Salary Cap: Pens Salary Thread: Pens Ownership "Dubas... that Coca-Cola machine. I want you to shoot the lock off it. There may be some waiver players in there."

[eXile3]

I see Wyatt Johnston is turning into a stud. Why didn’t we grab someone from the Dallas organization instead of rushing to hire Dufus?

 

[HandshakeLine]

Related note, Dubas is never going to hire an actual GM why did people buy that absurd lie?

 

[The Old Master]

Well we just need to *evaluate* before making any decisions.

I'd say we should give it until the TDL in 2025 before considering any changes. I believe in this group and you just need to trust the process.

- Sullivan is a great coach and can coach forever.
- Geno is still a 2C that can carry IIHL callups to L2 NHL production
- Ryan Graves is an NHLer
- Tristan Jarry is worth a lifetime contract
- DOC is a top 6 NHL forward
- You can't spend a better 15M than Rakell/Smith/Rust in this league

Trust the process. Just keep waiting because eventually something will happen. Don't worry what that 'something' might be. This is a good hockey team that just had some bad bounces over the last 2000 days.

a lot of those could be true, but we won't know till they go play for another team.

 

[SEALBound]

I would think Dubas focuses on the cap-compliance (and any other NHL compliance) issues while Sully focuses on what helps him win. So yeah...if Sully is not allowed to play players because of NHL rules, then that is on Sully, and yes, I do remember that happening a bunch of times.


I was responding to the OP...
You blame Dubas for the team not playing youth?

I can agree that we can blame Dubas for: Acciari, Nieto, Smith

Though he had to undo a lot of crap that Hextall did. I'll be honest, that EK trade holds a lot of weight in my eyes. That was pure magic getting rid of all that crap, and salary and get EK instead.

I think Sully is the bigger problem here by far.

To both of you...
It's reasonable to say that Dubas didn't make the job easy on Sully and provide him with a "no brainer" quality level of players for the bottom 6.

However, I feel Sully could have done more with what he had available. He just expects youth to be 100% ready to go, and unless you're Crosby/Malkin, it doesn't seem to work like that.

Yeah, cap compliance was tough throughout the year but that's why you didn't sign a guy like Acciari. If you must, go seek out any of the $900k 4Cs available. Or you just, ya know, waive and reassign Harkins and bring up any of the aforementioned guys.

Dubas has been a mixed bag all season. There are some good things and clearly some bad.

On most of the bad, I can least understand the decision at the time of the decision.
Acciari - I get the signing at the time but it clearly did not work out. So I'm neutral to an extent. Where it gets negative is Dubas doing nothing to move him. He could have and should have been gone at the TDL for even future considerations.
Smith - I thought this was still a good trade. Didn't work out super well but overall, it was a solid trade. We basically traded Bleuger for Smith and I'm okay with it. I would support a move like this every time. Sometimes they work out and sometimes they don't. It's a third.
Nieto - This one I wasn't high on because I think you could have used the guys like Hino, Big Z, Poulin, White, Nylander, etc instead. What baffles me more is that, Nieto showed nothing extra beyond any of the guys I mentioned...and yet he seems waiver-proof. If I saw Nieto as a guy being up and down along side the likes of Hino, Z, and White, I wouldn't have an issue. But seeing him viewed as a staple in the lineup has me grinding my teeth. Especially now that we have Puljujarvi and Bemstrom with Poulin and Gruden also looking capable. There's just no need for Nieto. Again, another guy that needs to be gone.
EK - Homerun still in my mind. Sending out the copious amounts of trash that Hextall acquired took a lot of doing. Thank god.
Jarry - Didn't like the signing at the time but I still understand why it was done. The goalie market was abysmal and Neds hadn't proved himself obviously. Still, too much for too long but I think given the abysmal goalie market, Jarry is a very tradeable asset to a team looking for legit goaltending. I don't like it but...Dubas was in a positon where he practically had to keep his starter.
Graves - hasn't worked out but I at least understand the signing. They needed a Dumo replacement, we had nothing in house, Graves was willing to sign. Graves mediocre play isn't totally on Dubas. I would put the fault at 60% Graves, 35% Sullivan, 5% Dubas.
Neds - Homerun. Dude has been outstanding.

