Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[Gurglesons]

Dubas traded one of those firsts while JR traded the other two. Don't know why you're somehow criticizing Dubas for decisions JR made years before him.

Because we are "rebuiliding" and he gave up a 1st. He's a straight up fool with no plan.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Because we are "rebuiliding" and he gave up a 1st. He's a straight up fool with no plan.

That has nothing to do with the fact that you criticized Dubas for not having a 1st in the past 3 of 5 drafts, when Jim Rutherford traded 2 of those 5 1sts years before Dubas was even employed by the Penguins.

 

[Pens x]

They were paid a 2nd to take him on and he's given them pretty good play so far. Not sure why he's a guy worth complaining about.

They'll hold onto him for this year and next year and might get a mid round pick for him as a rental next year, if he continues to be an effective bottom-6 center.

Rule #1 - thou shalt not trade any player from Massachusetts.

A washed up, past his prime turd, making too much money, from Beantown that no other team wanted. This is the perfect Pens player.

I am surprised he hasnt been extended yet. Maybe FSG is giving him a percentage of the team.

 

[Gurglesons]

That has nothing to do with the fact that you criticized Dubas for not having a 1st in the past 3 of 5 drafts, when Jim Rutherford traded 2 of those 5 1sts years before Dubas was even employed by the Penguins.

I was not criticizing Dubas for the 1sts that Rutherford traded. Just the one 1st that he moved for EK.

 

[SomeDude]

The real fun part is going to be watching the guys we cast off getting moved for good returns starting with Granlund this deadline. Montreal is also going to get an absolute haul for Matheson next year.

Stoked to watch EK’s game continue to decompose and Bunting do whatever he does, though.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

it's easier to move up with 1st than it is with lower picks, and we do need to move up to get our new batch of top players. geno and sid just are not going to fall into our lap again. imo

Yeah and because they're not going to get another Sid or Geno, the team needs to replace them by elevating the average throughout the team. Sorta like Vegas' composition in their inaugural year. And to do that, you have to acquire a plethora of picks, to have enough work out.

If you can't get the players for a strong 1st line, focus on all 4 lines being 2nd or 3rd line quality.
If you can't get a horse 1st pair D, have all 3 pairs be 2nd pairing quality.

You can win with depth in this league. It just requires harder work from management.

 

[SEALBound]

Dubas traded one of those firsts while JR traded the other two. Don't know why you're somehow criticizing Dubas for decisions JR made years before him.

Look who you're arguing with.

Because we are "rebuiliding" and he gave up a 1st. He's a straight up fool with no plan.

We weren't rebuilding when we traded for Karlsson.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Yeah, I think we can just concede the EK trade was a mistake at this point. He's not gonna stabilize defensively or recover his offensive/transition punch with this team/coach. I didn't expect him to remain a 100pt guy or anything, but this coach has absolutely ratf***ed the dude's game.

Not that I think this team would've been better or more entertaining with the trash they dealt to make the cap work, but it was a failed hail mary to try and get one last run outta the era and a team in this spot shouldn't have dealt the 1st + 2nd.

I'd be happy to recoup a late 1st for the guy if/when they eventually move him at this point. /shrug

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Yeah, it's exceptionally important for a team to continue to churn out legit NHL talent in order to remain relevant for the long haul. This team's drafting and development over the past decade has really f***ed 'em. That, and the coach/GMs constantly pining for dogshit players as far as vets go.

The more I watch Sullivan handle the youngsters, the more I wonder how much of our failure with draft picks is bad picks versus bad development of those picks.

I'm not the biggest fan of Poulin; I never saw the top six upside that others seemed to. However, has our club even attempted to at least TRY him in a top six role? He rarely ever gets called up and when he does it's for 4th line duty getting 6 minutes per game. Same happened with McGroarty. Maybe he's simply not ready maybe or maybe he'll never be as good as we hoped. But he didn't get a legitimate chance with Sid or Geno to see what he's got. Instead, he got relegated to the token "learn to play defense and PK" obsession Sullivan has for everyone.

