Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[CheckingLineCenter]

Floaty Sid is maybe the only thing that could get Sully fired… sooooo maybe it’s a net win?

 

[Pancakes]

f*** having a chance, this team's cooked, charred, thrown away, and rotting at the landfill. Put 'em together so they can do cool shit and hopefully rack up some points because that's the only thing to watch for anymore after years of mismanagement and terrible coaching have ruined things beyond repair.

I mean they probably don't have a chance. But play to win and all that. Try to give yourself the best chance even if you think you have very little chance. This is one of the last options Mike Sullivan has to try.

The Penguins themselves have more options (firing Sullivan) but that seems off the table.

At this point, as long as the organization insists on keeping Sullivan, I'm just hoping to see Sid and Geno put up points. So if them playing together means 1 or 2 points for each guy, even if it still results in the Pens losing, oh well.

Fire Sullivan and I'll start caring about team results again. Until then I'm here for Sid and Geno's rise in the all-time career rankings.

Yeah hopefully they can at least have some fun together. I'm sure that's part of the idea that Mike Sullivan has tbh. I'm sure even he is aware of how miserable Sid looks on the ice with nobody to play with.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

It’s just crazy the lengths people go to attack Dubas. I get it with Sullivan, he has a long established track record. Dubas hasn’t even been here for two years, and we are starting to see the prospect pipeline rebuild, along with swapping the cap space taken up by several inconsequential players to get Erik Karlsson.

 

[Empoleon8771]

But the Matheson, Marino, and McCann deals followed this same thought process?

We got prospects like Hallander, Poehling, and Smith back along with picks.

Shouldn't Guentzel's lack of return kind of explain why we got so very little for Marino and McCann considering the seasons they were coming off of?

People act like Marino was a top pairing D. He had just gotten rocked on the tying goal in G7 in front of everyone.

No they didn't. Those deals were either Hextall being stupid (McCann trade) or Hextall trying to change the complexion of the defense to make it bigger and more physical (Marino and Matheson). He got older, slower and worse with those trades. Had he not made any of those trades, the Penguins today would both be better while also having more assets to help the rebuild.

He traded Marino for Smith who had been declining for years. He traded Matheson for Petry and Poehling, where Petry was old and already declining (to the point where he was a cap dump a year later). None of those trades were at all comparable to the Guentzel deal.

McCann was ED bait. Also, who was the GM again that then exposed McCann and lost him for nothing after paying up Hallander and a 7th?

Dubas traded Hallander so that he wouldn't lose anyone off his roster in the expansion draft. The point of that trade from Dubas was so he'd lose Hallander in the expansion draft, which is exactly how it ended up playing out.

Hextall decided to protect Jeff Carter in the expansion draft over McCann.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Got some bad news for you.

Also funny how this same logic isn't applied to Erik Karlsson who we paid a top 15 1st and a 2nd to acquire.

Rust already takes up that spot on the Pens (ie. empty calorie scorer who wouldn't produce close to his totals on a good team).

 

[SEALBound]

We are all in agreement that Sullivan has to go, so we are just moving the goal posts as far as when we SHOULD have done it previously.

And yes I agree that firing the head coach is not going to suddenly turn this team into a playoff contender. But part of the Sullivan issue is that I believe there are some players here that are here only because of him. I don't think Kevin Hayes would be a Penguin were it not for Mike Sullivan. Now to be fair, Sullivan is playing him in the right spot and Hayes is nowhere near our biggest problem right now. Grz would not be a Penguin were it not for Mike Sullivan. Again, my opinion. And P-O Joseph was never as bad as people here made him out to be, and it was clear Sullivan never liked him and really hurt the player's confidence. And that is something he has done with others.

Yes, Dubas needs to absolutely look into moving out some contracts if at all possible, starting obviously with Jarry.

BUT, how much better would guys like Puljujarvi, Puustinen, Poulin, McGroarty, Pickering et al would be if Mike Sullivan were not here?

What this organization needs more than anything else is to start over behind the bench with an entirely new staff. And bring up the guys I mentioned above and let them play. And play the guys who are here like the Finnish Ps and give them more ice time. AND, we need the four veteran stars (Rust is not a star) to suck it up, be leaders and embrace change. They have been comfortable for far too long that they have forgotten what it was like to embrace the change that came with other big decisions earlier in their careers.

But there are still zero signs that a firing is even remotely on the table. AND, what is even worse is that even if FSG would for some reason decide that a change is needed, all they would do is replace Sullivan with Quinn. And they we'd be really effed.

