Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[jessb37]

My problem is not the fourth-line players but the term and dollars of contracts. Pens have almost 5 million tied up in their fourth line this season. Acciari for three years at six million? Nieto for two years? Then management complains that they don't have the cap space to make a move. Look in the mirror, fellas. A player of Acciari's skill set (or lack thereof) can be had for half his salary. Just poor fiscal management. You can say that one million here or there isn't much by NHL standards these days, but the dollars add up over the span of a full roster. Not to mention the fact that this roster sorely needs an infusion of grit, hunger and gotta-play-well-to-stay-up that young players bring -- as opposed to satisfied 30-somethings playing out the string.

 

[Ryder71]

100%. We won't get back into contention without a top 3 (likely top 1) pick. That's just the way it is. But that could come next year or 1-3 years after that. Once you get that guy, you want to be able to surround him with decent supporting players. I cringe with what Chicago has had to do with Bedard. They got him without any supporting players. They need guys from their 2019-2022 drafts to be supporting current efforts and they aren't. Not to any great extent. Thus, they have to get guys like Hall, Foligno, Bertuzzi, etc. Expensive guys who are on the cusp of being "impact" players but not really.

This why I firmly believed the best thing for the org would have been to have sucked this year, get Misa, and then suck next year and get McKenna. Last year, you can have Misa and McKenna running with Sid, Letang, Karlsson, Rust, and Rakell while guys like Koivunen, Pono, Howe, Brunicke, etc are becoming roster players (or at least some of them). These are the Armys, Christensens, Talbots, Gogos, etc that you need to adequately support your new Sid and Geno.

To add, I think McGroarty is gonna be a good player for us. He has 11 points in his last 13 games as a 20 yr old. His vision and hockey IQ will serve him well when he moves up. Skating isn't great but it's not awful either. Broz is surprising me thus far. And the biggest thing, BLOM and Murashov give me a lot of optimism more so than any young goaltending duo we've ever had. They got plenty of time but I love the possibilities with these two. That's one area we look to be extremely strong. The weak links are up here.

 

[Ryder71]

My problem is not the fourth-line players but the term and dollars of contracts. Pens have almost 5 million tied up in their fourth line this season. Acciari for three years at six million? Nieto for two years? Then management complains that they don't have the cap space to make a move. Look in the mirror, fellas. A player of Acciari's skill set (or lack thereof) can be had for half his salary. Just poor fiscal management. You can say that one million here or there isn't much by NHL standards these days, but the dollars add up over the span of a full roster. Not to mention the fact that this roster sorely needs an infusion of grit, hunger and gotta-play-well-to-stay-up that young players bring -- as opposed to satisfied 30-somethings playing out the string.

Missing the post season for a 3rd consecutive season will prompt and accelerate the necessary changes IMO. At that point what good argument could the aging core and hapless coach put forward? If there is any conflict or indecision that should end it.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I'm not one to act like PKing is some sort of special talent, but there are guys who have clawed their way to the league by killing penalties. The idea that killing penalties isn't difficult is about as valid as the idea that playing on the powerplay isn't difficult. The issue is that Sullivan is overlooking that these PKers are dogshit players otherwise while continuing to play them, and/or they're not actually good at being PKers anymore.

I'd probably argue it's easy to be an okay PKer but it's difficult to be a good PKer. If you just have "good players and figure out who to PK", your PK will most likely be bad. Either that or you'll have guys like Crosby having to kill penalties, because he'll be the best you have to do it.



I think this is basically it. Fast skaters who can forecheck well, good faceoff guys and smart positional players are basically the 3 skills you need to be a PKer. Or at least those 3 skills would make a "perfect" PKer.

If we had such a great offensive squad that Crosby was our best option on the PK, we would not be fighting for a playoff spot. We would be in Cup contention.

 

[Gurglesons]

lame conversation, bros and sises, let's instead talk about going ALL-IN and trading a ton of assets for JT Miller. Let's do it. He cements us firmly in the 9th seed.

EK65 for JT Miller. Cool.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.

Puljujarvi was available for free. Just pick up his contract off waivers. No one, not even the worst teams in the league, thought it was worth a shot.

Phil Kessel played four more seasons after leaving Pittsburgh. His last year with the Penguins was good. But his skills quickly eroded to the point where he was a healthy scratch with Vegas and no one was willing to give him a PTO the past two years.