Hell, not even a high pick but look at Puustinen's usage. The guy actually DID look good in his top six audition last year, but this year he had to re-earn his spot as a bottom sixer all because our coach is obsessed with using guys like Beauvillier or DOC in the top six no matter what (and that's not touching on EVER demoting Rust for shit play).

So it's like, do we really draft that poorly (possibly)? Or does this organization with Sullivan at the helm absolutely refuse to even give these guys legitimate shots in a role that might actually show their offensive upsides (definitely)?

 

[SomeDude]

I'd be happy to recoup a late 1st for the guy if/when they eventually move him at this point. /shrug

Dubas labeled him part of the core.

 

[Gurglesons]

Look who you're arguing with.

We weren't rebuilding when we traded for Karlsson.

The guy who knows Valimaki isn't a goaltender

Yeah, I think we can just concede the EK trade was a mistake at this point. He's not gonna stabilize defensively or recover his offensive/transition punch with this team/coach. I didn't expect him to remain a 100pt guy or anything, but this coach has absolutely ratf***ed the dude's game.

Not that I think this team would've been better or more entertaining with the trash they dealt to make the cap work, but it was a failed hail mary to try and get one last run outta the era and a team in this spot shouldn't have dealt the 1st + 2nd.

I'd be happy to recoup a late 1st for the guy if/when they eventually move him at this point. /shrug

I would've been fine with moving the 1st and 2nd for EK65 if they actually tried to win last year. But they didn't.

They brought in EK65 and did nothing else to improve the team.

You can say "they weren't rebuilding", but when you think one move in suddenly changes your fortunates, I can't trust that you weren't at least hedging your bets that the team wasn't gong to be competitive. And if that's what you are doing you don't give away a 1st like we did.

 

[Gurglesons]

The more I watch Sullivan handle the youngsters, the more I wonder how much of our failure with draft picks is bad picks versus bad development of those picks.

I'm not the biggest fan of Poulin; I never saw the top six upside that others seemed to. However, has our club even attempted to at least TRY him in a top six role? He rarely ever gets called up and when he does it's for 4th line duty getting 6 minutes per game. Same happened with McGroarty. Maybe he's simply not ready maybe or maybe he'll never be as good as we hoped. But he didn't get a legitimate chance with Sid or Geno to see what he's got. Instead, he got relegated to the token "learn to play defense and PK" obsession Sullivan has for everyone.

Hell, not even a high pick but look at Puustinen's usage. The guy actually DID look good in his top six audition last year, but this year he had to re-earn his spot as a bottom sixer all because our coach is obsessed with using guys like Beauvillier or DOC in the top six no matter what (and that's not touching on EVER demoting Rust for shit play).

So it's like, do we really draft that poorly (possibly)? Or does this organization with Sullivan at the helm absolutely refuse to even give these guys legitimate shots in a role that might actually show their offensive upsides (definitely)?

Yep. It's the exact argument people used against our drafting under Shero and then suddenly the team turns up a ton of young players when we get a coach that actually plays them.

It's honestly the highest level of insanity that we are literally seeing Shero / Bylsma's exact issues play out the same exact way they did after we won cups.

It makes me seriously question the organizational foundation and that's without even getting into the fact we brought in a career loser in Kyle Dubas.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yep. It's the exact argument people used against our drafting under Shero and then suddenly the team turns up a ton of young players when we get a coach that actually plays them.

It's honestly the highest level of insanity that we are literally seeing Shero / Bylsma's exact issues play out the same exact way they did after we won cups.

It makes me seriously question the organizational foundation and that's without even getting into the fact we brought in a career loser in Kyle Dubas.

There's basically 2 1/2 reasons with a side of Phil Kessel this franchise has done f***-all the last 20 years. And none of it has anything to do with coaching or management IMO. Didn't stop those dorks from thinking they shit gold, though.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The more I watch Sullivan handle the youngsters, the more I wonder how much of our failure with draft picks is bad picks versus bad development of those picks.

