Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[Big Friggin Dummy]

More like a return of #2.

#2 is poo.

Pouliot?

 

[pistolpete11]

I'm going to see how Brunicke looks this year before I squawk too hard about a 1st from the Guentzel trade. That draft was an absolute cluster after about 10-12 guys.

Never said I wanted a 1st.

The problem I have with your bottom statement is, while it's fair to say "we could have had an extra $6mil to spend on a top 6 wing", we have to first stop and consider whether or not that something that we should even be doing. Looking in and around that price range, we are looking at guys like Toffoli ($6mil x 4yr), Marchessault ($5.5mil x 5yr), Bertuzzi ($5.5mil x 4yrs, and Stephenson ($6.25mil x 7yr). For where this organization is at and how much overall impact guys like those would ultimately have, I think there's a good argument to suggest we shouldn't have and that we were better off taking the draft capital and rounding out our depth. Hayes is scoring for us just as good as any of those guys and will likely net us a small return at the TDL (this year or next). Glass is 25yo and can do both center and wing and is overall doing well on top of being a RFA. He's a young bottom/middle-6 center that we really needed, and once you have guys like Eller, Hayes, and maybe Acciari going out, we will need him for a bottom-6 center slot.

I don't think a $6mil+ wing would be a difference-maker right now. Not with the way everything else looks.

Maybe not a $6M winger, but add in Acciari, Lizotte, Beau, etc. How about now?

I've been saying this for years. They need top end talent beyond Crosby and Malkin. It's not a coincidence that the Pens didn't do much in the playoffs for years and then immediately won 2 Cups when they got Kessel. If Crosby and Malkin needed that when they were in their late 20's, they need at least that in their mid-to-late 30's.

Instead, this team went with the "rounding out the depth" approach by spending premium assets and too much valuable cap space on middle-to-bottom 6ers and mediocre-at-best goalies. And look where it's got them.

At this stage in Crosby and Malkin's careers, I just fundamentally disagree with the approach of spending on depth. The priority should be supporting those guys, pick a few key depth guys, and fill the rest in with the DOC's, Poolparty's, and Puusy's of the world. Still probably wouldn't be enough, especially with Sullivan still here, but it gives them a better shot than what we've seen since the Cups.

 

[SEALBound]

Never said I wanted a 1st.


Maybe not a $6M winger, but add in Acciari, Lizotte, Beau, etc. How about now?

I've been saying this for years. They need top end talent beyond Crosby and Malkin. It's not a coincidence that the Pens didn't do much in the playoffs for years and then immediately won 2 Cups when they got Kessel. If Crosby and Malkin needed that when they were in their late 20's, they need at least that in their mid-to-late 30's.

Instead, this team went with the "rounding out the depth" approach by spending premium assets and too much valuable cap space on middle-to-bottom 6ers and mediocre-at-best goalies. And look where it's got them.

At this stage in Crosby and Malkin's careers, I just fundamentally disagree with the approach of spending on depth. The priority should be supporting those guys, pick a few key depth guys, and fill the rest in with the DOC's, Poolparty's, and Puusy's of the world. Still probably wouldn't be enough, especially with Sullivan still here, but it gives them a better shot than what we've seen since the Cups.

I still get where you're coming from and, again, I go back to the "just because we 'can' or 'could' doesn't mean we should". The highest-paid player in UFA was Stamkos at $8mil for 4yrs and then Lindholm at $7.75mil for 7yrs. I don't think either would be the ultimate difference-maker right now.

They owe the Cup in 2016/17 to more than just Kessel. 30% of that roster was added to in-season. And they got a new coach.

But I mean, I do the same thing. I bemoan Jarry and Graves. I could understand saying "without those two, you'd have $9mil+" and hell I've advocated sending them out for a guy like Huberdeau. So I'm not totally against the idea per say. I'm just in the boat of "no more new big deals" because I don't think it will matter nor would it have mattered.

The spending wasn't just on depth, it was depth + futures. Given where we are at, that's the smartest overall direction even though it's a not great direction. There's just more the two directions of "sign bloated deals to compete now" and "rip it all down to the studs and go scorched earth on your franchise players". If they fire Sullivan and go on a bit of a run, that might change though.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Never said I wanted a 1st.


Maybe not a $6M winger, but add in Acciari, Lizotte, Beau, etc. How about now?