Obviously, in this coming off-season, Dubas needs to do more major surgery. I expect one of Smith or Rakell to go out. I expect someone currently signed in the bottom 6 to go out - Nieto, Acciari, or Bemstrom. I expect there to be a trade that brings in a younger, impact piece. I'm willing to get we see a major roster player moved (Jarry, Graves, Pettersson, Smith, Rakell, Eller). I also expect them to give more looks to these younger kids - Pono, Puljujarvi, Poulin, Gruden, and Puustinen to start. MAYBE give early-season nods to the likes of Yager and Koivunen and see where they go. Realistically, they could really trim down the roster and open up cap space if they were willing.

XXXX-Sid-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-XXXX
DOC-Pono-Puustinen
Poulin-Eller-Puljujarvi
Gruden

Is a forward group I could see being structured. Impact piece to 1LW and trade/FA to 2RW.

If I'm Dubas, I get more aggressive and a little more high-risk with some of the moves, for example - trading Jarry. You resign Neds and bring up Blomqvist. Risky? Sure. But...how much worse could it realistically be? Not like you're trading Helle, Vasi, or Shesterkin here. And the hope would be, you get an impact piece or draft capital back. If nothing else, a major shake up in the dynamics of the roster with youth infusion wouldn't be the worst thing.

 

[Gurglesons]

Graves has been terrible everywhere he's played.

Anyone that thought that contract was going to pan out has no concept of hockey or never saw him play.

 

[Turin]

I am much more inclined to believe IcedCapp than Guentzel's side on the story. They intended to sign Guentzel until the bottom fell out around the LA game or the Calgary game and they pivoted.

 

[eXile3]

Graves has been terrible everywhere he's played.

Anyone that thought that contract was going to pan out has no concept of hockey or never saw him play.

I honestly debate if they watched any tape on him or just looked at his size.

 

[Gurglesons]

I honestly debate if they watched any tape on him or just looked at his size.

It's incredibly wild that they should have been easily able to digest what he provided too as his partner last year was a player our staff had for years.

Maybe that's how dumb they are though. They thought he was covering for Marino not vice versa.

 

[Turin]

I see Wyatt Johnston is turning into a stud. Why didn’t we grab someone from the Dallas organization instead of rushing to hire Dufus?

Was hiring Dallas’ scouting staff on the table?

 

[Rudy Russo]

Yeah, cap compliance was tough throughout the year but that's why you didn't sign a guy like Acciari. If you must, go seek out any of the $900k 4Cs available. Or you just, ya know, waive and reassign Harkins and bring up any of the aforementioned guys.

Dubas has been a mixed bag all season. There are some good things and clearly some bad.

On most of the bad, I can least understand the decision at the time of the decision.
Acciari - I get the signing at the time but it clearly did not work out. So I'm neutral to an extent. Where it gets negative is Dubas doing nothing to move him. He could have and should have been gone at the TDL for even future considerations.
Smith - I thought this was still a good trade. Didn't work out super well but overall, it was a solid trade. We basically traded Bleuger for Smith and I'm okay with it. I would support a move like this every time. Sometimes they work out and sometimes they don't. It's a third.
Nieto - This one I wasn't high on because I think you could have used the guys like Hino, Big Z, Poulin, White, Nylander, etc instead. What baffles me more is that, Nieto showed nothing extra beyond any of the guys I mentioned...and yet he seems waiver-proof. If I saw Nieto as a guy being up and down along side the likes of Hino, Z, and White, I wouldn't have an issue. But seeing him viewed as a staple in the lineup has me grinding my teeth. Especially now that we have Puljujarvi and Bemstrom with Poulin and Gruden also looking capable. There's just no need for Nieto. Again, another guy that needs to be gone.
EK - Homerun still in my mind. Sending out the copious amounts of trash that Hextall acquired took a lot of doing. Thank god.
Jarry - Didn't like the signing at the time but I still understand why it was done. The goalie market was abysmal and Neds hadn't proved himself obviously. Still, too much for too long but I think given the abysmal goalie market, Jarry is a very tradeable asset to a team looking for legit goaltending. I don't like it but...Dubas was in a positon where he practically had to keep his starter.
Graves - hasn't worked out but I at least understand the signing. They needed a Dumo replacement, we had nothing in house, Graves was willing to sign. Graves mediocre play isn't totally on Dubas. I would put the fault at 60% Graves, 35% Sullivan, 5% Dubas.
Neds - Homerun. Dude has been outstanding.

