Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: Dull days of August... Oooo! A trade!

[Factorial]

Yet they ended up squeezing 3 Cups and a Final loss out of that path. How many Cups will this path generate over the next 20 years?

And they lucked into getting Geno and Sid. How often do those guys come along? Your premise seems to be based on the Pens drafting two "superstars" in two years. I wouldn't count on it.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

And they lucked into getting Geno and Sid. How often do those guys come along? Your premise seems to be based on the Pens drafting two "superstars" in two years. I wouldn't count on it.

Have to try. Load up on picks as much as possible. Rely on collective roster strength over individual.
Being Minnesota for 20 years is not the way back to the top of the mountain.

McCann and Tanev out for nothing, Matheson for a broken down Petry, Marino for a bag of pucks, and yeah the Granlund trade...f***ing woof.

Not to mention all the things he didn't do, but said he would. He said he wanted to replenish the farm while he's here. That was a complete garbage attempt.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

I would be fine with this, too. MORE than fine because it means no Mike Sullivan and that to me is a huge, huge part of the problem. But evidently the team was bought by a fan club. Not an ownership group.

As much as I love the Pens, I wouldn't be mad to see FSG lose a crap ton of money by missing the playoffs if they continue hitching their wagon to a shitty coach's star.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yet they ended up squeezing 3 Cups and a Final loss out of that path. How many Cups will this path generate over the next 20 years?

I’m a lot more concerned with this team not relocating than I am with them winning 3 cups in the next 20 years again.

 

[ThosePuckingPenguins]

I’m a lot more concerned with this team not relocating than I am with them winning 3 cups in the next 20 years again.

I don’t think this organization relocating should be much of a concern. The circumstances surrounding why they nearly moved aren’t in place now and won’t be for the foreseeable future.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

As much as I love the Pens, I wouldn't be mad to see FSG lose a crap ton of money by missing the playoffs if they continue hitching their wagon to a shitty coach's star.

Yeah but you know it's never going to be his fault. Maybe after the Olympics it can START to be partially his fault. Depending on results.

I’m a lot more concerned with this team not relocating than I am with them winning 3 cups in the next 20 years again.

I have to be honest... I agree that I'd rather have a wealthy but stupid ownership group than no team. But based on everything that has come out over the years I have to wonder how serious the relocation talk was to begin with. And at this point it would be truly shocking if they ever moved.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

Yeah but you know it's never going to be his fault. Maybe after the Olympics it can START to be partially his fault. Depending on results.

Oh yea, they will continue to rearrange the deck chairs while keeping the captain.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I have to be honest... I agree that I'd rather have a wealthy but stupid ownership group than no team. But based on everything that has come out over the years I have to wonder how serious the relocation talk was to begin with. And at this point it would be truly shocking if they ever moved.

That wasn't quite what I meant, I more meant that I don't blame the owners for not wanting to suck shit when the team almost relocated the last time they sucked shit.

Pittsburgh fans just simply do not have a track record of showing up to games when this team isn't good. I am not confident enough in Penguins fans showing up to watch an awful team for me to dismiss the concerns about possibly relocating.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

That wasn't quite what I meant, I more meant that I don't blame the owners for not wanting to suck shit when the team almost relocated the last time they sucked shit.

Pittsburgh fans just simply do not have a track record of showing up to games when this team isn't good. I am not confident enough in Penguins fans showing up to watch an awful team for me to dismiss the concerns about possibly relocating.

I mean... it's true that it's not a hockey town and you always have to be concerned about attendance in a gate-driven niche league. But ~12K on average when they were so utterly heinous that Dick Tarnstrom led the team and we were all pining for the days that Rico Fata really broke out ain't too terrible all things considered. And they almost certainly won't ever be THAT bad again. The league just isn't like that anymore and the Penguins aren't having to trade superstars for cash just to keep the lights on.

Not to mention the REAL battle was won already by getting them a new barn. My understanding is a huge part of the problem back then were non-existent revenue streams from a hopelessly outdated and never-meant-to-do-this building.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I think McGroarty with Geno makes more sense if his skating has him not being able to keep up with Sid & Rust. Which is fine, I think Bunting-Crosby-Rust, what Sullivan kept pushing for most of Bunting's time, still works which lets McGroarty-Malkin-Rakell maybe be a thing and still a good situation for all parties involved - as in it keeps DOC out of the top 6 like it should.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I’m a lot more concerned with this team not relocating than I am with them winning 3 cups in the next 20 years again.