Sullivan has his warts and should no longer be the head coach of the Pittsburgh Penguins. But sometimes players just get old and sometimes players aren't just that good.

Pierre-Olivier Joseph was acquired for free recently. Sometimes, GMs are stupid. Or they owe other GMs.

Martin St. Louis was also once upon a time acquired for a waiver fee.

Sorry, not buying it. If we had a different coach, Puljujarvi's season would have been significantly different.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Missing the post season for a 3rd consecutive season will prompt and accelerate the necessary changes IMO. At that point what good argument could the aging core and hapless coach put forward? If there is any conflict or indecision that should end it.

You are that convinced we are going to miss? I am not. We are closer to making the playoffs than missing the playoffs this time. The competition is not as strong. Teams around us are imploding.

With Mike Sullivan, it is always going to be a challenge to make the playoffs from here on out. But we can easily get in this time around. There are two things this season that were non-existent last season: the best players are all contributing more, especially Karlsson and Rakell, and we have had contributions from younger, fresher legs. They have brought energy and an influx of talent. More is needed, but it is a start.

The goaltending has to hold up, and Sullivan has to stop being a knob all the time. But we can make it in this time.

 

[SEALBound]

Pierre-Olivier Joseph was acquired for free recently. Sometimes, GMs are stupid. Or they owe other GMs.

Martin St. Louis was also once upon a time acquired for a waiver fee.

Sorry, not buying it. If we had a different coach, Puljujarvi's season would have been significantly different.

We took Hayes for their 2nd and then were willing to give it back so they could get Holloway and Broberg who are absolutely killing it for them. Not sure POJ for FC fully repays that but it's a start.

 

[Ryder71]

You are that convinced we are going to miss? I am not. We are closer to making the playoffs than missing the playoffs this time. The competition is not as strong. Teams around us are imploding.

With Mike Sullivan, it is always going to be a challenge to make the playoffs from here on out. But we can easily get in this time around. There are two things this season that were non-existent last season: the best players are all contributing more, especially Karlsson and Rakell, and we have had contributions from younger, fresher legs. They have brought energy and an influx of talent. More is needed, but it is a start.

The goaltending has to hold up, and Sullivan has to stop being a knob all the time. But we can make it in this time.

I agree that the competition in the conference is weaker. I think Pixies brought that up either at the start or prior to the season starting, he was very right! That's the only reason as to why we could possibly sneak in. That said, I don't think it's gonna happen. We're closer IMO to the 4-10-4 run than the 9-3-1 run. We should know definitively this month which way it goes.

 

[SEALBound]

I agree that the competition in the conference is weaker. I think Pixies brought that up either at the start or prior to the season starting, he was very right! That's the only reason as to why we could possibly sneak in. That said, I don't think it's gonna happen. We're closer IMO to the 4-10-4 run than the 9-3-1 run. We should know definitively this month which way it goes.

I'd rather make the playoffs and get bumped in the 1st round rather than finish 15th ov.

 

[Ryder71]

I'd rather make the playoffs and get bumped in the 1st round rather than finish 15th ov.

I'd rather finish in the bottom ten.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

My problem is not the fourth-line players but the term and dollars of contracts. Pens have almost 5 million tied up in their fourth line this season. Acciari for three years at six million? Nieto for two years? Then management complains that they don't have the cap space to make a move. Look in the mirror, fellas. A player of Acciari's skill set (or lack thereof) can be had for half his salary. Just poor fiscal management. You can say that one million here or there isn't much by NHL standards these days, but the dollars add up over the span of a full roster. Not to mention the fact that this roster sorely needs an infusion of grit, hunger and gotta-play-well-to-stay-up that young players bring -- as opposed to satisfied 30-somethings playing out the string.

A $5 million fourth line is pretty minimal in 2024-25 and I bet it's pretty comparable throughout the league.

Also, Dubas hasn't said much at all about not having cap space to make moves. His comments of late are more about building for the future.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Pierre-Olivier Joseph was acquired for free recently. Sometimes, GMs are stupid. Or they owe other GMs.

Martin St. Louis was also once upon a time acquired for a waiver fee.

Sorry, not buying it. If we had a different coach, Puljujarvi's season would have been significantly different.

