Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[Jag68Sid87]

So based on practice today, Letang is back, Pickering STAYS in the lineup but of course we are back to Grz-Letang

It is very difficult to think anything other than Grz and Shea are from Mass. and that is why they are playing over Graves and St. Ivany. Also, the whole "Sullivan and Dubas are not on the same page" theory has more legs when you consider that Graves' value (which was already close to negative value) is sinking with every healthy scratch. Does anyone think Dubas is gung-ho about that turn of events? Because Sullivan keeps making Dubas's job that much harder with nearly every lineup decision he makes.

A reputation for putting guys in a good landing spot is going to be key for the Penguins in the offseasons to come. Pittsburgh isn't a destination you go to win anymore. They're going to need something that separates them the other smaller market bottom feeders looking to sign UFAs.

With this head coach, less is more when it comes to spending money on free agents. Go big for a Marner or go home.

I am tired of good, very good and great players stinking up the joint under Sullivan.

 

[pistolpete11]

Any chance JR knows why Graves is a healthy scratch? I heard it wasn't because of his play.

 

[eXile3]

Any chance JR knows why Graves is a healthy scratch? I heard it wasn't because of his play.

Took me a second but I got there.

 

[Empoleon8771]

So based on practice today, Letang is back, Pickering STAYS in the lineup but of course we are back to Grz-Letang

It is very difficult to think anything other than Grz and Shea are from Mass. and that is why they are playing over Graves and St. Ivany. Also, the whole "Sullivan and Dubas are not on the same page" theory has more legs when you consider that Graves' value (which was already close to negative value) is sinking with every healthy scratch. Does anyone think Dubas is gung-ho about that turn of events? Because Sullivan keeps making Dubas's job that much harder with nearly every lineup decision he makes.


With this head coach, less is more when it comes to spending money on free agents. Go big for a Marner or go home.

I am tired of good, very good and great players stinking up the joint under Sullivan.

Graves was already at significantly negative value because he sucks and has a huge contract.

Dubas made his own job hard by handing out that dogshit contract to Graves.

 

[SomeDude]

JR is a huge doofus and he managed to have a hot streak as a gm even if his moves outside of that cup run were largely terrible.

If he can do it, Dubas can do it too

As mentioned, JR wasn’t afraid to make moves knowing some of them were going to blow up in his face.

Dubas’ career he seems to be in data induced paralysis. His teams (in Toronto) had regular season success and looked good on all the pretty colorful charts and fancy stats and got caved every year when playoffs roll around. He never made those moves around his core (or heaven forbid move someone from the core to address another need) to put it together. I don’t think he has “it” - whatever it is. Intuition or balls or whatever you want to call it. He just seems like a geek over his head.

 

[dkingerski]

I don’t like Kan and think he doesn’t really know hockey, but there’s truth to this…said something similar on his podcast (it’s coming from other more knowledgeable hockey people lol)…we have a lot of low IQ players and have previously obtained a lot of those in the past (see Kapanen)….so if you’re wondering why many players play worse here than they do elsewhere, this is a decent explanation…it’s hard to find high IQ players with speed who are available for trade or aren’t overpriced in FA…so the answer is that Sullivan must change his ways lol…this is also an explanation for why Sid and G like playing for Sullivan and might not want him fired…

Analysis: Are Dubas and Sullivan on Same Page? Did Letang Throw Shade?

The Pittsburgh Penguins’ overall trajectory was always going to be down before it could go up. Such is the nature of salary cap sports run by human beings who must look forward and not make decisions with the benefit of perfect hindsight. Yet several factors are specifically crushing this...

pittsburghhockeynow.com

You flatter me, sir. --Dan Kingerski.

 

[SEALBound]

I think there's also an aspect of the quality of the trade market. Realistically, who out there is available that Dubas should be trading for?

And why are we trading for that person?

I mean, if he wants to trade Pettersson, great. But I who else on the roster do you trade out and who do you bring back that makes a difference in the grand scheme?

Fact is, JR and Dubas have very different rosters and different goals and ambitions right now.

You flatter me, sir. --Dan Kingerski.

Do you use browse HFPens for your website article ideas?

Seems like lots of Pittsburgh writers do.

 

[eXile3]

I think there's also an aspect of the quality of the trade market. Realistically, who out there is available that Dubas should be trading for?

And why are we trading for that person?

I mean, if he wants to trade Pettersson, great. But I who else on the roster do you trade out and who do you bring back that makes a difference in the grand scheme?

Fact is, JR and Dubas have very different rosters and different goals and ambitions right now.


Do you use browse HFPens for your website article ideas?

Seems like lots of Pittsburgh writers do.

