Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[Empoleon8771]

But for my money, and from my vantage point, the rest of the soup has the same ingredients. Which isn't unusual. Look at a guy like Laviolette, or Tortorella, or even Guy Boucher back in the day. They have "their system." They are unlikely to change "their system." Either team deploys "their system" better, or they get fired. Because buying a coach in the NHL is essentially buying "their system" for better or worse.

Yeah and I think this is how by far most coaches work. It's just that most teams realize when a system isn't working anymore and they'll bring in a new coach to implement a new system.

The Penguins just aren't most teams, they just won't fire Sullivan.

 

[SomeDude]

Because Dubas continues to look like a moron for signing Jarry. You cant justify that deal when he is buried in the AHL.

I know, i inow. DUbAs hAd nO OtHer OptiOns! (Let him walk?)

Get on your broom and head back to Canada, Harry Potter.

To add to that, bringing Ned back also was useless. We’re stuck with Jarry now. Ned is a decent goalie but now he’s blocking Blomqvist for the next 2 years which is forcing Murashov to be banished to Wheeling.

 

[pistolpete11]

Other coaches constantly get asked the question about adjustments and have no issue giving a general description of what they did to adjust to what the opposition is doing. Things like, "they were taking away our stretch pass, so we had to do this" or "they were sending two guys in on the forecheck, so we made sure we had this as support" type stuff.

Sullivan not explaining adjustments is a valid criticism since it's something that ALL coaches are asked about, especially after a bad period or stretch of play. Because it speaks to the man's lack of ability to explain why his team can't seem to alter its game when whatever the original game plan they had isn't working.

As I said before, there's ways to answer without being an arrogant prick about it, but that's not what people are upset about. They are upset that they are losing, have been losing for too long, and they place a lot of that blame at Sullivan's feet. Trust me, I'm one of those people.

But think about it. If they were winning and Sullivan didn't answer questions, you think anybody would give 2 shits? Of course not. Similarly, if he explained what they were doing, but still lost out on the ice, are people going to say "Aw shucks another loss, but at least Sully explained the gameplan to the media!" No.

As they say, winning cures all.

 

[pistolpete11]

I think the staff made adjustments this season, but not to the 5 on 5 product.

The power-play is discernible different year over year.

The forecheck is the same. 1-2-2 with a swing up front and the expectation of constant pressure. Weak side D pinching is still something that happens even in low percentage situations. The defensive zone scheme is a puck-side overload but somehow twice as worse as last season.

So, the answer is yes and no to me. Did he change the power-play? Yes. Now, maybe that was Quinn. I have no idea.

But for my money, and from my vantage point, the rest of the soup has the same ingredients. Which isn't unusual. Look at a guy like Laviolette, or Tortorella, or even Guy Boucher back in the day. They have "their system." They are unlikely to change "their system." Either team deploys "their system" better, or they get fired. Because buying a coach in the NHL is essentially buying "their system" for better or worse.

NHL coaches do not run around from week to week or team to team and fundamentally make wholesale changes to their style of play on the fly. That is about the rarest thing you can see in the NHL. Sullivan made big changes during the Cup runs situationally, but that seems to have stopped.

I wrote a piece last year in December about how Sullivan had been deploying a deeper 1-2-2 without the swing and the heavy forecheck but that only stuck around a few times and we never saw it again, but it was so stark I highly doubt it was unintentional.

At the risk of 'defending' Sullivan again, they were pretty good at 5-on-5 last year IIRC. So it's reasonable for them to come to the conclusion that they don't need to make drastic changes 5-on-5 going into the season.

I think what you're describing with coaches having 'their system' is largely true, but it's also incredibly frustrating. Especially for a coach who once upon a time DID drastically change his system mid-season and have the ultimate success with it. Why would he be so unwillingly to try something?

At this point, even ignoring the roster issues, I'm not sure that he can recover. I think the players have tuned him out. They need a drastic shake up and I don't know that trading Lars Eller is going to suffice.

