Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[Jag68Sid87]

But you do need specialists. And Nieto and Acciari are on a PK that save last game was really shutting other teams down. Honestly, I just don't think this sorta thing is a big deal. But players like Beau and DOC are more in the way of Puju. Tomasino is a perfect example as he's third line RW. I myself prefer Tomasino. In any case it's like shuffling deck chairs on the titanic. None of the players in question matter all that much on a team going nowhere.

If this was a difference of a guy here or a guy there that puts us over the top for something I can see that sort of thing. But Honestly I don't think JP was all that. We're really grasping at straws here.

If you wanna be upset, be upset at the aging core, Bryan Rust, Tristan Jarry and Sullivan. Those are the individuals who should shoulder the majority of the blame. Remember, these individuals have all been around the last five or six years of ineptitude and underperformance. Where's the ire for the core? How many years do they get a pass? They're the reasons Sullivans still here. When are they gonna be turned on? Apparently they can do no wrong according to many here. THEY ARE THE PROBLEM!

I don't believe Nieto was here for the loss to the Isles or Habs in the playoffs. When Jarry was god awful against the Isles I don't believe Acciari was here either. When Crosby put up 6 points over 14 playoff games from 18-19 through 20-21, I don't remember Nieto being here, do you?

How many penalty-killing forwards does one lineup need, though? You cannot tell me that Puljujarvi cannot squeeze into this lineup. I mean, one of our FIRST-line wingers (Rust) is one of our top-four penalty-killing forwards. You add Glass, Lizotte, O'Connor, Acciari and Nieto to the mix, and you clearly have surplus.

Also, the core needs one more addition to it. It is not the "problem" you make it out to be. One more core player up front (I will continue to hold out hope that Dubas has intel about Marner until such time that the latter decides to stay put) is what they need, and obviously it is aging. But they are not the reason we have not been able to make the playoffs recently. The coach shoulders most of the blame.

You do not need six PK forwards in the lineup every single night. That's ridiculous. And you can have both Tomasino and Puljujarvi in the lineup. Every team needs secondary and tertiary offense. But this coach prefers Beauvillier over the latter. That's the issue.

Sidney Crosby should be on the ice when there are like 10 seconds left on the PK. Last game, I think we had a PK with 3 seconds left on it and a face-off. How do you not put Crosby out there. Instead, Sullivan went back to his original PK forwards, Acciari and Nieto, to kill off THREE SECONDS.

Remember when Nieto was on LTIR and everybody was completely ignoring him? We thought he was simply going to be waived and sent to W-B/S. Now he is an integral part of the team. And honestly, that drags a roster down because it limits you as a team.

But that is Mike Sullivan hockey in a nutshell, the single biggest reason for our repeated failures since 2018.

 

[Empoleon8771]

How many penalty-killing forwards does one lineup need, though? You cannot tell me that Puljujarvi cannot squeeze into this lineup. I mean, one of our FIRST-line wingers (Rust) is one of our top-four penalty-killing forwards. You add Glass, Lizotte, O'Connor, Acciari and Nieto to the mix, and you clearly have surplus.

Most teams have 5 or 6 PKing forwards. Right now they have Rust, Lizotte, Acciari, Nieto and O'Connor as their main PKers, with Glass as a backup in case they need him.

They could go with 5 but I don't think any team out there goes with less than 5. They really need a guy like Smith that can both drive a 3rd line offensively while also playing notable minutes on the PK, he didn't really work out here (or the NYR, for that matter), but his skillset is exactly what that 3rd line use.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Most teams have 5 or 6 PKing forwards. Right now they have Rust, Lizotte, Acciari, Nieto and O'Connor as their main PKers, with Glass as a backup in case they need him.

They could go with 5 but I don't think any team out there goes with less than 5. They really need a guy like Smith that can both drive a 3rd line offensively while also playing notable minutes on the PK, he didn't really work out here (or the NYR, for that matter), but his skillset is exactly what that 3rd line use.

as Exile 3 replied earlier, PKing is not that hard to do. Everybody wants to score goals and provide offense. But at some point players realize that PKing is their ticket to sticking in the NHL. Our pro scouting for PK forwards is porous at best. Also, who is doing the PKing in the AHL? Is it only non-prospects? Ponomarev is definitely eligible to kill penalties at the highest level. Why not recall him? It certainly would not hurt if we tried guys like Poulin and even McGroarty on the PK.