The difference is JR had goals and ambitions.

The biggest problem still remains there is no direction. Not rebuilding. Not competing. What are we doing?

 

[Pancakes]

As mentioned, JR wasn’t afraid to make moves knowing some of them were going to blow up in his face.

Dubas’ career he seems to be in data induced paralysis. His teams (in Toronto) had regular season success and looked good on all the pretty colorful charts and fancy stats and got caved every year when playoffs roll around. He never made those moves around his core (or heaven forbid move someone from the core to address another need) to put it together. I don’t think he has “it” - whatever it is. Intuition or balls or whatever you want to call it. He just seems like a geek over his head.

I don't see Dubas as being afraid to make moves so far. Ek was a huge swing. So was Graves. He's made a lot of signings and trades otherwise.

Dubas has been shit. There's no debating that. However I don't think cowardice is a fault of his unless in regards to Sullivan.

 

[SEALBound]

The difference is JR had goals and ambitions.

The biggest problem still remains there is no direction. Not rebuilding. Not competing. What are we doing?

They are trying to "compete" (Read: compete for the playoffs) while building for the future.

Literally everything Dubas has done since the Jake trade has been 100% that path.

But no matter how many times it's pointed out explained, people ignore it. Is it the best path? No. Do I wish they would tank? Yes. But when you still have legacy members who gave you 15 years of cup contention, you have to pay the bill at the end. It is what it is.

 

[Khelandros]

Well except Hornqvist or Cole.

Or Matheson. Or Kessel. Or Haglin. Or Petry. Or McGinn. Or really any player brought here to play "the right way".

 

[SEALBound]

Or Matheson. Or Kessel. Or Haglin. Or Petry. Or McGinn. Or really any player brought here to play "the right way".

You mean, any player that is not Sid, Malkin, or Letang. And maybe Bryan Rust.

 

[SomeDude]

I don't see Dubas as being afraid to make moves so far. Ek was a huge swing. So was Graves. He's made a lot of signings and trades otherwise.

Dubas has been shit. There's no debating that. However I don't think cowardice is a fault of his unless in regards to Sullivan.

That could be true. Both EK and Graves were swings as far as cap space and commitment, I will give him that.

He is just really, really, bad at identifying and addressing team needs. Tavares was such an unneeded addition to Toronto just like EK here. Good players in theory, but Toronto already had enough skilled forwards and we already had Letang as our supposed elite offensive D-man. That cap space could have been much better allocated in both circumstances.

 

[Pancakes]

That could be true. Both EK and Graves were swings as far as cap space and commitment, I will give him that.

He is just really, really, bad at identifying and addressing team needs. Tavares was such an unneeded addition to Toronto just like EK here. Good players in theory, but Toronto already had enough skilled forwards and we already had Letang as our supposed elite offensive D-man. That cap space could have been much better allocated in both circumstances.

I said earlier in one of these threads but I have a big issue with the Graves signing in particular because it's clear the Pens didn't do their homework with him. Graves talked last year about how the Devils ran a system where the forwards come deeper into the zone and they do short passes to start their breakout. He said adjusting to the Pens was a struggle because the Pens like to stretch the play out more and there's less in-zone forward support on the breakout.

This is something that Dubas and his scouts should have seen coming ahead of time. Who looks at a mixtape of Ryan Graves (or god forbid watches him in person) and thinks that this is a player who can consistently execute stretch passes and quickly transition the puck up the ice? That's not Ryan Grave's skillset.

As far as EK I agree that he was not necessarily a need when Dubas got him but I think the deal made sense to do at the time given all the crap Dubas was able to punt off the team to acquire EK. That it hasn't worked out is an indictment more on Sullivan than Dubas imo.

I suspect Dubas will make some more big moves in the next year or two while ignoring the big one that he really ought to make (replacing Sullivan).

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

They are trying to "compete" (Read: compete for the playoffs) while building for the future.

Literally everything Dubas has done since the Jake trade has been 100% that path.

But no matter how many times it's pointed out explained, people ignore it. Is it the best path? No. Do I wish they would tank? Yes. But when you still have legacy members who gave you 15 years of cup contention, you have to pay the bill at the end. It is what it is.

My issue is they're not really doing that. No organization that is serious about competing for the playoffs would go into the season with Matt Grzelcyk as one of their top 4 D, nor assume that DOC would be more than fine as the top line LW. Rightly or wrongly, if they were truly trying to give Sid/Geno one last kick at it, then they needed to add actual impact guys up front and on D and not just add more cannon fodder bottom six forwards/#6/7 level defensemen.

That's why any words about competing are bullshit because none of their moves are geared toward an actual playoff caliber roster.