I'm most concerned with them not getting 1. Wanna see steps taken to avoid that.
Admittedly relocation would hurt me a lot less, since I don't live anywhere close to Pittsburgh and can only attend games when they come here.
So I have some sympathy for natives from that perspective.

However, I would also say that that if this team maintains this fence-sitter mentality for the long-term, that will completely take the wind out of my sails with watching them. Would also hurt my enjoyment of the sport, since I can't get really invested in another team at this point.
If the choice was between becoming Minnesota east for 20 years, or new ownership trying desperately to get closer to Cups in their new home every season, I'd take relocation 10/10 times.

Nothing is more dispiriting for me than my favorite team stripped of ambition.

 

[Factorial]

that will completely take the wind out of my sails with watching them.

Some of us are lifers.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm most concerned with them not getting 1. Wanna see steps taken to avoid that.
Admittedly relocation would hurt me a lot less, since I don't live anywhere close to Pittsburgh and can only attend games when they come here.
So I have some sympathy for natives from that perspective.

However, I would also say that that if this team maintains this fence-sitter mentality for the long-term, that will completely take the wind out of my sails with watching them. Would also hurt my enjoyment of the sport, since I can't get really invested in another team at this point.
If the choice was between becoming Minnesota east for 20 years, or new ownership trying desperately to get closer to Cups in their new home every season, I'd take relocation 10/10 times.

Nothing is more dispiriting for me than my favorite team stripped of ambition.

Nice job admitting you're a bandwagon fan I guess

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm most concerned with them not getting 1. Wanna see steps taken to avoid that.
Admittedly relocation would hurt me a lot less, since I don't live anywhere close to Pittsburgh and can only attend games when they come here.
So I have some sympathy for natives from that perspective.

However, I would also say that that if this team maintains this fence-sitter mentality for the long-term, that will completely take the wind out of my sails with watching them. Would also hurt my enjoyment of the sport, since I can't get really invested in another team at this point.
If the choice was between becoming Minnesota east for 20 years, or new ownership trying desperately to get closer to Cups in their new home every season, I'd take relocation 10/10 times.

Nothing is more dispiriting for me than my favorite team stripped of ambition.

Most teams don’t win 5 cups in 30 years.

Get ready for misery. The Penguins run since 1990 is not normal.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Some of us are lifers.

I don't see them relocating this team at all. The only time they ever had that risk was because of an arena/casino licensing bs and the bankruptcy and fans being annoyed with the direction. This time the arena is fine, all the other shit is fine, the ownership has deep pockets and they can sell if they don't want to be in Hockey ownership anymore.

The only issue is how much longer will keeping the wrong blokes in management get the blind eye before they finally make the right changes.

 

[BusinessGoose]

I'm 65% bandwagon. I've never been to any games in Pittsburgh. I want my teams to do well. But i don't spend hours of a Saturday going up and down the list of prospects. Nor do i closely follow every team in the league.

I'll never not be a PIT team fan.... But it also doesn't define my life.

I'll admit the hell out of that, personally.

I don't see them relocating this team at all. The only time they ever had that risk was because of an arena/casino licensing bs and the bankruptcy and fans being annoyed with the direction. This time the arena is fine, all the other shit is fine, the ownership has deep pockets and they can sell if they don't want to be in Hockey ownership anymore.

The only issue is how much longer will keeping the wrong blokes in management get the blind eye before they finally make the right changes.

There's really no where to relocate anymore. The southwest and southeast are fails.

Utah has its team now. Winnipeg got it's team. Vegas got a team.

Where is there interest in another market?

 

[Gurglesons]

Penguins won’t relocate because we have another 30+ years on the lease right?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Most teams don’t win 5 cups in 30 years.

Get ready for misery. The Penguins run since 1990 is not normal.