The issue is we lack talent and have lacked talent up front since Sullivan last won the Stanley Cup. That is not a coincidence. The day Mike Sullivan wakes up and realizes that he has never won shit without a pure offensive talent like Phil Kessel on his third line is the day things will take a turn for the better with this organization.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I know that’s why teams do it, I just think it’s dumb. I’m probably contrarian here but I don’t think penalty killing is a talent. I think the majority of players can be taught, or already know how to play defense when a man down.

So instead if going “we need a good pk guy”, it should be “who makes our lineup better overall, and then we figure out who is best fit to pk”

Oh yea- you and I agree 100% on this.

Until there is a revolutionary coach that has success in the NHL, we're gonna see this until the day we die. It's insane.

But then again, the league caters to guys with lower skill and who punch people in the face/elbow them in the head bc it's a competitive advantage to do so.

 

[Fordy]

I know that’s why teams do it, I just think it’s dumb. I’m probably contrarian here but I don’t think penalty killing is a talent. I think the majority of players can be taught, or already know how to play defense when a man down.

So instead if going “we need a good pk guy”, it should be “who makes our lineup better overall, and then we figure out who is best fit to pk”

becoming a "good pk guy" in the nhl basically starts and ends with a coach who decides he wants you to/will allow you to pk

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I know that’s why teams do it, I just think it’s dumb. I’m probably contrarian here but I don’t think penalty killing is a talent. I think the majority of players can be taught, or already know how to play defense when a man down.

So instead if going “we need a good pk guy”, it should be “who makes our lineup better overall, and then we figure out who is best fit to pk”

The most high level PKing ability is probably either skating or the ability to read the play developing. Although a good coach/scheme and communication can even cut down on requiring THAT if they stick to the scheme and clog up passing lanes.

Specialized penalty killers are and always have been a racket cooked up by dino-brained coaches to keep their favorite plugs on the roster.

But hey I'm sure the PA loves it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm not one to act like PKing is some sort of special talent, but there are guys who have clawed their way to the league by killing penalties. The idea that killing penalties isn't difficult is about as valid as the idea that playing on the powerplay isn't difficult. The issue is that Sullivan is overlooking that these PKers are dogshit players otherwise while continuing to play them, and/or they're not actually good at being PKers anymore.

I'd probably argue it's easy to be an okay PKer but it's difficult to be a good PKer. If you just have "good players and figure out who to PK", your PK will most likely be bad. Either that or you'll have guys like Crosby having to kill penalties, because he'll be the best you have to do it.

The most high level PKing ability is probably either skating or the ability to read the play developing. Although a good coach/scheme and communication can even cut down on requiring THAT if they stick to the scheme and clog up passing lanes.

Specialized penalty killers are and always have been a racket cooked up by dino-brained coaches to keep their favorite plugs on the roster.

But hey I'm sure the PA loves it.

I think this is basically it. Fast skaters who can forecheck well, good faceoff guys and smart positional players are basically the 3 skills you need to be a PKer. Or at least those 3 skills would make a "perfect" PKer.

 

[SEALBound]

I think you can teach PK'ing in a way that you can't teach PP'ing. If a guy like Puljujarvi wasn't "a PK'er", why is there (seemingly) a notion that he would never be able to learn?

Put him on a PK during practice and see how it goes. Coach him up. I would be open to trying that if the backroom discussion was "Well, we think Puljujarvi is better offensively than Nieto but Nieto PKs and Jesse doesn't." I mean, Puljujarvi was a pretty decent defensive player. Seems odd that he was never used on the PK but I imagine the issue stems from concerns about skating post-injury (with focus being on pure mobility).

 

[The Old Master]

I'm not one to act like PKing is some sort of special talent, but there are guys who have clawed their way to the league by killing penalties. The idea that killing penalties isn't difficult is about as valid as the idea that playing on the powerplay isn't difficult. The issue is that Sullivan is overlooking that these PKers are dogshit players otherwise while continuing to play them, and/or they're not actually good at being PKers anymore.

I'd probably argue it's easy to be an okay PKer but it's difficult to be a good PKer. If you just have "good players and figure out who to PK", your PK will most likely be bad. Either that or you'll have guys like Crosby having to kill penalties, because he'll be the best you have to do it.



I think this is basically it. Fast skaters who can forecheck well, good faceoff guys and smart positional players are basically the 3 skills you need to be a PKer. Or at least those 3 skills would make a "perfect" PKer.

and good coaching can compensate on two of those.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think you can teach PK'ing in a way that you can't teach PP'ing. If a guy like Puljujarvi wasn't "a PK'er", why is there (seemingly) a notion that he would never be able to learn?

