Salary Cap: Pens Salary Thread: Pens Ownership "Dubas... that Coca-Cola machine. I want you to shoot the lock off it. There may be some waiver players in there."

[Gurglesons]

He's outlined it a couple of times. The idea was to build a roster this year that utilized offense in the top six with improved defense in the bottom six. By improving the defensive ability of the bottom six from last year, the hope was that the Penguins would give up fewer goals and blow fewer leads. By adding Smith and Karlsson, the hope was that they'd have the top six skill and the power play ability to score plenty without needing a huge lift from their depth.

The defense part worked until the last month. The Pens were a top five goals against team through February.

The scoring part failed them. They couldn't generate enough offense, especially on the power play.

We should definitely be praising the plan that worked for half of the season. Amazing work.

The 114 point pace team wasn't Hextall's. It was Rutherford's. Hextall took the job on February 9, 2021. His only addition was Carter.

So Hextall took a 114-point pace team and lost 23 points in two years.

Let's see what our point totals look like next season. Dubas already shaved off 10 in a year.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

We should definitely be praising the plan that worked for half of the season. Amazing work.



Let's see what our point totals look like next season. Dubas already shaved off 10 in a year.

Dubas has already talked about learning from this past offseason. I'm willing to give him a chance to correct course.

You're also looking at a team that was always going to decline. How much should any GM be blamed for a team getting older and less productive? What about Sullivan? You've placed a ton of blame at his feet. How much is he to blame for not making Hextall's roster work? What about this year? Dubas built the roster to fit Sullivan's ideal lineup. Is that Dubas' fault? Or is it Sullivan's for saying this is what he wanted?

 

[Gurglesons]

Dubas has already talked about learning from this past offseason. I'm willing to give him a chance to correct course.

You're also looking at a team that was always going to decline. How much should any GM be blamed for a team getting older and less productive? What about Sullivan? You've placed a ton of blame at his feet. How much is he to blame for not making Hextall's roster work? What about this year? Dubas built the roster to fit Sullivan's ideal lineup. Is that Dubas' fault? Or is it Sullivan's for saying this is what he wanted?

It's Dubas' fault just like it was Hextall's fault.

I was fine with us firing Hextall. My point was it didn't matter at all because of the coach. Dubas is likely going to keep Sullivan this summer.

It will still be Dubas' fault if he doesn't fire Sullivan. And if he doesn't have autonomy to fire him then he should be begging for it to hapepn if he has even a microcosm of intelligence.

Hextall IMO was a much more creative GM than Dubas has been though in Toronto or here.. Both here and in PHI. I don't see Dubas ever swinging trades like Schenn or Petry.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

He's outlined it a couple of times. The idea was to build a roster this year that utilized offense in the top six with improved defense in the bottom six. By improving the defensive ability of the bottom six from last year, the hope was that the Penguins would give up fewer goals and blow fewer leads. By adding Smith and Karlsson, the hope was that they'd have the top six skill and the power play ability to score plenty without needing a huge lift from their depth.

The defense part worked until the last month. The Pens were a top five goals against team through February.

The scoring part failed them. They couldn't generate enough offense, especially on the power play.

Having a shitty plan isn't much better than having no plan. The end result is a shitshow of a club.

I just think the arguing over who was better between Hextall and Dubas, or whether Dubas had a "plan" or not is the equivalent of asking whether you'd like someone to shit on your face or piss on your face.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

It's Dubas' fault just like it was Hextall's fault.

I was fine with us firing Hextall. My point was it didn't matter at all because of the coach. Dubas is likely going to keep Sullivan this summer.

It will still be Dubas' fault if he doesn't fire Sullivan. And if he doesn't have autonomy to fire him then he should be begging for it to hapepn if he has even a microcosm of intelligence.

Hextall IMO was a much more creative GM than Dubas has been though in Toronto or here.. Both here and in PHI. I don't see Dubas ever swinging trades like Schenn or Petry.