I've been saying this for years. They need top end talent beyond Crosby and Malkin. It's not a coincidence that the Pens didn't do much in the playoffs for years and then immediately won 2 Cups when they got Kessel. If Crosby and Malkin needed that when they were in their late 20's, they need at least that in their mid-to-late 30's.

Instead, this team went with the "rounding out the depth" approach by spending premium assets and too much valuable cap space on middle-to-bottom 6ers and mediocre-at-best goalies. And look where it's got them.

At this stage in Crosby and Malkin's careers, I just fundamentally disagree with the approach of spending on depth. The priority should be supporting those guys, pick a few key depth guys, and fill the rest in with the DOC's, Poolparty's, and Puusy's of the world. Still probably wouldn't be enough, especially with Sullivan still here, but it gives them a better shot than what we've seen since the Cups.

I could not agree more. Well said. But Sullivan's fingerprints are all over this. The players we acquire either get his blessing or they sit, rot, get waived, demoted or waste away.

The more I think about it, the more I think Dubas is just a mouthpiece for this organization. He is allowed to hire people who make the owners look good, he can even hire old pals from Toronto. But does he have ANY power within this organization? I don't think so.

Was it Dubas that made the McGroarty for Yager trade? Probably. Sullivan had final say, but sure. But Dubas probably viewed McGroarty as an NHL rookie this season. Not a long-range project (since he traded away the top prospect in the organization for what many believed was a quicker path to the NHL). Sullivan wants no part of teaching McGroarty what it takes to be an NHLer. And this player is a guy who was a very confident player when he came here. But this organization has a way of sapping the life out of prospects.

Something I heard from Frank Seravalli really put things in perspective. He was talking on his podcast last week and mentioned that Sullivan is as safe as any head coach in the NHL. We already knew this but not too many serious media types have said something like this, especially when the team struggles. He referred to the summer time, and FSG executives having lunches with Sullivan, taking in Red Sox games with him, etc.

We have a Massachusetts mafia situation going on with this team right now. Dubas is the go-between guy, but he is just here to look good, speak eloquently and keep out of the way. There are probably many moves Dubas wants to make, likely some involving Leafs prospects, current and former Leafs players and others. Spezza probably feels the same way. But Bunting and Acciari are pretty much it. Andreas Johansson, I suppose. Bunting is already in and out of the dog house. Johansson was here for a minute. Acciari meets the Sullivan seal of approval, so there's that.

The main reason why Dubas was hired is because FSG and Sullivan knew he was a good subordinate under Shanahan (until he was no longer), so they felt he would be a good yes man.

I might be completely off on some of this. Dubas is also to blame for what is currently happening with this team, and I realize that. But it is funny to me that HIS plan consisted of adding future assets while at the same time remaining competitive. This is clearly not working with what he has brought in, so FSG can easily say that Dubas failed with his plan.


As a side note, a friend of mind alerted me yesterday to a rumor he heard about some tension between Crosby and Sullivan. Is there anything to this, has anyone else heard this?

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I still get where you're coming from and, again, I go back to the "just because we 'can' or 'could' doesn't mean we should". The highest-paid player in UFA was Stamkos at $8mil for 4yrs and then Lindholm at $7.75mil for 7yrs. I don't think either would be the ultimate difference-maker right now.

They owe the Cup in 2016/17 to more than just Kessel. 30% of that roster was added to in-season. And they got a new coach.

But I mean, I do the same thing. I bemoan Jarry and Graves. I could understand saying "without those two, you'd have $9mil+" and hell I've advocated sending them out for a guy like Huberdeau. So I'm not totally against the idea per say. I'm just in the boat of "no more new big deals" because I don't think it will matter nor would it have mattered.

The spending wasn't just on depth, it was depth + futures. Given where we are at, that's the smartest overall direction even though it's a not great direction. There's just more the two directions of "sign bloated deals to compete now" and "rip it all down to the studs and go scorched earth on your franchise players". If they fire Sullivan and go on a bit of a run, that might change though.

The problem is, Sullivan is going nowhere so they absolutely need more high-end talent brought in from the outside to offset the shitty coaching we will continue to get.

Rookies need to learn. High-end talent already know the game. They are self-starters. This coach is going to ruin every young player we try to bring in.

If we have any remote chance of landing Mitch Marner, be it this summer or sooner, we need to seriously explore it.

Because you know what this team will look like with Mike Sullivan coaching a rebuild? Look no further than Philadelphia. I want no part of Torts part deux.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Sullivan wants no part of teaching McGroarty what it takes to be an NHLer.