Agreed, there are guys here 100% because Sullivan wanted them here. I believe that's why we got Eller, Acciari, and Harkins year. Sullivan got the type of players he wanted to play the system/style/structure he wanted. And, to no ones surprise, it faultered. Hayes is here Sullivan liked him AND we got paid to take him. That was win-win.

How do we know about Gryz though? Is there something legit or is it a strung-out series of assumptions like "well he was on boston, sullivan is from Boston, his son-in-law was on Boston, thus, we signed him"? I wasn't a fan of the signing but it was only 1 year so whatever. I was legit pissed they let POJ go but that may have been more POJ overestimating his market value and maybe even his ability. He's the ideal 3LW for us IMHO and he could have done more potentially. He looked okay as Letang's partner several times (of course the with the occasional gaf here and there). How much of that plays into how much Sullivan did or did not like him? Would Sullivan put him there with Letang if he didn't "like" him? Given it was over Dumo, Petts, and Graves, I have my doubts.

Those other guys, who knows. I don't think Poulin, McGroarty or Pickering would any better or worse off. Poulin's issues are Poulin, not Sullivan. The others are two are debatable. Is your contention that, if a new coach came in, they would be nice to Jesse and Puusty and that would make them happy and play better on the 3rd or 4th line? Or are you saying a new coach would come in and play them over...Rakell? Rust? DOC? And that would make everything better? I think if either of them got top 6 linemates and top 6 playing time, we'd see the natural increase in production that comes with that. We might have to hope for injuries or trades on that front before hoping for a new coach.

I guess it's worth nothing that a significant amount of what is wrong with the team is Sullivan and that nothing changes unless they fire him. Everything else not solely focused on that is a discussion of secondary problems.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Granlund didn't fit largely because of the coach's usage of him.

Who would have thought that a small, offensive player would struggle when put in a defensive shutdown role?

Granlund didn't fit here because he sucks. He's an empty calorie point producer that just produces while playing big minutes on bad teams.

 

[Malkinstheman]

At this point, as long as the organization insists on keeping Sullivan, I'm just hoping to see Sid and Geno put up points. So if them playing together means 1 or 2 points for each guy, even if it still results in the Pens losing, oh well.

Fire Sullivan and I'll start caring about team results again. Until then I'm here for Sid and Geno's rise in the all-time career rankings.

Tbh I'm about ready to check out for a while. Geno's done his milestones for a while and Sids probably gonna take till the trade deadline to get 7 goals at this rate. Its legit a chore watching them nowadays

 

[Gurglesons]

Granlund didn't fit here because he sucks. He's an empty calorie point producer that just produces while playing big minutes on bad teams.

WHOOPSIES!!!!

 

[Pens x]

Anhh yes, we are bickering about which GM is dumber. Why cant we all agree that Hextall and Dubas were/are awful?

 

[Gurglesons]

No they didn't. Those deals were either Hextall being stupid (McCann trade) or Hextall trying to change the complexion of the defense to make it bigger and more physical (Marino and Matheson). He got older, slower and worse with those trades. Had he not made any of those trades, the Penguins today would both be better while also having more assets to help the rebuild.

He traded Marino for Smith who had been declining for years. He traded Matheson for Petry and Poehling, where Petry was old and already declining (to the point where he was a cap dump a year later). None of those trades were at all comparable to the Guentzel deal.



Dubas traded Hallander so that he wouldn't lose anyone off his roster in the expansion draft. The point of that trade from Dubas was so he'd lose Hallander in the expansion draft, which is exactly how it ended up playing out.

Hextall decided to protect Jeff Carter in the expansion draft over McCann.

Ty Smith had been declining for years...

Went from 7th in Calder votes to declining for years...

It's so silly arguing with you people. No perspective at all outside the one that means Hextall is at fault for everything and Dubas still has potential.

Anhh yes, we are bickering about which GM is dumber. Why cant we all agree that Hextall and Dubas were/are awful?

I do agree with that..

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Anhh yes, we are bickering about which GM is dumber. Why cant we all agree that Hextall and Dubas were/are awful?

It's beginning to really look like the team replaced one ineffectual goof with another one. Just for different reasons.

 

[Empoleon8771]

To clarify, I don't even think the Guentzel trade was anything worthwhile either. He targeted quantity over quality and got 2 B level prospects and a 2nd rather than a B level prospect and a 1st. The fact that Brunicke looks like a terrific pick with that 2nd may bail him out, but it was still a pretty middling trade. It also doesn't help that he probably sunk value in that deal by insisting on getting back Bunting, when you can get a Bunting caliber guy in UFA pretty easily.