I simply do not understand how you feel that acquiring Jeff Petry is creative but that shedding Granlund, Petry, and Rutta to acquire Erik Karlsson is not.

That is baffling to me.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'm more anti-Sullivan than anti-Dubas because 8 years, c'mon. But Dubas strikes me as a talented young BSer who gets by on a sort of Theo Epstein vibe (hm, not a coincidence given the ownership group) in a sport where it's unclear that analytics are even useful. Like a B tier McKinsey analyst.

 

[Gurglesons]

Having a shitty plan isn't much better than having no plan. The end result is a shitshow of a club.

I just think the arguing over who was better between Hextall and Dubas, or whether Dubas had a "plan" or not is the equivalent of asking whether you'd like someone to shit on your face or piss on your face.

Yeah this is the right take.

Hextall and Dubas as Penguins GM have both been bowel movements.

I simply do not understand how you feel that acquiring Jeff Petry is creative but that shedding Granlund, Petry, and Rutta to acquire Erik Karlsson is not.

That is baffling to me.

Because EK trade wasn’t creative. It was Phil Kessel level of falling into our laps.

Marino and Matheson was at least a creative attempt of getting rid of two analytically positive entities and replacing them with potential downgrades that could play a more playoff suited game.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Having a shitty plan isn't much better than having no plan. The end result is a shitshow of a club.

I just think the arguing over who was better between Hextall and Dubas, or whether Dubas had a "plan" or not is the equivalent of asking whether you'd like someone to shit on your face or piss on your face.

While I understand that take, in my view, the ability to formulate and explain a plan is a crucial component of having the ability to later reevaluate that plan. If you're detailed enough to put a strategy in place, you should be sharp enough to later say, "Well, that didn't work" and try something new.

Rutherford fell flat on his face his first year, too. He went bigger/grittier - Hornqvist, Downie, Goc, Lapierre - and it failed, especially in Johnston's system that was supposed to be about puck movement. He and Sullivan figured out speed was the key and made that correction midway through 2015-16.

I think Dubas could make similar adjustments, though it'll likely be a longer term process given the overall age of the team rather than a quick course correction supported by elite players still in their prime.

 

[Gurglesons]

While I understand that take, in my view, the ability to formulate and explain a plan is a crucial component of having the ability to later reevaluate that plan. If you're detailed enough to put a strategy in place, you should be sharp enough to later say, "Well, that didn't work" and try something new.

Rutherford fell flat on his face his first year, too. He went bigger/grittier - Hornqvist, Downie, Goc, Lapierre - and it failed, especially in Johnston's system that was supposed to be about puck movement. He and Sullivan figured out speed was the key and made that correction midway through 2015-16.

I think Dubas could make similar adjustments, though it'll likely be a longer term process given the overall age of the team rather than a quick course correction supported by elite players still in their prime.

Goc was acquired by Shero.

"bigger" in Hornqvist, Downie and Lapierre is hilarious.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Having a shitty plan isn't much better than having no plan. The end result is a shitshow of a club.

I just think the arguing over who was better between Hextall and Dubas, or whether Dubas had a "plan" or not is the equivalent of asking whether you'd like someone to shit on your face or piss on your face.

This is where I kind of am on all this.

To your first point, this is where we as fans may never really know about marching orders/driving factors behind things.

I *think* that most on this board agree that the team is cooked and needs to rebuild starting now. But what if the acquiring Bunting, saying they're going to retool and remain competitive are directives placed on Dubas by FSG? I'm not trying to absolve him. It's just that playoff revenue is attractive to owners, and missing the playoffs therefore is not. They may have demands that they bring this team back to the playoffs next year/year after for financial reasons - regardless of how unlikely, improbable, and ultimately counterproductive we as serious fans see it.

 

[Gurglesons]

This is where I kind of am on all this.

To your first point, this is where we as fans may never really know about marching orders/driving factors behind things.