As a side note, a friend of mind alerted me yesterday to a rumor he heard about some tension between Crosby and Sullivan. Is there anything to this, has anyone else heard this?

That first part is so key. Dude doesn't want to (or simply cannot) coach players. They have to come in as basically finished products, whether prospects or vets.

As for the second part; No, because the second Sid decides Sullivan's system/style/coaching are annoying him, Sullivan's gone.

 

[Gurglesons]

Pono probably could but it's irrelevant because they are worth more to us than a 2nd.

Pickering nor Poulin are returning that either but who cares since we would rather have them as a player than a 2nd to be used on an unknown.

Plenty of teams with younger players would take that approach as well.

Probably Koivunen. Hes done nothing to lower his draft pedigree. Almost PPG in mens legaue in liiga last season. And although small sample size, hes a PPG player so far in the AHL as well.

I think you guys are completely out to lunch if you think we are getting a 2nd round pick for either of those players right now.

But, whatever. It's like arguing with a wall on this topic with some of you. I also think it's rare to see a player drafted in the 2nd round immediately return a 2nd round pick.

 

[HandshakeLine]

More like a return of #2.

#2 is poo.

careful, troll stomper gonna get you~~!

Pouliot?

Return of the Shat

 

[SEALBound]

The problem is, Sullivan is going nowhere so they absolutely need more high-end talent brought in from the outside to offset the shitty coaching we will continue to get.

Rookies need to learn. High-end talent already know the game. They are self-starters. This coach is going to ruin every young player we try to bring in.

If we have any remote chance of landing Mitch Marner, be it this summer or sooner, we need to seriously explore it.

Because you know what this team will look like with Mike Sullivan coaching a rebuild? Look no further than Philadelphia. I want no part of Torts part deux.

I think you and @pistolpete11 are missing the core thesis of my response. I don't disagree that in order for this team to compete better, it would have been (in hindsight) better to use anywhere from $4mil (Graves) up to $18mil (Graves, Jarry, Acciari, Hayes, Glass) on higher-end talent and round everything out with uber-cheap depth players like DOC and Puljujarvi.

What I am saying is:
1. I don't think that talent was available. I listed the big fish in FA and looking at stats, none of them are doing all that well unless we want to advocate for Jake (which would be an incredibly reasonable argument). Steph, Stammer, Bertuzzi, Toffoli, Marchy - none of these guys would be the missing ingredient we currently see. This team is far more broken than what a single 27+ yo top 6 wing can realistically provide.
2. Given where we are at with our window, it doesn't make sense to get any of those guys, even if they were available. I thought what Nashville did was a little bizarre. Now they have Marchy, Stammer, and Skjei on expensive, long-term contracts. Season is still young obviously but if they don't pull something off, that's going to be a big miscalculation by Trotz.
3. With Sullivan at the helm, I just assume ride it out with Sid and Geno with what we have in front of us. We'll get to waive goodbye and we are still collecting draft capital. Dubas weaponized available cap space to gain more draft capital. We got a 2nd from Smith, 2nd+3rd for Hayes, and a 3rd for Glass PLUS whatever we get from those two later down the road.
4. To get the talent needed to turn us into a bonafide contender we would need to flush what little prospect and draft capital we have. And even then, whose available? Seriously. Marner? What would Marner cost us? I think our last big trade was Karlsson. It was a meh trade after 90 games. I don't think we are in a position to pay the price tag anymore. Certainly not when we have potential lottery picks coming our way.

I think you guys are completely out to lunch if you think we are getting a 2nd round pick for either of those players right now.

But, whatever. It's like arguing with a wall on this topic with some of you. I also think it's rare to see a player drafted in the 2nd round immediately return a 2nd round pick.

Wouldn't matter anyway. We could get a 1st+ for each and you'd still find something to bitch about.

 

[The Old Master]

Would you rather have a late 1st than all this? Late 1sts turn into good NHL'ers like 25% of the time.
I'd much rather roll the dice on 5 guys than put all my chips on one. Scouts constantly get it wrong. I don't trust them.

Hayes and Glass are only here because of the picks that came with them. If they perform well that's just a bonus.

it's easier to move up with 1st than it is with lower picks, and we do need to move up to get our new batch of top players. geno and sid just are not going to fall into our lap again. imo

 

[SEALBound]

it's easier to move up with 1st than it is with lower picks, and we do need to move up to get our new batch of top players. geno and sid just are not going to fall into our lap again. imo

Which is why we need to really stop and think about how soon we really want to suck.

