Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The problem is that Sullivan ruins players. Trying to parse out how much it was Dubas making a bad decision and how much is Sullivan is a bigger waste of time than talking about hockey on a message board already is.

Even his 2 biggest mistakes, Jarry and Graves, have shown to be capable in the past. Maybe they turn it around under a new coach.

Sullivan refuses to change anything. We saw GCRust for years despite that line's issues defensively and with streakiness. He got a guy in Granlund who had like 40% of his production come from power play over the years, and he used him as a 3rd line shutdown C. Sullivan's an egomaniac and a doofus to boot. He cannot or outright refuses to coach young guys, he can't identify players' strengths, and seemingly refuses to put guys in the best position to succeed. He just has to do this patented Sullivan Bullshit™ where he runs a 1st line, a typical 3rd line (Geno's), and two pure shutdown grunt 4th lines as his bottom-6 who have to play the opposition to a draw in his beloved zero event hockey.

There are things to be annoyed with Dubas about, but arguably the biggest is his refusal to level any criticism against Sullivan. Either he's too stupid to pinpoint the coach as a colossal issue, which reflects really poorly on Dubas, or he doesn't have the power to do anything, which reflects really poorly on FSG. I think it's the former. Dubas' whole thing with leaving Toronto was that he wanted full control to do what he felt he needed to do. I don't think he'd sign here if ownership made it known Sullivan was above him on the food chain.

 

[eXile3]

I wonder what Rust and Rakell could fetch? 2nd rounders?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

There are things to be annoyed with Dubas about, but arguably the biggest is his refusal to level any criticism against Sullivan. Either he's too stupid to pinpoint the coach as a colossal issue, which reflects really poorly on Dubas, or he doesn't have the power to do anything, which reflects really poorly on FSG. I think it's the former. Dubas' whole thing with leaving Toronto was that he wanted full control to do what he felt he needed to do. I don't think he'd sign here if ownership made it known Sullivan was above him on the food chain.

Honestly I think if it's this it at least reflects at least somewhat poorly on Dubas, too. I totally understand that it's real easy for ME to sit here and gripe about a guy taking 35M to be a simp. But then again Kyle had plenty of money even before he took on this most recent wheelbarrow load.

Plus I know people only care to varying degrees about the following but that scenario would also be a slap in the face to the fans (one would think they'd ALREADY be more upset) and a huge disservice to the core. Like I keep on saying... it didn't HAVE to be like this. Characterizing Dubas' job as "too hard" to be realistic is such a cop out. He shouldn't have taken 35M to do it, then. That's definitely a "wow I assume you MUST be able to work some magic at THAT pricetag" figure.

 

[Gurglesons]

I wonder what Rust and Rakell could fetch? 2nd rounders?

Another bad contract.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Honestly I think if it's this it at least reflects at least somewhat poorly on Dubas, too. I totally understand that it's real easy for ME to sit here and gripe about a guy taking 35M to be a simp. But then again Kyle had plenty of money even before he took on this most recent wheelbarrow load.

Plus I know people only care to varying degrees about the following but that scenario would also be a slap in the face to the fans (one would think they'd ALREADY be more upset) and a huge disservice to the core. Like I keep on saying... it didn't HAVE to be like this. Characterizing Dubas' job as "too hard" to be realistic is such a cop out. He shouldn't have taken 35M to do it, then. That's definitely a "wow I assume you MUST be able to work some magic at THAT pricetag" figure.

Total transparency; I'd absolutely just be a drone for FSG and Sully for that kinda paycheck.

But I think Dubas could've found a job with full power and a similar paycheck wherever if FSG told him Sullivan's off limits. IIRC there was a rumor he was close to ending up in Ottawa as well. I'm sure multiple teams were interested once he left Toronto.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's fine though. If they adore him but team is hot garbage on the ice, remove him from the bench and bring him into the FSG FO if he's THAT well liked. It's just getting too hard to look at the product on the ice and not come to the conclusion that coaching is a BIG part of it.

White knighting for Hextall and Granlund. Of all the people to hitch your wagon to. Beyond bizarre.

It's not white knighting. It's looking at things objectively.

Granlund has 70 points in 79 games going back to the start of last year. Jared McCann has 74 in 89 games.

Why are we acting like Hextall giving away McCann was the worst thing to happen in the modern Crosby era when Dubas PAID to give Granlund away?

Matheson and Marino since you consistently bring them up... finished with WORSE GF% than Petry last year. Petry outproduced both at 5v5 in terms of points in LESS games.

We gave up a 1st and a 2nd to add in EK65 who has made us a worse team while Petry played 18+ minutes a night on a team that finished better than us and Granlund produced more points than anyone not named Crosby or Malkin on our team since he was moved.

I was a fan of the EK65 trade, but has it been an objective disaster on a scale we haven't seen since Shero let Trouba / Forsberg go in place of Pouliot. It pretty much put us in purgatory.