I *think* that most on this board agree that the team is cooked and needs to rebuild starting now. But what if the acquiring Bunting, saying they're going to retool and remain competitive are directives placed on Dubas by FSG? I'm not trying to absolve him. It's just that playoff revenue is attractive to owners, and missing the playoffs therefore is not. They may have demands that they bring this team back to the playoffs next year/year after for financial reasons - regardless of how unlikely, improbable, and ultimately counterproductive we as serious fans see it.

Yeah, FSG is telling Dubas to acquire a player he's had a relationship with since he was a teenager...

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

While I understand that take, in my view, the ability to formulate and explain a plan is a crucial component of having the ability to later reevaluate that plan. If you're detailed enough to put a strategy in place, you should be sharp enough to later say, "Well, that didn't work" and try something new.

I think Dubas could make similar adjustments, though it'll likely be a longer term process given the overall age of the team rather than a quick course correction supported by elite players still in their prime.

See, this is where I disagree. If he sticks to Sullivan's vision of "two scoring lines, two defensive lines who suck ass offensively", then that's not a good plan. Even if you "make adjustments" by bringing in different players for those roles, it's still a flawed plan to begin with. Making adjustments to a flawed plan leads to the exact same issues, just with different names on the backs of the jerseys.

If I'm building a house and the actual structure of the house is flawed, it doesn't matter if I re-evaluate and bring in higher end finishings to make the inside look better. At the end of the day, whether I have a high end kitchen or one that looks like it's from the 70's, it won't matter a lick if my house crumbles to the ground because the actual structure sucks.

Dubas would literally have to do a complete 180 and put his foot down about the bottom six being an offensive black hole for me to think his "adjustments" would matter.

(And all the above is just ignoring the Sullivan coaching thing for a moment for the sake of roster-only discussion)

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Yeah, FSG is telling Dubas to acquire a player he's had a relationship with since he was a teenager...

That's not what I'm saying.

Bunting was the piece that Dubas chose, and I know exactly where you stand on that, but what if he had a directive from above that he needed to acquire a piece that could contribute now in any Guentzel deal?

 

[Gurglesons]

That's not what I'm saying.

Bunting was the piece that Dubas chose, and I know exactly where you stand on that, but what if he had a directive from above that he needed to acquire a piece that could contribute now in any Guentzel deal?

Then be creative about it. Get the best return you possibly can in terms of assets (1sts, 2nds, high end prospects) and then leverage those assets or the ones you already have to make us a better team.

That's what I mean by lack of creativity when it comes to Dubas. He took that messaging from FSG or whatever and he did the most bland thing possible. Targeted a former guy he liked, got a couple of mid 2nd round picks that could potentially make a push for the roster next year, and a got a 2nd round pick that has the option of becoming a 1st.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

Still no Poulin, k.

 

[Fordy]

didn't read everything but i think everyone is kind of falling into the same old pens beat journalist garbage of analyzing individual moves and whether they seem to have worked or not

until you see a new coach - and how many coaches have had the luxury of being essentially backstopped by different GMs in their tenure who all separately took all blame for failure - how can you really say every single player they've signed or traded for has sucked? hextall looked like a genius at one point, now he gets blamed for everything. jr might have been throwing anything at the wall to see what stuck, but that's exactly what we should have been doing at that point. the problem was we kept a coach who laid a giant f***ing egg in 2020 with a roster we'd dream of right now. dubas came in and gave that same guy his perfect f***ing chipotle order, and it turns out that was the worst thing we've had yet

what gm would have solved this? everyone sucks, so fire everyone. oh but not the coach

and i get no one on here really disagrees with that, but this is just turning into nonsensical pens beat writer "coach sully what massive contributions do you think acciari brought to the lineup tonight, since your gm is an idiot who is hurting you for no reason" which is kind of boring and the team is boring enough already

 

[Pancakes]

didn't read everything but i think everyone is kind of falling into the same old pens beat journalist garbage of analyzing individual moves and whether they seem to have worked or not

I agree with what you're saying here but Dubas is also the one employing Mike Sullivan. He can fire him if he wants to. He came here and signed a long deal where he was given pres/gm powers. He's got the clout to do pretty much whatever he wants. FSG may like Sullivan a lot but if Dubas sold them on needing a new coach they'd let him get one.