POJ was likely going to be waived. The Penguins were willing to jump the line because they had a clear need with all of their injuries in the organization and they knew POJ wouldn't need time to acclimate to the system.

POJ and Puljujarvi are the same type of player, just at different positions. They're valuable when you're hurting for depth, but they don't really change the complexion of your lineup. Their only true value is when a team is really lacking depth for whatever reason.

If the Pens didn't have injuries on their defensive corps and St. Louis put POJ on waivers, he probably clears, too.

 

[Jacob]

This won’t help us now but Orlov could be a guy to target in the summer. He took a short deal with a higher hit in Carolina, maybe he’d do like 3 years $6m or something. Orlov, Pickering, Joseph down the left. Pieniniemi in line to replace Joseph maybe in a year or two.

 

[Empoleon8771]

This won’t help us now but Orlov could be a guy to target in the summer. He took a short deal with a higher hit in Carolina, maybe he’d do like 3 years $6m or something. Orlov, Pickering, Joseph down the left. Pieniniemi in line to replace Joseph maybe in a year or two.

I'd be pretty happy with this, I've mentioned Hague a few times as a guy I'd like to trade for but giving Orlov a high money, low term deal and trading him with retention later is an idea I like.

Personally I'd like to move POJ to RD and bring in a veteran LD as well, but I like Orlov and Pickering as their top-4 LD.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Zac f***ing Rinaldo was a PKer. If he can do it then anybody can.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Zac f***ing Rinaldo was a PKer. If he can do it then anybody can.

Sorry I'm a bit drunk rn and saw this post, my immediate reaction was "yeah he was a PKer but I was also a goalie and I was ass". Then I looked at my stats online and felt sad I remembered I was ass

I do have an elite prospect page at least, but I was neither elite nor a prospect.

 

[BusinessGoose]

@Empoleon8771

 

[Empoleon8771]

@Empoleon8771

See I was the expert of "getting a hand on your ass" part but the rest was lacking

My college coach described me as a "glue guy" when I mentioned to him I wasn't happy with my play time, which I interpret means I was good as the "getting a hand on your ass" part but the rest was lacking.

 

[BobCole]

You are that convinced we are going to miss? I am not. We are closer to making the playoffs than missing the playoffs this time. The competition is not as strong. Teams around us are imploding.

With Mike Sullivan, it is always going to be a challenge to make the playoffs from here on out. But we can easily get in this time around. There are two things this season that were non-existent last season: the best players are all contributing more, especially Karlsson and Rakell, and we have had contributions from younger, fresher legs. They have brought energy and an influx of talent. More is needed, but it is a start.

The goaltending has to hold up, and Sullivan has to stop being a knob all the time. But we can make it in this time.

Just for the record, we are trailing the WC2 team by a point despite them having three games in hand on us, and we are also in a three-way tie in that spot. So I can't agree with the notion that it's "easy" for us to make it. We basically have to be head and shoulders above three separate teams from here on out, which is certainly not impossible, but also not easy.

 

[Mrs Crosby's Dryer]

See I was the expert of "getting a hand on your ass" part but the rest was lacking

My college coach described me as a "glue guy" when I mentioned to him I wasn't happy with my play time, which I interpret means I was good as the "getting a hand on your ass" part but the rest was lacking.

I’d take glue guy as a valid compliment. My college coach called me “American hands” for 4 solid years, so it definitively could’ve been worse.

 

[Speaker City]

My college coach described me as a "glue guy" when I mentioned to him I wasn't happy with my play time, which I interpret means I was good as the "getting a hand on your ass" part but the rest was lacking.

I’d take glue guy as a valid compliment. My college coach called me “American hands” for 4 solid years, so it definitively could’ve been worse.

You guys are lucky. I got ghosted by a college coach when he came to see me at a tournament and I was the same height as the year before..

 

[Andy99]

No GDT yet so I’ll put this here lol…
Which is more crucial to tonight’s outcome: Florida on a b2b and Bob not playing, or the Pens hitting the sunshine and beach for the first time lol…

Team matchups​

 

[SEALBound]

My problem is not the fourth-line players but the term and dollars of contracts. Pens have almost 5 million tied up in their fourth line this season. Acciari for three years at six million? Nieto for two years? Then management complains that they don't have the cap space to make a move. Look in the mirror, fellas. A player of Acciari's skill set (or lack thereof) can be had for half his salary. Just poor fiscal management. You can say that one million here or there isn't much by NHL standards these days, but the dollars add up over the span of a full roster. Not to mention the fact that this roster sorely needs an infusion of grit, hunger and gotta-play-well-to-stay-up that young players bring -- as opposed to satisfied 30-somethings playing out the string.