Put him on a PK during practice and see how it goes. Coach him up. I would be open to trying that if the backroom discussion was "Well, we think Puljujarvi is better offensively than Nieto but Nieto PKs and Jesse doesn't." I mean, Puljujarvi was a pretty decent defensive player. Seems odd that he was never used on the PK but I imagine the issue stems from concerns about skating post-injury (with focus being on pure mobility).

lololol

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think you can teach PK'ing in a way that you can't teach PP'ing. If a guy like Puljujarvi wasn't "a PK'er", why is there (seemingly) a notion that he would never be able to learn?

Put him on a PK during practice and see how it goes. Coach him up. I would be open to trying that if the backroom discussion was "Well, we think Puljujarvi is better offensively than Nieto but Nieto PKs and Jesse doesn't." I mean, Puljujarvi was a pretty decent defensive player. Seems odd that he was never used on the PK but I imagine the issue stems from concerns about skating post-injury (with focus being on pure mobility).

I'd argue 2 things here:

1. If numerous NHL coaches have not bothered teaching Puljujarvi how to PK, what reason do we as fans believe that he can be developed into a PKer? It's not just Sullivan, it's been every single one of Puljujarvi's professional coaches that have just not bothered trying to get him to PK.
2. I'd also very easily argue that you can't teach how to play on the PP, or at least how to be a good player on the PP.

I think special teams are like 50% talent level and 50% having the specific skillsets needed for special teams. On the PK, a more talented player who can't anticipate plays well won't be a better PKer than a less talented player that anticipates plays well. On the PP, a tunnel vision player who scores really well off the rush at 5v5 won't be a better PP player than a slower but more creative/playmaking player.

A huge factor in both the PK and PP is having a high hockey IQ and anticipating plays well. I never got the vibe at all that Puljujarvi fit that. I also think that's a big reason why Kapanen was never good on the PP and his PK work was just him being a threat offensively on the PK.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

A player with Puljujarvi's size, skating ability and hands should always have a place in the National Hockey League, whether this is 1980-81, 1999-2000 or 2024-25.

The game has not changed that much to the point where talent no longer matters.

BUT, Mike Sullivan's reputation is so beyond any reproach around the league that if HE does not play a guy, that MUST mean the player cannot help your team. This is what happened to Phil Kessel, essentially. This is what is happening to Jesse Puljujarvi.

You can always find room for talent. Stick Puljujarvi on the third line, leave him there, play him with more responsible forwards and stick him in front of the net on the second PP unit. How many games did we use him in exactly that scenario?

I really feel for the guy but he got Mike Sullivan'ed and when that happens there is little you can do.

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.

Puljujarvi was available for free. Just pick up his contract off waivers. No one, not even the worst teams in the league, thought it was worth a shot.

Phil Kessel played four more seasons after leaving Pittsburgh. His last year with the Penguins was good. But his skills quickly eroded to the point where he was a healthy scratch with Vegas and no one was willing to give him a PTO the past two years.

Sullivan has his warts and should no longer be the head coach of the Pittsburgh Penguins. But sometimes players just get old and sometimes players aren't just that good.

 

[eXile3]

I don’t think it takes a high hockey IQ to PK. In fact out of all situations, PP, even strength, I think it takes the least. The majority of it is cutting off passes and shots from the middle of the ice.

I was good at PKing and I was an awful hockey player. It’s all stick work and standing in the way.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think the other factor that isn't being touched on here is what exactly has Puljujarvi shown to warrant further development to try to make a role for him on the NHL team? He's 26 years old, has hit 30 points in a season once in his career (when he spent significant time with McDavid) and has a career pace of 27 points.

I fully understand why they're trying to develop that skillset with McGroarty, it makes him a lineup mainstay even if he doesn't hit his offensive upside. But McGroarty is 21.

I don’t think it takes a high hockey IQ to PK. In fact out of all situations, PP, even strength, I think it takes the least. The majority of it is cutting off passes and shots from the middle of the ice.

I was good at PKing and I was an awful hockey player. It’s all stick work and standing in the way.

Yes it does, absolutely at the speeds that they play at in the NHL. Go look at how shitty Graves looks on their PK if you want to see what a bad hockey IQ does on the PK.

You can't cut off passes if you're spinning around like a top trying to follow the play. Graves regularly lets cross crease passes go through simply because he can't anticipate the play and is always a second behind mentally.

 

[Ryder71]

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.

Puljujarvi was available for free. Just pick up his contract off waivers. No one, not even the worst teams in the league, thought it was worth a shot.