 

[Empoleon8771]

At the risk of 'defending' Sullivan again, they were pretty good at 5-on-5 last year IIRC. So it's reasonable for them to come to the conclusion that they don't need to make drastic changes 5-on-5 going into the season.

I think what you're describing with coaches having 'their system' is largely true, but it's also incredibly frustrating. Especially for a coach who once upon a time DID drastically change his system mid-season and have the ultimate success with it. Why would he be so unwillingly to try something?

At this point, even ignoring the roster issues, I'm not sure that he can recover. I think the players have tuned him out. They need a drastic shake up and I don't know that trading Lars Eller is going to suffice.

I don't even think the idea is "frustrating", to be honest. It's frustrating because this team is stupid and won't fire Sullivan. It's totally fine and normal that Sullivan has his own ideal system that he wants to run, it's the organization's responsibility to realize that this system isn't meshing with the team and bringing in a new coach that does mesh with the team.

Don't ask coaches to change their system, change the coaches to one that has the system you want.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

At the risk of 'defending' Sullivan again, they were pretty good at 5-on-5 last year IIRC. So it's reasonable for them to come to the conclusion that they don't need to make drastic changes 5-on-5 going into the season.

They were good at 5 on 5 last year, but they also had Jake for a significant chunk of that. He and Sid allowed L1 to be "functional". Not great, but passable.

This year, Crosby is playing space cadet and Sully is moving heaven and earth to cater to him like always. And that meant moving L2's best player and line driver (Malkin) to L1 in order to make it somewhat functional.

So it's robbing Peter to pay Paul. And Paul (L1) barely looks like he could afford a Big Mac meal.

L2 to L4 is a bunch of goobers skating around hoping nothing bad happens to them. But when you have absolute trash of a defense behind whatever line you throw out there, everything is bad regardless of the trio up front.

If this group has any want to be a semi-competitive team then they have to fix the back end*. When Graves is consistently your best defender that should raise significant alarm bells. But for some reason Sullivan gives his defense the green light no matter what the score or situation bc he's absolutely quit on this team. So you've got guys pinching and if you're a F are you gonna bust your ass coming back to cover? There's a ton of quiet quitting going on and Lars Eller was the only dude who called people out. So of course he gets shown the door bc we can't have accountability in this lockerroom.

*Please don't anyone clap back at me whether they SHOULD be competitive this year, tanking, etc. I'm merely pointing out the play this year. Nothing about the future, draft picks, draft order etc. Thank you.

 

[Victor Z]

Why send your best goalie to AHL?

Why indeed? And why have our 2nd best goalie stuck in freakin' Wheeling?

 

[eXile3]

Why indeed? And why have our 2nd best goalie stuck in freakin' Wheeling?

Because they made the mistake of signing Jarry and weak leaders refuse to acknowledge their mistakes.

 

[pistolpete11]

I don't even think the idea is "frustrating", to be honest. It's frustrating because this team is stupid and won't fire Sullivan. It's totally fine and normal that Sullivan has his own ideal system that he wants to run, it's the organization's responsibility to realize that this system isn't meshing with the team and bringing in a new coach that does mesh with the team.

Don't ask coaches to change their system, change the coaches to one that has the system you want.

If a coach is unwilling...or unable to...change their system that isn't working, of course. Get rid of him.

But why should a coach not be willing to change their system? Other than maybe being stubborn, arrogant asses being personality traits that fit the job well, but again Sullivan did do it once. Why would he not remember that and try something different again?

They were good at 5 on 5 last year, but they also had Jake for a significant chunk of that. He and Sid allowed L1 to be "functional". Not great, but passable.

Fair point, but weren't they also really good down the stretch? Not sure what the stats say, but they at least won a lot of games.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If a coach is unwilling...or unable to...change their system that isn't working, of course. Get rid of him.

But why should a coach not be willing to change their system? Other than maybe being stubborn, arrogant asses being personality traits that fit the job well, but again Sullivan did do it once. Why would he not remember that and try something different again?


Fair point, but weren't they also really good down the stretch? Not sure what the stats say, but they at least won a lot of games.