Well we were lucky to see them win back to back from 1990-1992. Then from 1992-2008 was an absolute shit show but it turned around with the draft in succession Fleury, Malkin, Crosby, and Staal. To have 16yrs of turmoil from the team going bankrupt, selling off the other face of the franchise, then the original face of the franchise comes back and buys the team, almost moving (mostly a threat), young studs turning into what they were drafted for - franchise players, suprise run to the finals and then the first cup in 16-17yrs since the last. After that how long did the cup drought even go on for? another 6yrs until another back 2 back. Funny enough the current stretch is the longest this team has gone between cups in the Crosby era, Sullivan is just blowing through these records.

But to have the success the Penguins have had from 1990-2017 is something most fans wish they could have for their team, we're lucky, doesn't mean we can't be pissed about the shitty things going on now, but it does mean we at least had some good shit to feel good about.

Penguins won’t relocate because we have another 30+ years on the lease right?

In 2007 they had the $290m lease until 2040. I don't know if they renewed that, but yeah that sounds about right. So until 2040 this team is staying where it is unless something insane happens.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'm 65% bandwagon. I've never been to any games in Pittsburgh. I want my teams to do well. But i don't spend hours of a Saturday going up and down the list of prospects. Nor do i closely follow every team in the league.

I'll never not be a PIT team fan.... But it also doesn't define my life.

I'll admit the hell out of that, personally.


There's really no where to relocate anymore. The southwest and southeast are fails.

Utah has its team now. Winnipeg got it's team. Vegas got a team.

Where is there interest in another market?

The only other market I want to see a team in again is Atlanta. I think the first time around it wasn't in the right area and the second time around it was the same issue but also some of the worst ownership imaginable where they made it impossible for the people trying to make it better by throwing up roadblocks and what not. Also they kept Don Waddell for so long and he just kept hiring shit after shit for coaches, he lucked out with Bob Hartley and then basically fired him when he was the only coach that actually did anything for that team. John Anderson could have done better if he had some more help on that team, but given that he never really was a head coach again (outside of a rehire with the Wolves as HC for 3yrs) after the Thrashers tells me not many thought highly of him, he didn't even hold an NHL/AHL job after 2018 until just last year for the Wolves.

No offense to the Quebec blokes here, but I find the Province to be so insanely ass backwards with their language bullshit and how their media and politicians make it into some issue that it should never be, for that reason I just never want to see another team there ever again. Why the f*** should it matter if they're not able to speak french? When they decide to join the rest of the world in the 21st century, sure. I'd be fine seeing Houston and Atlanta getting teams and then no expansion for another 20yrs.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Nice job admitting you're a bandwagon fan I guess

"Bandwagon" implies there was a wagon you were in before Pittsburgh. That's why they're "jumpers". I never had another team though.
I've followed them for about as long as you've been alive.

 

[BusinessGoose]

The only other market I want to see a team in again is Atlanta. I think the first time around it wasn't in the right area and the second time around it was the same issue but also some of the worst ownership imaginable where they made it impossible for the people trying to make it better by throwing up roadblocks and what not. Also they kept Don Waddell for so long and he just kept hiring shit after shit for coaches, he lucked out with Bob Hartley and then basically fired him when he was the only coach that actually did anything for that team. John Anderson could have done better if he had some more help on that team, but given that he never really was a head coach again (outside of a rehire with the Wolves as HC for 3yrs) after the Thrashers tells me not many thought highly of him, he didn't even hold an NHL/AHL job after 2018 until just last year for the Wolves.

No offense to the Quebec blokes here, but I find the Province to be so insanely ass backwards with their language bullshit and how their media and politicians make it into some issue that it should never be, for that reason I just never want to see another team there ever again. Why the f*** should it matter if they're not able to speak french? When they decide to join the rest of the world in the 21st century, sure. I'd be fine seeing Houston and Atlanta getting teams and then no expansion for another 20yrs.

ATL 2.0 was fully sabotaged at nearly every turn. But it's for sure as far south and as far north as you might be able to have a team work in that corner.

Quebec will start to struggle after a few years just like wimnipeg is

Houston maybe. I dunno if the metro area will really sell it out.... Well, there's a LOT of people, so maybe

 

[Honour Over Glory]

ATL 2.0 was fully sabotaged at nearly every turn. But it's for sure as far south and as far north as you might be able to have a team work in that corner.