That being said, I just fundamentally have no clue how you can rally against the Guentzel trade being this horrible deal while casting aside the Marino, Matheson and McCann deals as no issue. Had they simply not made those trades, I think all of these would be true:

1. They never would have traded the 1st for Karlsson, since their 2nd pair would be Matheson-Marino and they wouldn't need to add a puck mover to help out the defense.
2. They would have a 30-30 winger in McCann on Malkin's LW, that could be traded for a strong return because he's in his prime.
3. They'd have a solid 2nd pair with 2 more guys you could turn into good value.

But instead, they got a grand total of nothing from Marino, Matheson and McCann, which led Dubas to cleaning up Hextall's mess and trading a 1st to get Karlsson (which ended up another failure) and now this team has no assets to trade while also losing a 1st to be in the position it is in.

View attachment 922861


WHOOPSIES!!!!

View attachment 922862

If you think I'm one to defend Karlsson at this point, I don't know what to tell you.

I literally said that I agree that the Karlsson trade ended up one of the worst trades in the Crosby era.

 

[SEALBound]

He got divorced from his wife the same month he was traded to PIT. But don't worry. Ron Hextall is a MORON and everything about the Penguins is HIS FAULT.

EMMI IIDA on Instagram: "Hi, I’m Emmi I’m a mom of two boys who are 2 and 4 I’m an interior architect and designer by training but have been working as a visual artist, creative freelancer and model for the past decade I’m from Finland but used t

410 likes, 24 comments - emmi.granlund on January 16, 2024: "Hi, I’m Emmi I’m a mom of two boys who are 2 and 4 I’m an interior architect and designer by training but have been working as a visual artist, creative freelancer and model for the past decade I’m from Finland but used to live in...

www.instagram.com

Uuden rakkauden löytänyt Emmi Granlund kertoo, mihin liitto Mikael Granlundin kanssa päättyi – eroon liittyi ilkeä huhu

Emmi Granlundin ja kiekkotähti Mikael Granlundin avioliitto päättyi eroon pitkän harkinnan jälkeen. Nyt Emmi Granlund elää omannäköistään elämää uuden kumppaninsa kanssa.

www.is.fi

This does NOT help your case. If the guy was in the middle of a divorce - something that any reasonable person would say might take up quite a bit of your attention - then why in the good god damn f*** would you trade for him!? And pay a 2nd no less.

Yes. Hextall was a moron to do this trade. Even MORE SO than what he was before you made his post.

Jeez, is there anyone around the league suffering from depression or had a family member just die! Let's go get them!

 

[Fiji Water]

I know Rust is missing, but stacking Crosby and Malkin on the same line and then looking at the rest of the lines shows you just how bad of a job our last 3 GMs have done. How Crosby and Malkin won 3 cups with such incompetence from the FO year after year is a miracle

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I know Rust is missing, but stacking Crosby and Malkin on the same line and then looking at the rest of the lines shows you just how bad of a job our last 3 GMs have done. How Crosby and Malkin won 3 cups with such incompetence from the FO year after year is a miracle

"Depth"

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It's cool that we're gonna get to watch the final *DECADE* of Crosby and Geno's careers go to shit because of awful ownership, awful FO decision makers, and an awful coach.

And things are so dysfunctional and stupid that we're at each others' throats over which piece of the shit puzzle smells the worst.

-edit- Thought about adding Letang. Realized I don't give a shit about Letang.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Granlund didn't fit here because he sucks. He's an empty calorie point producer that just produces while playing big minutes on bad teams.

I mean, he's a supporting offensive guy who should have been in an offensive role, not being used in the Nick Bonino/Jordan Staal role.

Regardless of how good he actually is, his usage is a prime example of just how f***ing stupid Sullivan is about using players in a role that plays to their strengths.

 

[Gurglesons]

To clarify, I don't even think the Guentzel trade was anything worthwhile either. He targeted quantity over quality and got 2 B level prospects and a 2nd rather than a B level prospect and a 1st. The fact that Brunicke looks like a terrific pick with that 2nd may bail him out, but it was still a pretty middling trade. It also doesn't help that he probably sunk value in that deal by insisting on getting back Bunting, when you can get a Bunting caliber guy in UFA pretty easily.

That being said, I just fundamentally have no clue how you can rally against the Guentzel trade being this horrible deal while casting aside the Marino, Matheson and McCann deals as no issue. Had they simply not made those trades, I think all of these would be true:

1. They never would have traded the 1st for Karlsson, since their 2nd pair would be Matheson-Marino and they wouldn't need to add a puck mover to help out the defense.
2. They would have a 30-30 winger in McCann on Malkin's LW, that could be traded for a strong return because he's in his prime.
3. They'd have a solid 2nd pair with 2 more guys you could turn into good value.