Depends on what you mean by "change" there. I think a lot of coaches have spent their entire careers refining one specific play style or system, and jumping to a drastically different system that fits the roster better would be extremely challenging to implement and would require a lot of trial and error.

Coaches should always be evolving and modifying their strategies and systems based on how the league is changing, but if it turns into a point where a coach's system is just a bad fit for the team, the solution there is to replace the coach, not keep the coach and replace the system.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

On the goaltending front, I think you HAVE to send Blomqvist down now if you cannot or refuse to trade a veteran. It makes no sense for Murashov to be in the ECHL AND Blomqvist to be the backup at the NHL level. Both should be playing. Ideally, Blomqvist is sharing the load in the NHL right now and Murashov is playing at least half the time in the AHL. But we have the two veterans, so this is the next-best plan imo.

I never had an issue with the Jarry re-signing originally, and I have said as much. When it did not work out, however, you HAD to move on. But we did not. AND we doubled down on the madness by bringing back Ned. I like Ned, but Blomqvist should be at least playing in a 1A/1B situation right now. Sure, MOST goaltenders arrived a few years later than Blomqvist's current age, but he does feel like the exception to the rule. Anyway, this one isn't even a Sullivan thing because it seems the coach could care less about which goaltender is in the net, he just goes with the guy who won the last game, basically. Dubas, trade Jarry or Ned please. Find a deal that does not wreak and move on.


About the coaching systems thing, perhaps the most frustrating thing about Sullivan's system is the whole "north-south game" thing. This is probably why he hated Kessel, and probably why so many of our European players struggle. Sullivan seems to tolerate Malkin but only Malkin. I truly believe this is at the root of Karlsson's struggles (I focus more on his point production because he has always been a net positive, despite mediocre defense). A good coach maximizes output from his players, ESPECIALLY his best players. But if you do not allow for players to play their game, many of whom are more east-west types, then you get what we currently have now. How many times do you see our guys on an odd-man rush, or at least the start of an odd-man rush, only to have the player dump the puck in?

Sullivan wants robots, not hockey players.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

What incentive does Sullivan have to actually like, bust his ass and evolve and adapt anymore? He's got infinite job security despite being a failure for nearly a decade. He's never given shit or asked tough questions by local sports journalists. The FO and ownership constantly worship the ground the guy walks on in embarrassing, public fashion any chance they get. /shrug

Dude comes to the rink, does his zombie autopilot shit, changes nothing about his approach to coaching (let alone development), collects his check and that's that. Of course he's the same as he was in 2019 when Trotz's Isles forecheck had him completely clueless and exposed his issues as a coach.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Yup. Not gonna be hungry when there's an all you can eat platter sitting there for your whenever you want

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Depends on what you mean by "change" there. I think a lot of coaches have spent their entire careers refining one specific play style or system, and jumping to a drastically different system that fits the roster better would be extremely challenging to implement and would require a lot of trial and error.

Coaches should always be evolving and modifying their strategies and systems based on how the league is changing, but if it turns into a point where a coach's system is just a bad fit for the team, the solution there is to replace the coach, not keep the coach and replace the system.

You're right. However, even a neanderthal like John Tortorella is a much different coach today than he was in Tampa Bay. In TB, the mantra was safe is death. His Lightning were among the best offensive teams in the NHL. You certainly cannot say that the Tortorella Blue Jackets were that style of team, though. AND, he used to be far more about veteran players. He still is to some degree, but he is now a HC overseeing a rebuild. He is nowhere near good at it, and there are thousands of better options for Philly, but still.

Laviolette is similar. His Carolina Hurricanes were a four-line offensive juggernaut. His Predators were far more defensive. He had an amazing blueline, so it made sense. Sure, his general system might be similar but it yields different results based on the talent.

With Sullivan, the winger is expected to dump the puck in and go chase it...regardless of whether the name of the winger is Phil Kessel, Ryan Reaves, Drew O'Connor or Valtteri Puustinen. And that's a problem IMHO.

 

[pistolpete11]

Depends on what you mean by "change" there. I think a lot of coaches have spent their entire careers refining one specific play style or system, and jumping to a drastically different system that fits the roster better would be extremely challenging to implement and would require a lot of trial and error.