Obviously, in this coming off-season, Dubas needs to do more major surgery. I expect one of Smith or Rakell to go out. I expect someone currently signed in the bottom 6 to go out - Nieto, Acciari, or Bemstrom. I expect there to be a trade that brings in a younger, impact piece. I'm willing to get we see a major roster player moved (Jarry, Graves, Pettersson, Smith, Rakell, Eller). I also expect them to give more looks to these younger kids - Pono, Puljujarvi, Poulin, Gruden, and Puustinen to start. MAYBE give early-season nods to the likes of Yager and Koivunen and see where they go. Realistically, they could really trim down the roster and open up cap space if they were willing.

XXXX-Sid-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-XXXX
DOC-Pono-Puustinen
Poulin-Eller-Puljujarvi
Gruden

Is a forward group I could see being structured. Impact piece to 1LW and trade/FA to 2RW.

If I'm Dubas, I get more aggressive and a little more high-risk with some of the moves, for example - trading Jarry. You resign Neds and bring up Blomqvist. Risky? Sure. But...how much worse could it realistically be? Not like you're trading Helle, Vasi, or Shesterkin here. And the hope would be, you get an impact piece or draft capital back. If nothing else, a major shake up in the dynamics of the roster with youth infusion wouldn't be the worst thing.

Start with waiving Nieto, and not re-signing Carter and Hawkins. I'd re-sign Ned, and see if you can trade Jarry, Smith, Acciari and POJ. I know many penguins fans would love to see Graves gone, but he still has too many years left on his current deal. I'd like to see Ludvig and St. Ivany the bottom pairing, and Dubas focus should be adding two top six forwards.

 

[Gurglesons]

Start with waiving Nieto, and not re-signing Carter and Hawkins. I'd re-sign Ned, and see if you can trade Jarry, Smith, Acciari and POJ. I know many penguins fans would love to see Graves gone, but he still has too many years left on his current deal. I'd like to see Ludvig and St. Ivany the bottom pairing, and Dubas focus should be adding two top six forwards.

If Dubas can trade Jarry without giving up assets, he deserves a statue.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

If Dubas can trade Jarry without giving up assets, he deserves a statue.

Is there room for a Dubas statue next to the Sullivan one they're putting up in Lemieux's spot?

 

[SEALBound]

Start with waiving Nieto, and not re-signing Carter and Hawkins. I'd re-sign Ned, and see if you can trade Jarry, Smith, Acciari and POJ. I know many penguins fans would love to see Graves gone, but he still has too many years left on his current deal. I'd like to see Ludvig and St. Ivany the bottom pairing, and Dubas focus should be adding two top six forwards.

My gut tells me they give him another year. Also, if they replace Sullivan, I definitely give him another year.

 

[Rudy Russo]

My gut tells me they give him another year. Also, if they replace Sullivan, I definitely give him another year.

We need to hope one team in the playoffs tanks in the 1st round who before the playoff start their goalie situation is suspect.

 

[ThosePuckingPenguins]

We need to hope one team in the playoffs tanks in the 1st round who before the playoff start their goalie situation is suspect.

Doesn’t even need to be a team that makes the playoffs. The Devils are right there.

 

[Rudy Russo]

Doesn’t even need to be a team that makes the playoffs. The Devils are right there.

Kings, Sabres and Oilers come to mind too.

 

[SEALBound]

Yeah, I think there would be takers for Jarry if a team was serious about getting a starter. Devils were willing to pay 1st + Holtz for Markstrom.

I wonder if you could get the Devils to give us Holtz or their 1st for Jarry this draft?