 

[Beauner]

It's not white knighting. It's looking at things objectively.

Granlund has 70 points in 79 games going back to the start of last year. Jared McCann has 74 in 89 games.

Why are we acting like Hextall giving away McCann was the worst thing to happen in the modern Crosby era when Dubas PAID to give Granlund away?

Matheson and Marino since you consistently bring them up... finished with WORSE GF% than Petry last year. Petry outproduced both at 5v5 in terms of points in LESS games.

We gave up a 1st and a 2nd to add in EK65 who has made us a worse team while Petry played 18+ minutes a night on a team that finished better than us and Granlund produced more points than anyone not named Crosby or Malkin on our team since he was moved.

I was a fan of the EK65 trade, but has it been an objective disaster on a scale we haven't seen since Shero let Trouba / Forsberg go in place of Pouliot. It pretty much put us in purgatory.

I had to look this up to verify it was accurate. Granlund didn't fit here at all, I wouldn't call it a mistake getting rid of him.

 

[Gurglesons]

I had to look this up to verify it was accurate. Granlund didn't fit here at all, I wouldn't call it a mistake getting rid of him.

Granlund got 21 games here after finding out his wife had left him for another man.

He also got used as a 3C when anyone in their right mind would've used him in the top six.

I hated the Granlund trade, but it's just further proof of this team's poor player evaluation, poor usage of players, and general directionless management.

Granlund suffered the same exact type of usage that Jared McCann did which is why McCann had multiple 20+ game experiences where he scored 1 or 2 5v5 goals here. If you are going to call one "determential" to the franchise because we moved him, the same should be true of the other.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

It's not white knighting. It's looking at things objectively.

Granlund has 70 points in 79 games going back to the start of last year. Jared McCann has 74 in 89 games.

Why are we acting like Hextall giving away McCann was the worst thing to happen in the modern Crosby era when Dubas PAID to give Granlund away?

Matheson and Marino since you consistently bring them up... finished with WORSE GF% than Petry last year. Petry outproduced both at 5v5 in terms of points in LESS games.

We gave up a 1st and a 2nd to add in EK65 who has made us a worse team while Petry played 18+ minutes a night on a team that finished better than us and Granlund produced more points than anyone not named Crosby or Malkin on our team since he was moved.

I was a fan of the EK65 trade, but has it been an objective disaster on a scale we haven't seen since Shero let Trouba / Forsberg go in place of Pouliot. It pretty much put us in purgatory.

I had to look this up to verify it was accurate. Granlund didn't fit here at all, I wouldn't call it a mistake getting rid of him.

If we played Granlund in the top 6 and gave him O zone starts galore with #1 PP time 100% Granlund being moved is bad.

We gave him horrible zone starts and LITTLE PP time.

Someone also has to get empty calorie points on a bad team. Puck eventually goes in.

I am glad Granlund found success.

McCann was a cost controlled young asset that made the PP better and made his lines better. Moving on from him was a mistake.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Oh boy, we're at the "the Granlund trade wasn't actually bad" part of the debate now. Lovely to see.

The mental backflips you have to do to say "who cares we gave away McCann for nothing?" and "Dubas paid to get rid of Granlund" (how exactly did he do that?) is wild to me.

If we played Granlund in the top 6 and gave him O zone starts galore with #1 PP time 100% Granlund being moved is bad.

We gave him horrible zone starts and LITTLE PP time.

Someone also has to get empty calorie points on a bad team. Puck eventually goes in.

I am glad Granlund found success.

McCann was a cost controlled young asset that made the PP better and made his lines better. Moving on from him was a mistake.

I have no idea how anyone can think anything but this. This is the 100% correct opinion on those moves.

 

[Gurglesons]

If we played Granlund in the top 6 and gave him O zone starts galore with #1 PP time 100% Granlund being moved is bad.

We gave him horrible zone starts and LITTLE PP time.

Someone also has to get empty calorie points on a bad team. Puck eventually goes in.

I am glad Granlund found success.

McCann was a cost controlled young asset that made the PP better and made his lines better. Moving on from him was a mistake.

He had one year left on his deal and Jeff Carter was cheaper and actually could score goals in the playoffs.

 

[Khelandros]

We have entered the Mike Sullivan Desperation Era.

 

[Gurglesons]

Oh boy, we're at the "the Granlund trade wasn't actually bad" part of the debate now. Lovely to see.

The mental backflips you have to do to say "who cares we gave away McCann for nothing?" and "Dubas paid to get rid of Granlund" (how exactly did he do that?) is wild to me.



I have no idea how anyone can think anything but this. This is the 100% correct opinion on those moves.

Never said the Granlund trade was bad. We paid a 1st and a 2nd to take on EK65's contract.

If we are playing the hindsight game, the EK65 trade is one of the worst trades in the Crosby era Penguins.

 

[Empoleon8771]

We have entered the Mike Sullivan Desperation Era.