I'm not the biggest fan of Poulin; I never saw the top six upside that others seemed to. However, has our club even attempted to at least TRY him in a top six role? He rarely ever gets called up and when he does it's for 4th line duty getting 6 minutes per game. Same happened with McGroarty. Maybe he's simply not ready maybe or maybe he'll never be as good as we hoped. But he didn't get a legitimate chance with Sid or Geno to see what he's got. Instead, he got relegated to the token "learn to play defense and PK" obsession Sullivan has for everyone.

Hell, not even a high pick but look at Puustinen's usage. The guy actually DID look good in his top six audition last year, but this year he had to re-earn his spot as a bottom sixer all because our coach is obsessed with using guys like Beauvillier or DOC in the top six no matter what (and that's not touching on EVER demoting Rust for shit play).

So it's like, do we really draft that poorly (possibly)? Or does this organization with Sullivan at the helm absolutely refuse to even give these guys legitimate shots in a role that might actually show their offensive upsides (definitely)?

Yeah, like, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to absolve Sullivan or defend him here. He cannot or outright refuses to coach young players unless they arrive as a more or less finished product. I've been calling Sullivan a fraud and wanting him fired for half a decade at this point. Dude sucks shit and he's an annoyingly egotistical prick to boot.

I just also think the scouting, drafting and development have been wretched at both the pro and amateur levels. Which very likely goes back to who this team targets based on said coach, to be fair.

The guy who knows Valimaki isn't a goaltender



I would've been fine with moving the 1st and 2nd for EK65 if they actually tried to win last year. But they didn't.

They brought in EK65 and did nothing else to improve the team.

You can say "they weren't rebuilding", but when you think one move in suddenly changes your fortunates, I can't trust that you weren't at least hedging your bets that the team wasn't gong to be competitive. And if that's what you are doing you don't give away a 1st like we did.

Oh, I've always felt like Dubas just went for EK cuz he fell into his lap. Not as one move among many to try and fix things.

I mean, it's been clear they haven't genuinely given a shit about going for it and winning for years. They refuse to make the most simple move of all which is replacing the coach that's guided them on his steep and steady decline. Shit, it was apparently like pulling teeth to fire Todd f***ing Reirden. This is an unserious, and deeply unlikable organization.

 

[Gurglesons]

There's basically 2 1/2 reasons with a side of Phil Kessel this franchise has done f***-all the last 20 years. And none of it has anything to do with coaching or management IMO. Didn't stop those dorks from thinking they shit gold, though.

Phil Kessel.. hm... Who traded him us again?

Shit man. That trade is nearly an identical read of what we got for Guentzel... UGH.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Phil Kessel.. hm... Who traded him us again?

He has glasses. So he's smart.

And heaven knows advanced metrics have really turned out to be super accurate and a great base to build a team upon.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

There's basically 2 1/2 reasons with a side of Phil Kessel this franchise has done f***-all the last 20 years. And none of it has anything to do with coaching or management IMO. Didn't stop those dorks from thinking they shit gold, though.

Sid and Geno have made a ton of money and careers for a whoooooooooooole lotta people, man. From owners, FO dorks, coaches, and players.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

There's basically 2 1/2 reasons with a side of Phil Kessel this franchise has done f***-all the last 20 years. And none of it has anything to do with coaching or management IMO. Didn't stop those dorks from thinking they shit gold, though.

Yeah, I don't think any other Cup winner has been so dependent on 2 guys as the Penguins have the past two decades. Take the two best players off each Cup winner since 2005 and I'll bet you the vast majority of those rosters still look like contenders. Take Sid and Geno off the Penguins and is it even a safe bet to make the playoffs most seasons?

When you think about the roster they've been surrounded by the majority of their careers, it truly is remarkable Sid and Geno have 3 Cups. Just goes to show how good the two of them have been.

 

[Gurglesons]

He has glasses. So he's smart.

And heaven knows advanced metrics have really turned out to be super accurate and a great base to build a team upon.

He doesn't even use metrics lol.

Kapanen, 1st, 3rd, Spaling, Harrington.

That's TWO 1sts, a 2nd, a 3rd and a roster player that can bring back another 2nd or 3rd! Plus he's a great role player!