Assume 2 things - 1. Devils pick around 15. 2. We finish 11+. 3. Carolina doesn't make the SCF, we get the 2nd.

Jarry+2nd for NJD 1st + Bahl

That would make giving the 1st to SJS much more palatable.

 

[Rave7215]

I have no doubt that Carter is going back into the line up. He's a veteran who is likely to retire. Sully is going to give him every chance to play until the end of the season.

Easiest call of my life. Get Sully out of here

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah, I think there would be takers for Jarry if a team was serious about getting a starter. Devils were willing to pay 1st + Holtz for Markstrom.

I wonder if you could get the Devils to give us Holtz or their 1st for Jarry this draft?

Assume 2 things - 1. Devils pick around 15. 2. We finish 11+. 3. Carolina doesn't make the SCF, we get the 2nd.

Jarry+2nd for NJD 1st + Bahl

That would make giving the 1st to SJS much more palatable.

I don't think you are getting any value in any world for Jarry.

Jarry basically went to UFA and came back because nobody wanted to give him the contract he got.

 

[BusinessGoose]

I don't think you are getting any value in any world for Jarry.

Jarry basically went to UFA and came back because nobody wanted to give him the contract he got.

Well, those other teams were probably realistic and offered 3.5 haha, jarry @ 5+ might have no value to the league

 

[SomeDude]

I love how Dubas praised the youth on the 4th line for giving the team a boost and Sully just can’t wait to get Carter and soon Harkins back in.

Clearly everyone is on the same page.

 

[Shrimper]

Kings, Sabres and Oilers come to mind too.

Didn't Jarry play in Edmonton in the WHL?

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Yeah, I bet the guy Dubas specifically called out in his trade as an asset and has a very deep relationship with just was randomly brought into the trade for "cap reasons".

Carolina had like 26+ mil in cap space with Bunting next year.

I think what's more likely is that because of the nature of the cap this season, most teams who talked with Dubas about a Guentzel trade probably said they need some sort of salary to go back to Pittsburgh to make it all work. I doubt there was much concern about long-term cap since Guentzel is a UFA.

And at that point, Dubas likely prioritized Carolina, because he knows what he has in Bunting and Carolina has a deep system.

I think there are some GMs who would prioritize getting one single elite prospect and a first round pick. Dubas obviously prioritized getting more than one prospect.

Maybe if the Pens' system was in better shape, the parameters of the trade change. But I don't have an issue getting three prospects who immediately become some of the Pens' best prospects, a useful player, and a couple additional picks for a rental.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think what's more likely is that because of the nature of the cap this season, most teams who talked with Dubas about a Guentzel trade probably said they need some sort of salary to go back to Pittsburgh to make it all work. I doubt there was much concern about long-term cap since Guentzel is a UFA.

And at that point, Dubas likely prioritized Carolina, because he knows what he has in Bunting and Carolina has a deep system.

I think there are some GMs who would prioritize getting one single elite prospect and a first round pick. Dubas obviously prioritized getting more than one prospect.

Maybe if the Pens' system was in better shape, the parameters of the trade change. But I don't have an issue getting three prospects who immediately become some of the Pens' best prospects, a useful player, and a couple additional picks for a rental.

I think we need to stop making some weird excuse for the fact that Dubas has clearly said he valued Bunting and even without him saying that it's obvious he is one of his guys.

Let's just stop trying to pretend it was good trade. It hampered our cap ability this summer with a player who really doesn't add much. It added very little of value in terms of picks. And it gave us a couple of prospects that really have little upside at being anything beyond support players.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I think we need to stop making some weird excuse for the fact that Dubas has clearly said he valued Bunting and even without him saying that it's obvious he is one of his guys.

Let's just stop trying to pretend it was good trade. It hampered our cap ability this summer with a player who really doesn't add much. It added very little of value in terms of picks. And it gave us a couple of prospects that really have little upside at being anything beyond support players.

I agree that Dubas values Bunting. Every GM has his guys. Rutherford did it, too (Matt Cullen, anyone?)

But I completely disagree with the premise of the rest of your post. We completely differ on the value Bunting brings and on your evaluation of the prospects. Worlds apart.