Coaches should always be evolving and modifying their strategies and systems based on how the league is changing, but if it turns into a point where a coach's system is just a bad fit for the team, the solution there is to replace the coach, not keep the coach and replace the system.

But he did it once AND WON THE STANLEY CUP. How hard could it really be?

But again, it doesn't matter. Even if he woke up this morning and decided to change everything, are the players listening? Doesn't seem like it to me. Not the ones that really matter anyway.

 

[The Old Master]

No one stated game plan. They asked him to discuss any adjustments. This isn't baseball or football where these are supremely hidden tactics. Teams know what the other is doing and the x factor is the roster that allows them to do it.

So none of this is a f***ing mystery a dipshit like Sullivan is keeping close to his vest. Hockey systems are not super difficult. What is, is when you're asked to explain adjustments when you see absolutely none on the on ice product.

his might be and that's why it doesn't work. love ya sully

 

[KrisLetAngry]

To add to that, bringing Ned back also was useless. We’re stuck with Jarry now. Ned is a decent goalie but now he’s blocking Blomqvist for the next 2 years which is forcing Murashov to be banished to Wheeling.

Jarry and a rookie goalie would be a big time mess.

We know Blom is ready to play in the NHL now Awesome!

We have someone in case of injury or once Ned gets traded this season or in the off season.

 

[The Old Master]

What incentive does Sullivan have to actually like, bust his ass and evolve and adapt anymore? He's got infinite job security despite being a failure for nearly a decade. He's never given shit or asked tough questions by local sports journalists. The FO and ownership constantly worship the ground the guy walks on in embarrassing, public fashion any chance they get. /shrug

pride! that should be all you need.

 

[canadianguy77]

You look at Nashvilles problems and you look at our teams problems, and they’re basically the same problems.

Hint: The problems are mostly due a lack of explosiveness.

 

[Pancakes]

Kyle Dubas: "We're not punting on the season. We're still trying to be competitive."

Also Kyle Dubas:

- Sends down his best goalie to WBS

- Won't fire Sullivan

- Trades Lars Eller for purely futures


When we gonna admit we're just tanking, Kyle?

 

[canadianguy77]

Kyle Dubas: "We're not punting on the season. We're still trying to be competitive."

Also Kyle Dubas:

- Sends down his best goalie to WBS

- Won't fire Sullivan

- Trades Lars Eller for purely futures


When we gonna admit we're just tanking, Kyle?

He may have finally realized that they’re so bad that they can finish bottom 3 without having to sell anyone else off. I guess it’s a little bit freeing. He can sit and wait and get top prices.

 

[The Old Master]

Kyle Dubas: "We're not punting on the season. We're still trying to be competitive."

Also Kyle Dubas:

- Sends down his best goalie to WBS

- Won't fire Sullivan

- Trades Lars Eller for purely futures


When we gonna admit we're just tanking, Kyle?

from what we see, does he really need to say anything?

 

[Gurglesons]

He may have finally realized that they’re so bad that they can finish bottom 3 without having to sell anyone else off. I guess it’s a little bit freeing. He can sit and wait and get top prices.

Considering he's POHO and his team his absolutely getting cratered by attendance numbers, I'm not sure he's particularly stoked right now.

 

[Pancakes]

He may have finally realized that they’re so bad that they can finish bottom 3 without having to sell anyone else off. I guess it’s a little bit freeing. He can sit and wait and get top prices.

He didn't wait with Eller.

Considering he's POHO and his team his absolutely getting cratered by attendance numbers, I'm not sure he's particularly stoked right now.

I wonder how much uglier it will get. I don't see things getting better with Sullivan behind the bench. The second half of the season might have some really ugly attendance numbers when fans realize there's no chance at the playoffs.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Last night while watching the WBS game there was something about Pono's skating that caught my eye. Very much not a technical description, but you ever see those videos of a chicken being picked up and no matter how you move it its head remains stable? That's what he reminded me of.

He should be nicknamed Gimbal.