This is one of those "well you're not wrong but you're also not 100% right" posts.

Hindsight is 20/20. I would be willing to be that if 2 years ago you showed Dubas a crystal ball showing the team on 1/3/25, he might forego certain moves. Which ones, who knows but I imagine there are some. That said, the money spent on the 4th line at the moment has a bit of irrelevancy given the current state of the team and the future direction. I imagine you're including Hayes in there even though he's been a HS for seemingly forever but we also got a 2nd and a 3rd to take him. Something a transitioning team should be doing. It demonstrates that there are different ways to use cap space. You can spend it on players designed to win games or you can weaponize it to accrue draft capital or other mid-level players to help in the future. I think Dubas demonstrated this well in both the Hayes and Glass trades. Frasca for Glass, Hayes, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, and a 6th is very good use of cap space. Glass is a player that can help in transition (meaning from the Sid era to the future) and Hayes can be a bottom 6 journeyman, though I argue his use is irrelevant at the end of the day. He can be a center or wing for us in several capacities. It wouldn't be sexy, but if Geno went down for a game, you could probably slot Hayes in at 2C to make due for one game.

Now, I believe your counterargument to what I just said is - well if they waste $3mil on Hayes, $2mil on Acciari, $800k on Nieto, that is $6mil they could have spent on a better player. While that is true, in a sense, I think it misses the mark a bit. To bring in a $6mil wing/center, you're also looking at a decent length. Using the recent off season, you're looking at Toffoli or DeBrusk. Toffoli got 4years and DeBrusk got 7 years. They are 32 and 28 respectively and I have two comments there: 1. There isn't a free agent out there that we should be signing for $6mil for 4+ years. You talk about poor fiscal management, I would suggest on that same point it is poor fiscal management to dedicate $24 to 38.5mil to a player who is not going to move the needle much and must be paid while your team is expected to absolutely stink (which as we all know in Pittsburgh means a decline in ticket sales and interest in the team). 2. Adding either Toffoli or DeBrusk isn't going to save this team from what ails it - an aged out core. Neither of them are core level players. They would not be the sole difference between making the playoffs or not or winning in the first round or not. So what incentive or drive is there in the FO to dedicate millions to them? Looking at the guys Dubas has collected - Hayes, Glass, Beauvillier, Puljujarvi - these are all guys that have very modest salaries on short deals.

The last part regarding guys like Lizotte, Nieto, and Acciari (and you can include Eller in there) is that, most times if you want the player in FA, you have to be willing to add the term. Now it does irk me that Acciari got 3 years. Guys like him and Nieto should be 1-2 year deals or you move on. At the same time, at the time of the signing, you're obviously going after the player because you like them and want them on the team. It's quite possible that there are other teams competing for them and to get them, you add the extra year. At $2mil vs a $87mil (soon to be $90+mil), it's practically a non-issue. The biggest issue would be "Acciari is taking a roster spot over a younger player like Ponomarov". Now that said, sometimes these guys pan out like Lizotte and sometimes they are passengers like Nieto.

The existence of these guys on the roster taking up space "preventing" us from "making moves" is not a big issue for me because in all honesty, we probably shouldn't be making the moves that I imagine you want. Dubas has been fairly shrewd in collecting young players and draft capital knowing that we need to start the transition. We shouldn't be blowing those new found assets on another bandaid. Those days are over.

No GDT yet so I’ll put this here lol…
Which is more crucial to tonight’s outcome: Florida on a b2b and Bob not playing, or the Pens hitting the sunshine and beach for the first time lol…

Team matchups​

Florida being #3 in finishing is what is going to give them the leg up on us. I just hope Jarry isn't in net...

 

[vodeni]

No GDT yet so I’ll put this here lol…
Which is more crucial to tonight’s outcome: Florida on a b2b and Bob not playing, or the Pens hitting the sunshine and beach for the first time lol…

Team matchups​

Looks like Their goalies took a year off, until tonight lol