New Jersey and Edmonton sucked for a LONG time before getting better. Same with Toronto. Buffalo still sucks. Anaheim is collecting nice pieces but they still suck. Chicago is a ways out as well despite Bedard. Arizona never figured it out. It's not enough to just tear it down and get a top 1-3 pick. You have to be bad at the right time and gentlemen, the right time is next year. You get Gavin, you will see a new franchise.

 

[canadianguy77]

I don’t even think you need high end talent per se. Just guys with some explosiveness. Didn’t make a lot of sense to go with a heavier roster if they’re not going to even bother trying to play a defensive game. But I think we would’ve got more mileage out of the old timers if they would’ve prioritized speed on the flanks.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I think you guys are completely out to lunch if you think we are getting a 2nd round pick for either of those players right now.

But, whatever. It's like arguing with a wall on this topic with some of you. I also think it's rare to see a player drafted in the 2nd round immediately return a 2nd round pick.

You know maybe I could have chosen my words better.

My thought process was to point out that they are prospects with similar odds to a 2nd rounder therefor are worth the 2nd.

But I understand why there was a misinterpretation with my poor word choice.

 

[pistolpete11]

I still get where you're coming from and, again, I go back to the "just because we 'can' or 'could' doesn't mean we should". The highest-paid player in UFA was Stamkos at $8mil for 4yrs and then Lindholm at $7.75mil for 7yrs. I don't think either would be the ultimate difference-maker right now.

They owe the Cup in 2016/17 to more than just Kessel. 30% of that roster was added to in-season. And they got a new coach.

But I mean, I do the same thing. I bemoan Jarry and Graves. I could understand saying "without those two, you'd have $9mil+" and hell I've advocated sending them out for a guy like Huberdeau. So I'm not totally against the idea per say. I'm just in the boat of "no more new big deals" because I don't think it will matter nor would it have mattered.

The spending wasn't just on depth, it was depth + futures. Given where we are at, that's the smartest overall direction even though it's a not great direction. There's just more the two directions of "sign bloated deals to compete now" and "rip it all down to the studs and go scorched earth on your franchise players". If they fire Sullivan and go on a bit of a run, that might change though.

It's all academic now since this team has been so mismanaged basically the entire Crosby-Malkin era outside of 2016-2017 and this unwavering allegiance to Mike Sullivan.

I'm just saying, I'd rather have sat on a bunch of cap space waiting for the right player than go and blow it on a bunch of junk simply because they need to look like they are trying or #depth or whatever. Even if that means they would have taken a step back some year. So if Stamkos isn't it (I never really thought about him to have an opinion), fine. Maybe next year they could have taken a shot at Marner (and yes, I realize he probably wouldn't sign with the Pens ever let alone now). Or they could have been in on more trades like Tkachuk or Eichel or whoever if they didn't also blow all their draft capital on middle 6ers.

Anyway, regarding Glass and Hayes, I get it. It's probably too late to save this team anyway and they got some picks. Maybe they will flip them for even more picks and I'll change my tune completely. They've played well enough that I'm at least kinda neutral to it now.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

I think you guys are completely out to lunch if you think we are getting a 2nd round pick for either of those players right now.

But, whatever. It's like arguing with a wall on this topic with some of you. I also think it's rare to see a player drafted in the 2nd round immediately return a 2nd round pick.

Would have to add a hard stamp of agree here.

I don’t even think you need high end talent per se. Just guys with some explosiveness. Didn’t make a lot of sense to go with a heavier roster if they’re not going to even bother trying to play a defensive game. But I think we would’ve got more mileage out of the old timers if they would’ve prioritized speed on the flanks.

This is where misses like the Poulin pick, and, to a small relative extent, the Pickering pick, really hurt. Legitimate contributions from those draft positions right now on the cheap would go a long way to alleviating some of the current ailments.

 

[Gurglesons]

Wouldn't matter anyway. We could get a 1st+ for each and you'd still find something to bitch about.

If Dubas got a 1st+ for any of our roster players, I'd be estatic.

My whole issue with the Guentzel trade is he didn't do that.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Yeah, it's exceptionally important for a team to continue to churn out legit NHL talent in order to remain relevant for the long haul. This team's drafting and development over the past decade has really f***ed 'em. That, and the coach/GMs constantly pining for dogshit players as far as vets go.