I like this setup. I can watch the Malkin/Crosby line shifts and then turn off the game whenever anyone else is playing.

 

[Gurglesons]

We have entered the Mike Sullivan Desperation Era.

It's absurd lol. This team deserves everything it is gettng at this point with Sully and Dubas thinking they are the smartest guys in the room.

 

[deakka]

We have entered the Mike Sullivan Desperation Era.

Hayes at 2c. Just like we all predicted

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

That lineup is a who's who of names none of us will remember in less than a decade.

 

[SEALBound]

It's not white knighting. It's looking at things objectively.

Granlund has 70 points in 79 games going back to the start of last year. Jared McCann has 74 in 89 games.

Why are we acting like Hextall giving away McCann was the worst thing to happen in the modern Crosby era when Dubas PAID to give Granlund away?

Matheson and Marino since you consistently bring them up... finished with WORSE GF% than Petry last year. Petry outproduced both at 5v5 in terms of points in LESS games.

We gave up a 1st and a 2nd to add in EK65 who has made us a worse team while Petry played 18+ minutes a night on a team that finished better than us and Granlund produced more points than anyone not named Crosby or Malkin on our team since he was moved.

I was a fan of the EK65 trade, but has it been an objective disaster on a scale we haven't seen since Shero let Trouba / Forsberg go in place of Pouliot. It pretty much put us in purgatory.

That's great that Granlund found success in SAN JOSE. He was objectively putrid here. Trading for him, and paying a 2nd no less, was one of the biggest miscalculations of the Penguins post-cap era. It showed a complete and utter detachment from reality, and it baffled literally everyone. An AGM was fired for it for Christ sake.

That's great that Petry did so well in DETROIT last year. He was mediocre at best here, was older, slower, and had a more bloated contract than Matheson that we had to pay to get out of. We are STILL retaining on Petry while Matheson is doing better in Montreal. How Matheson-Marino did 3 years ago as a pairing is irrelevant in 2024 as we discuss how much cleaning up Dubas had to do in the wake of Hextall. We would still be better off having kept those two and all the assets it took to get rid of Granlund, Rutta, and Petry AND replace them with Karlsson.

Nice redirect to Shero and the 2012 draft though.

I had to look this up to verify it was accurate. Granlund didn't fit here at all, I wouldn't call it a mistake getting rid of him.

Remember when we were all hoping we'd be getting Chychrun? And we end up with Granlund...

 

[Gurglesons]

That lineup is a who's who of names none of us will remember in less than a decade.

Oh ye of little faith.

Kevin Hayes was moved for the next future superstar. We got a 2nd round pick in 2025 from the Blues!

 

[SEALBound]

Hayes at 2c. Just like we all predicted

Rust is hurt, what should we do Mike?

"Hmmm...let's make three 4th lines".

I might actually be interested in the Bunting-Glass-Puustinen line though. If they get something beyond 5minuntes, we could actually see something there.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's great that Granlund found success in SAN JOSE. He was objectively putrid here. Trading for him, and paying a 2nd no less, was one of the biggest miscalculations of the Penguins post-cap era. It showed a complete and utter detachment from reality, and it baffled literally everyone. An AGM was fired for it for Christ sake.

That's great that Petry did so well in DETROIT last year. He was mediocre at best here, was older, slower, and had a more bloated contract than Matheson that we had to pay to get out of. We are STILL retaining on Petry while Matheson is doing better in Montreal. How Matheson-Marino did 3 years ago as a pairing is irrelevant in 2024 as we discuss how much cleaning up Dubas had to do in the wake of Hextall. We would still be better off having kept those two and all the assets it took to get rid of Granlund, Rutta, and Petry AND replace them with Karlsson.

Nice redirect to Shero and the 2012 draft though.

I provided you numbers for Matheson, Marino and Petry in 23-24.

Petry was a better defenseman last year than Matheson and Marino from a production standpoint and from a goal for and goal against perspective at 5v5.

Erik Karlsson was a bad move. It looked great on paper, but it has been objectively the worst move a Penguins GM has made in a decade.

If you truly were here to discuss hockey and not focus on being right, you'd be honest about that fact.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Hayes at 2c. Just like we all predicted

To be fair, that's a 1st line and 3 shitty 3rd lines. I figure they will be used accordingly.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'm actually fine with Crosby and Malkin playing on the same line. Like Emp said at least it makes it easy to tune in and out to the only interesting part of the game. I just didn't think even THIS coach would hit rock bottom so fast in regards to ideas. New record!

 

[deakka]

what's up with this btw?

https://x.com/i/web/status/1850932736736838096

Murashov already one step too low on tue chart since Jarry is in WBS.
They need another goalie in Wheeling?

 

[Gurglesons]

what's up with this btw?

https://x.com/i/web/status/1850932736736838096

Murashov already one step too low on tue chart since Jarry is in WBS.
They need another goalie in Wheeling?

you gotta have organizational depth to develop prospects.