Quebec will start to struggle after a few years just like wimnipeg is

Houston maybe. I dunno if the metro area will really sell it out.... Well, there's a LOT of people, so maybe

Texas has been a growing hotbed for hockey for a while, I think that's a market the NHL has looked at for years and has kept an eye on. Atlanta's attendance wasn't even that bad when you look at how long Bettman protected the Coyotes, Oilers, etc while they struggled heavily. He essentially just let the Jets ownership buy the team and move them asap instead of even remotely giving them the same support he kept giving the Coyotes for like 20yrs. If he forced the Thrashers to be sold to an ownership that had to keep the team in Atlanta and move it to a better location, it'd still be in the league.


Edit: Jets are a good example and well an apt one since Atlanta lost their team so they can get theirs back, but the Jets have some of the worst attendance issues in the league, now that the Coyotes are gone, it's going become even more glaring.

The Atlanta Thrashers last 6 seasons were:
2005-06: 15550
2006-07: 16240 - The only year they made the playoffs.
2007-08: 15831
2008-09: 14626
2009-10: 13607
2010-11: 13469
And this was a team basically sabotaged, had idiots in management and ownership and the ones that actually cared within the Franchise were silenced and told to f*** off.

vs the Jets the last 6 seasons:
2018-19: 15276 - Playoffs - 4th in the Western Conference
2019-20: 15794 - Lost in Qualifying Round
2020-21 - Covid Season - 3rd in that absolutely pathetic Canadian Division, playoff team.
2021-22: 12716 - No playoffs - 11th in the Western Conference
2022-23: 14045 - Playoffs - 8th in the Western Conference
2023-24: 13490 - Playoffs - 2nd in the Western Conference

Jets haven't even been a bad team really, they've made the playoffs 7 times out of their last 10 seasons. Blokes might say yeah the city just sucks for sports, but when you look at that CFL thing they have in Canada, the Blue Bombers have averaged 20,000 in attendance since 1971. There's no excuse of "well the stadium is in a better spot" when they're bloody 12kms away from each other. So the Sports fans in Winnipeg would rather watch the CFL than the NHL, even when the Jets are good. The Jets are a great example of what the Penguins can look forward to, ownership with insanely deep pockets that doesn't really give a shit.

The Jackets also suck and finally fired the right blokes but then hired Donny Wads which is ass backwards and then pulled off an absolutely shitty deal for Laine, but their attendance is better than the Jets, lol. Even the Ducks who have been pretty awful for 6yrs. Coyotes were always the biggest joke for attendance and Bettman fought tooth and nail to protect them by forcing new owners to keep the team in Arizona.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

Where is there interest in another market?

Houston, mainly.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Most teams don’t win 5 cups in 30 years.

Get ready for misery. The Penguins run since 1990 is not normal.

Mindset. I want the hungry, championship-seeking mindset back. That's all I ask for from my team.

The year Tarnstrom was the leading scorer was not when I was miserable. I understood the direction at that point, and supported it.
These last few years of pretending have been much harder to take mentally, because they're willingly limiting the team's progress towards the ultimate goal.
What's even worse is that they're planning for a few MORE years of that, and even the fanbase desires it. It's all very sad for me to witness.
I thought FSG would bring it back, but they lied.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I'm most concerned with them not getting 1. Wanna see steps taken to avoid that.
Admittedly relocation would hurt me a lot less, since I don't live anywhere close to Pittsburgh and can only attend games when they come here.
So I have some sympathy for natives from that perspective.

However, I would also say that that if this team maintains this fence-sitter mentality for the long-term, that will completely take the wind out of my sails with watching them. Would also hurt my enjoyment of the sport, since I can't get really invested in another team at this point.
If the choice was between becoming Minnesota east for 20 years, or new ownership trying desperately to get closer to Cups in their new home every season, I'd take relocation 10/10 times.

Nothing is more dispiriting for me than my favorite team stripped of ambition.

Minnesota has one season below .500 point percentage in the last 21 years. The Penguins are not at risk of becoming the Wild. As soon as Crosby leaves the team will reach the bottom of the league