 

[farscape1]

My worry is Sid signs a 1 yr deal or longer so he can retire with Geno and that means Sully stays the whole time too. Just feels like we are never getting rid of Sully and probably end up as the GM of the Pens.

 

[Ryder71]

My worry is Sid signs a 1 yr deal or longer so he can retire with Geno and that means Sully stays the whole time too. Just feels like we are never getting rid of Sully and probably end up as the GM of the Pens.

My fear is Sid wont leave and the changing of the guard doesn't happen sooner than later. He should go to COL with Nate dog and leave us alone. If we're being honest that's what's best for this team in the long run.

 

[Jacob]

The PP killed the season and they did basically nothing to fix it. Occasionally going with Karlsson or Letang on the point. Sometimes splitting 2 units. For something so bad that never even showed any glimpses of improvement you’d think we’d have seen some drastic changes. A new assistant to run it. Senseless to waste an entire season and do so little when it’s just 1 thing keeping you out of the POs. Todd Reirden is nobody. You fire him and bring in literally anyone. If it doesn’t work at least you can say you tried.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Dubas has already talked about learning from this past offseason. I'm willing to give him a chance to correct course.

You're also looking at a team that was always going to decline. How much should any GM be blamed for a team getting older and less productive? What about Sullivan? You've placed a ton of blame at his feet. How much is he to blame for not making Hextall's roster work? What about this year? Dubas built the roster to fit Sullivan's ideal lineup. Is that Dubas' fault? Or is it Sullivan's for saying this is what he wanted?

Have said the same for a while.

Dubas doesn't get off completely free from mistakes.

However, people need to be clear eyed about this team. It's old. And getting older. The failures aren't really fixable. Because they are not simply making a better couple of signings in the bottom six in the off-season. And the minors are mostly devoid of talent. Certainly none coming up soon.

The issues go to the core.

Don't get me wrong. Still some talent there.

But not enough.

Some still believe that this is easily fixable. Far too many, although fewer all the time.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

What was Dubas' direction again? Refresh my memory.

Whichever direction Mike Sullivan points, probably.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

My worry is Sid signs a 1 yr deal or longer so he can retire with Geno and that means Sully stays the whole time too. Just feels like we are never getting rid of Sully and probably end up as the GM of the Pens.

I think Sid's just sticking around until the 2026 Olympics, and probably retires after the 2025-26 season. We'll just have to wait and see if that also means Sully sticks around until then.

 

[66-30-33]

The PP killed the season and they did basically nothing to fix it. Occasionally going with Karlsson or Letang on the point. Sometimes splitting 2 units. For something so bad that never even showed any glimpses of improvement you’d think we’d have seen some drastic changes. A new assistant to run it. Senseless to waste an entire season and do so little when it’s just 1 thing keeping you out of the POs. Todd Reirden is nobody. You fire him and bring in literally anyone. If it doesn’t work at least you can say you tried.

Going to be a long miserable decade for us! we will probably rebuild our rebuild...we are so dumb.

HOW CAN YOU NOT FIX THINGS?????? even our f***in Rearenden is untouchable. Like HOW???? it's going to be hilarious if they don't fix things and shrug it off as a fluke year and do nothing.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Going to be a long miserable decade for us! we will probably rebuild our rebuild...we are so dumb.

HOW CAN YOU NOT FIX THINGS?????? even our f***in Rearenden is untouchable. Like HOW????b] it's going to be hilarious if they don't fix things and shrug it off as a fluke year and do nothing.[/b]

Well, now that you mention it ...

Actual GF - 33
xGF - 58

So the stats nerds running this club probably will say they were just unlucky and should have scored almost twice as many as they did score.

See? We're still dominating the xGF scores even if we're losing the actual scores.