Phil Kessel played four more seasons after leaving Pittsburgh. His last year with the Penguins was good. But his skills quickly eroded to the point where he was a healthy scratch with Vegas and no one was willing to give him a PTO the past two years.

Sullivan has his warts and should no longer be the head coach of the Pittsburgh Penguins. But sometimes players just get old and sometimes players aren't just that good.

Here's the issue with so many here. They believe in the glory days and can't let go. They believe that upgrading the 4th line changes things. Incremental improvements won't do that. And Kyle is not gonna make a huge splash in buying at the deadline. He's far more likely to sell (as he should).

 

[Ryder71]

Crosby has four goals his last 25 games. Geno has three in his last 23. Chances are as the season unfolds and they get further banged up (and at their respective ages), it's unlikely they make a massive improvement there. They could, but it seems unlikely. Surely that doesn't tell the whole story, but if your two best players are sliding a little. And they're relied upon to that degree, it's not a good sign.

 

[IcedCapp]

lame conversation, bros and sises, let's instead talk about going ALL-IN and trading a ton of assets for JT Miller. Let's do it. He cements us firmly in the 9th seed.

 

[SEALBound]

I'd argue 2 things here:

1. If numerous NHL coaches have not bothered teaching Puljujarvi how to PK, what reason do we as fans believe that he can be developed into a PKer? It's not just Sullivan, it's been every single one of Puljujarvi's professional coaches that have just not bothered trying to get him to PK.
2. I'd also very easily argue that you can't teach how to play on the PP, or at least how to be a good player on the PP.

I think special teams are like 50% talent level and 50% having the specific skillsets needed for special teams. On the PK, a more talented player who can't anticipate plays well won't be a better PKer than a less talented player that anticipates plays well. On the PP, a tunnel vision player who scores really well off the rush at 5v5 won't be a better PP player than a slower but more creative/playmaking player.

A huge factor in both the PK and PP is having a high hockey IQ and anticipating plays well. I never got the vibe at all that Puljujarvi fit that. I also think that's a big reason why Kapanen was never good on the PP and his PK work was just him being a threat offensively on the PK.

Re: #1 - I guess that's my question, to an extent. If he's look at no more than a bottom 6 winger, why not at least attempt to teach him to be a pk'er? I don't think he'd have to be "as good" as Nieto at PK'ing necessarily to be a more attractive overall package. On a scale of 1-10, if Nieto was a 1 offensive and 8 PK'er but Jesse was a 3 offense and a 6-7 PK'er, would that not be more attractive? Or at least worth the occasional rotation in? To be clear, I'm not advocating for that, it's more of a "hey, isn't it odd that..." thought experiment. To further your statement though, I would be interested in a legit critique of the player (by Sullivan more specifically) as to why they wouldn't attempt to get him to PK.

Re: #2 - I agree. I think it's easier to be taught to PK than to PP. There's a demand for higher end skill and puck composure that you don't necessarily have to have on the PK. I would also suggest that you if your "specific skillset" is strong enough, it can outweigh the "talent or overall skill" requirement. Good example of that would be Hornqvist. Dude didn't have much "skill" as we define it but he was a monster netfront presence so sticking him on the PP made a lot of sense. Unless you have that, you need a higher end offensive zone hockey IQ.

Crosby has four goals his last 25 games. Geno has three in his last 23. Chances are as the season unfolds and they get further banged up (and at their respective ages), it's unlikely they make a massive improvement there. They could, but it seems unlikely. Surely that doesn't tell the whole story, but if your two best players are sliding a little. And they're relied upon to that degree, it's not a good sign.

For Sid, he's always been more of a playmaker than a scorer and this year, Rakell is bringing his A-Game on the shooting/finishing front. Rust is no slouch again as well. Last year I don't feel he ever had that solid shooter once Jake was gone so he was more apt to shoot the puck. Last year he has 278 shots. This year he's pacing for 237. So overall, he's shooting less. No shock that he's packing for 65 assists vs 52 last year. I would bet that if Rust or Rakell were hurt and he got a less capable wing, he would start shooting more and thus, start scoring more.

 

[Ryder71]

For Sid, he's always been more of a playmaker than a scorer and this year, Rakell is bringing his A-Game on the shooting/finishing front. Rust is no slouch again as well. Last year I don't feel he ever had that solid shooter once Jake was gone so he was more apt to shoot the puck. Last year he has 278 shots. This year he's pacing for 237. So overall, he's shooting less. No shock that he's packing for 65 assists vs 52 last year. I would bet that if Rust or Rakell were hurt and he got a less capable wing, he would start shooting more and thus, start scoring more.