 

[The Old Master]

Sullivan's system requires a high IQ and higher-than-average skating to be effective while also giving star players the latitude they need to be star players. It's a very loose structure that depends on individuals all recognizing the same play and responding accordingly.

didn't we just trade a very good skater (yager) for a guy that's biggest weakness is........wait for it...........skating? (McGoats)

 

[cygnus47]

There's a big dumb thing that we've done for ages every off-season. That being that they think it's a massive issue if there are any "holes" in the lineup, so they fill them with whoever is the best veteran they can find to fill it. Before Sid and Geno got old, it was fairly normal for us to come into a season not having a certain position filled and leaving it to be competed for by internal rookies etc. or just leaving it as soimething that needed to be addressed. Now we never leave gaps to create competition and we consistently get crap UFAs because most of the time the ideal player isn't available in UFA.

The Graves/Grzelcyk/Jarry situations are the perfect example. We "needed" a starter and top 4 D and they were the veterans available for cash only. And now we're in the situation where if we'd just not signed them and left the gaps, accepting that goalie and top 4 D would be sub-par positions for us until someone stepped up, we'd have an extra 12 million in cap space and if anything have a better roster for it, plus competition for ice time to get our team motivated.

Between Sully and refusing to leave any reason for our youth to get excited, we've killed the teams motivation to play for each other.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

didn't we just trade a very good skater (yager) for a guy that's biggest weakness is........wait for it...........skating? (McGoats)

The hope is Sullivan won't be here when it's relevant for McGroarty. He's not NHL ready, under any coach.

 

[Gurglesons]

didn't we just trade a very good skater (yager) for a guy that's biggest weakness is........wait for it...........skating? (McGoats)

Calling Yager a "very good skater" is odd considering skating was one of his issues too.

 

[The Old Master]

Calling Yager a "very good skater" is odd considering skating was one of his issues too.

only by those that didn't bother to watch him. imo

 

[SEALBound]

My issue is they're not really doing that. No organization that is serious about competing for the playoffs would go into the season with Matt Grzelcyk as one of their top 4 D, nor assume that DOC would be more than fine as the top line LW. Rightly or wrongly, if they were truly trying to give Sid/Geno one last kick at it, then they needed to add actual impact guys up front and on D and not just add more cannon fodder bottom six forwards/#6/7 level defensemen.

That's why any words about competing are bullshit because none of their moves are geared toward an actual playoff caliber roster.

I get what you're saying but at the same time, to get someone better than either of the examples you mentioned you have to commit money and term, something they clearly didn't want to do.

The hope was likely that bolstering depth and scoring on a couple low-cost options would be good enough. Turns out it wasn't. Thems the breaks. But even though that failed, it doesn't mean that wasn't the plan.

Would we better off with DeBrusk or Teravainen instead of DOC? What about OEL or Zadorov for LD? And if we are in the same place we are in now, would we be bemoaning the cap hit and term Dubas handed each? Or do we feel better we can waive bye to DOC/Beau/Gryz at the end of the year?

didn't we just trade a very good skater (yager) for a guy that's biggest weakness is........wait for it...........skating? (McGoats)

Not that he was a bad skater per say but I wouldn't suggest that skating was a major asset for Yager. He had IQ and a hell of a shot.

 

[The Old Master]

Not that he was a bad skater per say but I wouldn't suggest that skating was a major asset for Yager. He had IQ and a hell of a shot.

it was more of when trying to rank players you start to look at them through a microscope and blowing up something small into much more than it is. and his skating would improve with him getting stronger. but to say it was mechanics or other flaws just doesn't hold up. it's like say'en a guy that runs a 4-2 forty is slow because he can't run a 4-1 forty

 

[BusinessGoose]

They only thing we committed money and term to was frigging mike o'toolbag sullivan

 

[Malkinstheman]

Even with their terrible start and play, the Pens are somehow only 1 point out of the WC2 spot. I am fully expecting them to actually string together 3-4 wins at some point and get the 12th overall pick. This season is gonna be a huge 0 for winning and for tanking

 

[dkingerski]

I think there's also an aspect of the quality of the trade market. Realistically, who out there is available that Dubas should be trading for?

And why are we trading for that person?

I mean, if he wants to trade Pettersson, great. But I who else on the roster do you trade out and who do you bring back that makes a difference in the grand scheme?

Fact is, JR and Dubas have very different rosters and different goals and ambitions right now.


Do you use browse HFPens for your website article ideas?

Seems like lots of Pittsburgh writers do.

I don't, sorry. I saw that our article was posted, so I put on my big boy pants to see what you all were saying.