives have a number of considerations. Their aperture can't be as narrow as some fans' "sell everything now, who cares about silly things like revenue and relationships with generational players".

Again, are 2nd round picks and moving up a few draft spots worth burning everything to the ground? The Ducks have been getting top 10 picks for half a decade and still look like ass.

Pens will have plenty of time to suck organically after Crosby retires.

 

[Sideline]

Executives have a number of considerations. Their aperture can't be as narrow as some fans' "sell everything now, who cares about silly things like revenue and relationships with generational players".

Again, are 2nd round picks and moving up a few draft spots worth burning everything to the ground? The Ducks have been getting top 10 picks for half a decade and still look like ass.

Pens will have plenty of time to suck organically after Crosby retires.

Yup. FSG is also thinking about 20 or 30 years from now being able to rely on the annual "Crosby Night" game to get a bunch of us to take our grandkids to a game.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Yup. FSG is also thinking about 20 or 30 years from now being able to rely on the annual "Crosby Night" game to get a bunch of us to take our grandkids to a game.

I mean, they're also thinking about now because an arena with Crosby is a lot fuller than an arena without him.

Crosby is also a better 1C through age 40 than the Pens will likely have for the next 10+ years afterward, so completely throwing in the towel seems pretty goofy.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

LOLOL potential playoff runs?

I love you Doodle but man... pass me some of whatever you got.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

LOLOL potential playoff runs?

I love you Doodle but man... pass me some of whatever you got.

Stranger things have happened

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Stranger things have happened

There is no doubt that we live in interesting times, CW. But seemingly not in a FUN way.

Anyhow... agree with your general premise. The people acting like Crosby leaving for the sake of some bunk ass draft pick is a good thing are kinda weird to me TBH. Imagine being an aging but still perfectly fine family pet in these people's households eh? "You aren't fun like you used to be, Checkers. Wanna go for a car ride?"

 

[pistolpete11]

But it won't. Like everyone else on this board, you're not factoring in the money they leave behind when they're gone. The return is only a piece of the pie.
Every year that you keep a Rust or Rakell on the roster, when the window's already closed, is 5 mil you could have used for the farm system set ablaze.

Sacrificing 2.5M for Glass netted Dubas a 3rd and 6th.
Think about what happens when a 20M+ contract comes off the books. What can you do with that?

Furthermore, every year that you keep quality players who earn you more standings points, leads to lower drafting. This at a time when farm replenishment should 100% be their #1 priority.

Well, they chose the sentimental indulgence path. That always comes at a cost in this league.
I totally understand that fans don't give a crap about the future, and that's fine. But let's not pretend that what they're doing right now is somehow smart management.

There really aren't that many guys that get dumped with picks every year. Next season, they will have (or should have) Petts, Gryz, Eller, and Beauvillier coming off the books. That's $10.5M. They could not qualify Glass. That's another $2.5M. If Hayes bounces back, he could be a trade candidate. That would $3.5M. Next offseason Bunting will only have a year left, so maybe they trade him. Another $4.5M. They don't need to go scorched earth to take on cap dumps.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Stranger things have happened

 

[Honour Over Glory]

If there is any coach I trust to put players in the right positions, it's Sully.

Most of the walnuts here do their dumb line up decisions with blokes on the wrong side, so he's infected even this place.