 

[SEALBound]

It's all academic now since this team has been so mismanaged basically the entire Crosby-Malkin era outside of 2016-2017 and this unwavering allegiance to Mike Sullivan.

I'm just saying, I'd rather have sat on a bunch of cap space waiting for the right player than go and blow it on a bunch of junk simply because they need to look like they are trying or #depth or whatever. Even if that means they would have taken a step back some year. So if Stamkos isn't it (I never really thought about him to have an opinion), fine. Maybe next year they could have taken a shot at Marner (and yes, I realize he probably wouldn't sign with the Pens ever let alone now). Or they could have been in on more trades like Tkachuk or Eichel or whoever if they didn't also blow all their draft capital on middle 6ers.

Anyway, regarding Glass and Hayes, I get it. It's probably too late to save this team anyway and they got some picks. Maybe they will flip them for even more picks and I'll change my tune completely. They've played well enough that I'm at least kinda neutral to it now.

I was okay with the moves JR made in 2018 overall but I think that was the beginning of the mess we have now. I blame Tom Wilson. The first move down this path was Reaves. JR was tired of us getting kicked around with no able to answer. After that it was a slew of mediocre to bad decisions with the occasional good one. The way Sullivan has solidified himself though...barf.

I don't think we ever had the ponies for Tkachuk or Eichel though I touted Jake for Tkachuk on more than one occasion.

Nah, I think we just need to ride it out then rebuild. It's the right path even though it's the suckiest path.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah, it's exceptionally important for a team to continue to churn out legit NHL talent in order to remain relevant for the long haul. This team's drafting and development over the past decade has really f***ed 'em. That, and the coach/GMs constantly pining for dogshit players as far as vets go.

I'd argue the development and player evaluation is way more of an issue than the actual drafting.

 

[Pens x]

I am sure that I am not the only one who has thought this and it may have been commented on already...

Dubas likely signed Kevin Hayes as trade bait for a future date knowing that there would be plenty of suitors that would be willing to try him as a top six C, probably 2C. If so that is a shrewd move. Nashville comes to mind, Barry Rubble would likely offer a first for Hayes.

Awww, still trying to convince yourself that Dubas isnt an idiot. The man with no plan.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'd argue the development and player evaluation is way more of an issue than the actual drafting.

I think "way more" is a stretch, the drafting has been godawful too. But, it doesn't really matter when your GM (whether JR, Hextall, or Dubas) is gonna keep the roster chock full of bullshit zero event hockey vets, and your coach refuses to actually coach younger players.

I can't f***ing wait for the end of Sullivan hockey. It's gonna be like celebrating another Cup.

 

[Ignatius]

Awww, still trying to convince yourself that Dubas isnt an idiot. The man with no plan.

I'm not a GMKD fanboy but rather I'm trying to make sense of why he would pick up Kevin Hayes. It's certainly not because we needed him but I could conceive of how he could be used to get a much better asset considering how Hayes could easily be viewed as an available 2C option for many teams that are desperate enough to believe it. I think the guy totally sucks and is a joke but if he gets us a 1st the effort was worth it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm not a GMKD fanboy but rather I'm trying to make sense of why he would pick up Kevin Hayes. It's certainly not because we needed him but I could conceive of how he could be used to get a much better asset considering how Hayes could easily be viewed as an available 2C option for many teams that are desperate enough to believe it. I think the guy totally sucks and is a joke but if he gets us a 1st the effort was worth it.

They were paid a 2nd to take him on and he's given them pretty good play so far. Not sure why he's a guy worth complaining about.

They'll hold onto him for this year and next year and might get a mid round pick for him as a rental next year, if he continues to be an effective bottom-6 center.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think "way more" is a stretch, the drafting has been godawful too. But, it doesn't really matter when your GM (whether JR, Hextall, or Dubas) is gonna keep the roster chock full of bullshit zero event hockey vets, and your coach refuses to actually coach younger players.

I can't f***ing wait for the end of Sullivan hockey. It's gonna be like celebrating another Cup.

To some degree.

But at the same time this team has largely not had picks over the last few years. Hard to say you "draft godawful" when you have no 1sts in 3 of your last 5 drafts. Thanks Kyle!

 

[Empoleon8771]

To some degree.

But at the same time this team has largely not had picks over the last few years. Hard to say you "draft godawful" when you have no 1sts in 3 of your last 5 drafts. Thanks Kyle!

Dubas traded one of those firsts while JR traded the other two. Don't know why you're somehow criticizing Dubas for decisions JR made years before him.