But instead, they got a grand total of nothing from Marino, Matheson and McCann, which led Dubas to cleaning up Hextall's mess and trading a 1st to get Karlsson (which ended up another failure) and now this team has no assets to trade while also losing a 1st to be in the position it is in.



If you think I'm one to defend Karlsson at this point, I don't know what to tell you.

I literally said that I agree that the Karlsson trade ended up one of the worst trades in the Crosby era.

I'm fine with this thought process and I'm happy to agree.

I disagree with McCann being a 30-30 guy here. And Marino and Matheson were plateauing here.

I argued that summer that we should've kept Marino and Matheson and let Letang walk while acquiring Petry or Burns on the cheap. That still looks to be the right move.

This does NOT help your case. If the guy was in the middle of a divorce - something that any reasonable person would say might take up quite a bit of your attention - then why in the good god damn f*** would you trade for him!? And pay a 2nd no less.

Yes. Hextall was a moron to do this trade. Even MORE SO than what he was before you made his post.

Jeez, is there anyone around the league suffering from depression or had a family member just die! Let's go get them!

Hockey players are human beings. Based on Granlund's production since he left, we probably could've found a role for him here.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

"Depth"

For real. People are trying to look at this shit all through a "we still have a chance, what makes the most sense" lens when in reality, it's all about the entertainment value and stat padding now. That whole competing thing, that ship sailed like half a decade ago at this point.

 

[SEALBound]

To clarify, I don't even think the Guentzel trade was anything worthwhile either. He targeted quantity over quality and got 2 B level prospects and a 2nd rather than a B level prospect and a 1st. The fact that Brunicke looks like a terrific pick with that 2nd may bail him out, but it was still a pretty middling trade. It also doesn't help that he probably sunk value in that deal by insisting on getting back Bunting, when you can get a Bunting caliber guy in UFA pretty easily.

Two additional points there:
1. Guentzel tanked a bit of his value not being willing to discuss extensions before a trade (or potentially even in season).
2. I imagine Dubas wanting Bunting back for a multitude of reasons, one being that he replaces Jake in the top 6 slot, two he provides a component of physicality and shit-stirring that the team (at the time) was desperately missing, and three it kept him from having to make an additional trade or signing.

Bunting is pretty mid. Right in line with what we typically have in the 2nd line LW but I would say Dubas wanting him back in the deal was right in line with the "compete as best we can until Sid/Geno are gone while building for the future". It's not the best possible path but it's the one that the organization has agreed to. Everything since the TDL has pointed to that.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

It’s just crazy the lengths people go to attack Dubas. I get it with Sullivan, he has a long established track record. Dubas hasn’t even been here for two years, and we are starting to see the prospect pipeline rebuild, along with swapping the cap space taken up by several inconsequential players to get Erik Karlsson.

A GM's job isn't only to just "Build up the prospect pipeline". He also has to sign players, manage the cap, etc.

The players he's signed (or re-signed) have not been great. Eller is probably the only person you can say "oh he's been good here"

The rest have been absolute anchors (Jarry) or extremely bad players (Harkins).

 

[eXile3]

For real. People are trying to look at this shit all through a "we still have a chance, what makes the most sense" lens when in reality, it's all about the entertainment value and stat padding now. That whole competing thing, that ship sailed like half a decade ago at this point.

Out of curiosity, who is stat padding? Sid’s getting nothing and Geno’s production has fallen off since the hot start.

 

[SEALBound]

Also, hypothetically we could be pumping the value of multiple mid 20s players in Puustinen, Poulin, DOC, and Pulju for returns this deadline.

Yet we have to have Accairi, Beauvillier and Kevin Hayes playing over them.

None of those 4 are returning anything more or less than Acciari, Beau, or Hayes.

Someone could have just had Poulin for free.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

For real. People are trying to look at this shit all through a "we still have a chance, what makes the most sense" lens when in reality, it's all about the entertainment value and stat padding now. That whole competing thing, that ship sailed like half a decade ago at this point.

That and this is what a team gets when it's like... last three GMs straight prioritize signing a buncha expensive garbage that "plays the right way" to fill out the roster from top to bottom then struts around talking about how "deep" the team is, though. Who needs actual ability in your top six when you can just whine about never having enough cap (because you spent it all on garbage) and talk about how Rust is the Ultimate Penguin and Rakell tries real hard and does "little things."