You gotta make that kinda trade when you don't have any prospects. Jump start the rebuild!

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Yeah, like, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to absolve Sullivan or defend him here. He cannot or outright refuses to coach young players unless they arrive as a more or less finished product. I've been calling Sullivan a fraud and wanting him fired for half a decade at this point. Dude sucks shit and he's an annoyingly egotistical prick to boot.

I just also think the scouting, drafting and development have been wretched at both the pro and amateur levels. Which very likely goes back to who this team targets based on said coach, to be fair.

Oh, trust me. I haven't been that high on a lot of our picks/prospects, probably to the degree people probably have me on ignore because I don't fluff up every mediocre prospect we have. I'm just more annoyed at the fact our club doesn't even try these guys in good spots. Instead it's like "Poulin can't produce getting 6 minutes per night on the 4th line? Send him down!"

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

He doesn't even use metrics lol.

Kapanen, 1st, 3rd, Spaling, Harrington.

That's a TWO 1sts, a 2nd, a 3rd and a roster player that can bring back another 2nd or 3rd! Plus he's a great role player!

You gotta make that kinda trade when you don't have any prospects. Jump start the rebuild!

I just mean that Dubas cut his teeth on being the metrics whiz, right? Not quite the Moneyball wizardry everyone wanted it to be. At least not yet.

Yeah, I don't think any other Cup winner has been so dependent on 2 guys as the Penguins have the past two decades. Take the two best players off each Cup winner since 2005 and I'll bet you the vast majority of those rosters still look like contenders. Take Sid and Geno off the Penguins and is it even a safe bet to make the playoffs most seasons?

When you think about the roster they've been surrounded by the majority of their careers, it truly is remarkable Sid and Geno have 3 Cups. Just goes to show how good the two of them have been.

Look at the trail of mediocre to flat out garbage players those two have left in their wake once they left their line/team. Malkin made Talbot like 20M dollars or something ridiculous like that lol

 

[Gurglesons]

Oh, I've always felt like Dubas just went for EK cuz he fell into his lap. Not as one move among many to try and fix things.

I mean, it's been clear they haven't genuinely given a shit about going for it and winning for years. They refuse to make the most simple move of all which is replacing the coach that's guided them on his steep and steady decline. Shit, it was apparently like pulling teeth to fire Todd f***ing Reirden. This is an unserious, and deeply unlikable organization.

It's just so funny how many people act like it was this absolute slam dunk when we have EK65 in media today being pissy about his performance here.

You know EK65 is getting turfed over Sully too. So we'll probably retain 50% for a 2nd and some prospect that everyone on here will tell me is an amazing piece and he'll be in the A until he is 24 just like Poulin.

I just mean that Dubas cut his teeth on being the metrics whiz, right? Not quite the Moneyball wizardry everyone wanted it to be. At least not yet.

No. Dubas has been a hockey guy since day one. For some reason people think he's an analytics guru because of his glasses, but he came up through the OHL as a standard hockey path guy.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Also I haven't been around for like a week and thank goodness for that.

This Jarry shit is getting f***in' WEIRD, man.

No. Dubas has been a hockey guy since day one. For some reason people think he's an analytics guru because of his glasses, but he came up through the OHL as a standard hockey path guy.

Oh. No idea who I was thinking of, then.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Oh, trust me. I haven't been that high on a lot of our picks/prospects, probably to the degree people probably have me on ignore because I don't fluff up every mediocre prospect we have. I'm just more annoyed at the fact our club doesn't even try these guys in good spots. Instead it's like "Poulin can't produce getting 6 minutes per night on the 4th line? Send him down!"

They've shown time and time again that they're entirely comfortable running with half a dozen guys on the roster who are flat out dogshit hockey players. It'll never make sense to me that they only accept players being dogshit as long as they're vets. If a young guy has to actually be coached or needs to learn on the job while playing through the inevitable growing pains--they're shit outta luck.

Like, Bunting and Beau are AHL fodder, but they're finished products and have zero hope of improving. What the hell are we even doing here?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Oh also also... lol Bunting

Entirely predictable.