No question he's been more of a playmaker. And his overall production has been very good for a 37 yr old. Still, I don't think it'll be near enough when considering the flaws and frailties beyond a few players on the roster.

 

[SEALBound]

No question he's been more of a playmaker. And his overall production has been very good for a 37 yr old. Still, I don't think it'll be near enough when considering the flaws and frailties beyond a few players on the roster.

I probably agree with that, barring the breakout surprise of a WBS player if given the chance.

That said, "near enough" for what? They aren't competing for the cup. If they make the playoffs, that's a bonus. If they don't, they will be where everyone had them.

 

[Ryder71]

I probably agree with that, barring the breakout surprise of a WBS player if given the chance.

That said, "near enough" for what? They aren't competing for the cup. If they make the playoffs, that's a bonus. If they don't, they will be where everyone had them.

Near enough meaning missing the playoffs. The law of diminishing returns.

I don't understand why so many clamor for mediocrity. Why do they wanna see the same coach and the same core who has done nothing going on seven years now?

 

[SEALBound]

Near enough meaning missing the playoffs. The law of diminishing returns.

I don't understand why so many clamor for mediocrity. Why do they wanna see the same coach and the same core who has done nothing going on seven years now?

No arguments from me, especially regarding Sullivan. Regarding the core, we are paying the bill for 16 years of legit cup contention. Sid and Geno are old but not gone. We need to do right by them, which is what we are doing - trying to compete now while planning and building for later.

 

[Ryder71]

No arguments from me, especially regarding Sullivan. Regarding the core, we are paying the bill for 16 years of legit cup contention. Sid and Geno are old but not gone. We need to do right by them, which is what we are doing - trying to compete now while planning and building for later.

Dubas is trying to improve around the edges and for the future. But to have a big impact it'll come through the draft or sign a big ticket free agent or a combination of the two. He's accruing good pieces but the core pieces of the future have yet to be revealed. It'll take more time, which is fine by me. But the process has started.

 

[eXile3]

I think the other factor that isn't being touched on here is what exactly has Puljujarvi shown to warrant further development to try to make a role for him on the NHL team? He's 26 years old, has hit 30 points in a season once in his career (when he spent significant time with McDavid) and has a career pace of 27 points.

I fully understand why they're trying to develop that skillset with McGroarty, it makes him a lineup mainstay even if he doesn't hit his offensive upside. But McGroarty is 21.



Yes it does, absolutely at the speeds that they play at in the NHL. Go look at how shitty Graves looks on their PK if you want to see what a bad hockey IQ does on the PK.

You can't cut off passes if you're spinning around like a top trying to follow the play. Graves regularly lets cross crease passes go through simply because he can't anticipate the play and is always a second behind mentally.

I said it takes the least amount of hockey sense when compared to other scenarios. I didn’t say a player could be completely devoid of it.

Crosby has four goals his last 25 games. Geno has three in his last 23. Chances are as the season unfolds and they get further banged up (and at their respective ages), it's unlikely they make a massive improvement there. They could, but it seems unlikely. Surely that doesn't tell the whole story, but if your two best players are sliding a little. And they're relied upon to that degree, it's not a good sign.

Both their shooting % this season are right about at their careers. I would agree that their goal counts aren’t going to improve much from the pace they’re currently on.

 

[SEALBound]

Dubas is trying to improve around the edges and for the future. But to have a big impact it'll come through the draft or sign a big ticket free agent or a combination of the two. He's accruing good pieces but the core pieces of the future have yet to be revealed. It'll take more time, which is fine by me. But the process has started.

100%. We won't get back into contention without a top 3 (likely top 1) pick. That's just the way it is. But that could come next year or 1-3 years after that. Once you get that guy, you want to be able to surround him with decent supporting players. I cringe with what Chicago has had to do with Bedard. They got him without any supporting players. They need guys from their 2019-2022 drafts to be supporting current efforts and they aren't. Not to any great extent. Thus, they have to get guys like Hall, Foligno, Bertuzzi, etc. Expensive guys who are on the cusp of being "impact" players but not really.

This why I firmly believed the best thing for the org would have been to have sucked this year, get Misa, and then suck next year and get McKenna. Last year, you can have Misa and McKenna running with Sid, Letang, Karlsson, Rust, and Rakell while guys like Koivunen, Pono, Howe, Brunicke, etc are becoming roster players (or at least some of them). These are the Armys, Christensens, Talbots, Gogos, etc that you need to adequately support your new Sid and Geno.