Salary Cap: Pens '24-'25 Salary Thread: The Crosbicles Volume XIX

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean... they drafted the OTHER Sammy's kid and he busted hard. Might as well take a crack at the other one, eh?

The one saving grace for the Pens in that regard is if you look around the league there's a lot of struggling teams. They somehow haven't played themselves into too deep a hole yet.

Yeah but those struggling teams will likely come around and work themselves into form. This team will not.

 

[Pancakes]

Yeah but those struggling teams will likely come around and work themselves into form. This team will not.

Yeah I don't see it happening either. I used to be in the "never bet against Sid and Geno" mode but well...the past two years prove that even Sid and Geno can't always plug the bleeding.

And we all know Sullivan isn't getting fired so there's no hope of a new coach bump

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah I don't see it happening either. I used to be in the "never bet against Sid and Geno" mode but well...the past two years prove that even Sid and Geno can't always plug the bleeding.

And we all know Sullivan isn't getting fired so there's no hope of a new coach bump

It's just not reasonable for us to expect near-40 Geno and even Sid to carry a bunch of mediocrity, anymore. That should have been addressed nearly immediately after or at least as soon as possible after they dumped Phil. But they chose to surround their already-aging core with a bunch of filler, instead. Under the auspices of "depth" or "playing the right way" or whatever other platitudes.

Talent wins. As the core's talent wanes with age they have not backfilled that talent vacuum left behind. You can't zero-event try-hard your way to a Cup in this league. Despite whatever dumb shit this team has chosen to believe.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

How could anyone call this roster anything other than abhorrent? They lost Rust... Bryan flippin' "60 points in a awesome year" Rust and as a result had to blow up their second line just to stay afloat. THAT is how great their depth is. They lost Jake Guentzel and his like 40 goals and 90 points and replaced him by committee with Hayes, Beauvillier, Glass and Lizotte. The defense is bloated and ineffectual and the goaltending is a mixture of trash and too young to tell. The best wing is Raks who went like half a season last year with single digit goals.

Let me make it abundantly clear that I despise Sullivan and am POSITIVE nearly any other coach could at least get MORE out of these guys. But this roster f***ing sucks and was likely designed to suck. And if it wasn't then Kyle Dubas just put another mark on his "I'm an absolute buffoon" tally.

They didn't blow up the second line to stay afloat.

Sullivan had no idea how to get Sid going while all the other lines were working. Mate don't act like this was the f***ing situation. L2-L4 was the one thing we all stated was good and that Sid's line was ass. So one player goes down and Sullivan f***ed up 3 other lines to move Geno to Sid's wing? The roster isn't great but it's not awful either.

It's coached poorly in a shit system. But in the canucks game, the moment Rust went down he went full in for the two headed monster shit while still not fixing his shit system or not ruining the other lines.

The team went from having depth scoring and Geno producing well on the 2nd line to zero depth scoring and Sid getting happy points so brain dead morons can jerk off to his stat padding while that line stacking was never the solution. Sid needed Raks that was obvious. But that would mean while Rust is out, Sullivan would have to do something he hates doing...

Putting players like Puustinen and Puljujarvi in higher up roles. So instead of doing that he stacked the first line and still f***ed the rest up.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I dunno. The Caps are getting key contributions from a young core of players. McMichael and Protas are having terrific seasons. So is Dylan Strome. They picked up Dubois and Chychrun and Sandin who are all sub 30 year old players playing well.

Sullivan's a doofus but there's just no room for those kinds of young player contributions on the Pens because we don't have those young players. The Caps decided to get younger before the Pens did and they're reaping the benefits of it.

I agree with this to a point. But it is easy to say we don't have those players when Sullivan scratches a 26-year-old talented winger despite great point production vis-a-vis his playing time.

Both things are true.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

They didn't blow up the second line to stay afloat.

Sullivan had no idea how to get Sid going while all the other lines were working. Mate don't act like this was the f***ing situation. L2-L4 was the one thing we all stated was good and that Sid's line was ass. So one player goes down and Sullivan f***ed up 3 other lines to move Geno to Sid's wing? The roster isn't great but it's not awful either.

It's coached poorly in a shit system. But in the canucks game, the moment Rust went down he went full in for the two headed monster shit while still not fixing his shit system or not ruining the other lines.

The team went from having depth scoring and Geno producing well on the 2nd line to zero depth scoring and Sid getting happy points so brain dead morons can jerk off to his stat padding while that line stacking was never the solution. Sid needed Raks that was obvious. But that would mean while Rust is out, Sullivan would have to do something he hates doing...

Putting players like Puustinen and Puljujarvi in higher up roles. So instead of doing that he stacked the first line and still f***ed the rest up.

There is some truth to this but it's only one facet of the roster. It doesn't address their lack of any talent in the top six, their miserably overpaid and underperforming defense or their wobbly goaltending.

I think Malkin is by rights a center and is generally done a disservice not playing center. And I find it a bit eyeroll worthy regardless of how much I respect and appreciate Crosby that the minute he struggles Malkin is uprooted to help but when it's the other way around the only thing Malkin gets is rocks thrown at him by everyone from the fans to the GM, dumped off the first PP unit and progressively shittier linemates.

BUT... I can also see how at least as a stopgap it might have been the best move or at least I can understand. It HAS worked to a degree, after all. And as much as I want to believe in guys like Puus and Pulju I look at them more as depth guys and less as players that would deliver in a larger role. I could be wrong about that... we haven't seen much of it after all and when Puus was given a bit of a chance he did OK. But sample sizes are a thing and the odds and numbers say that the "young" guys we have available aren't much to write home about.

I'm sorry I just can't see this roster as anything but utterly mediocre even with the best coach you could possibly find for them. The GM made sure of that this past year.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

It has been the MO of this franchise for most of the last 20 years. When Sid is struggling, fix his line A S A P regardless of what the repercussions are. At least in this case, Malkin is moved UP instead of being given worse wingers to work with.

What will be more head-scratching is when Sullivan takes Rakell off the top unit because Bryan Rust is back.

I will be absolutely shocked if that is not the case. In fact, that first line better put up a few goals tonight at Carolina if we want to see it intact. I doubt Malkin is moving back to C anytime soon. This coach does not love his defense and never has. This may have been the plan all along.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It's funny because I don't even know that Sullivan has anything to complain about re: Malkin's defense the last several seasons. He's been fine this year and was fine last year.

If he HAS to play wing all season I hope they at least are smart enough to move him to his shooting side. They won't but it's nice to think about.

 

[Gurglesons]

I dunno. The Caps are getting key contributions from a young core of players. McMichael and Protas are having terrific seasons. So is Dylan Strome. They picked up Dubois and Chychrun and Sandin who are all sub 30 year old players playing well.

Sullivan's a doofus but there's just no room for those kinds of young player contributions on the Pens because we don't have those young players. The Caps decided to get younger before the Pens did and they're reaping the benefits of it.

Caps actually play their young players.

Also, all summer I was arguing we should acquire Dubois and Chychrun. Now we are going to act like they have sub 30 year old players.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If the coach has issues with Geno's defensive game, boy is he gonna flip shit when he sees how absolutely awful Sid and his line's been defensively for years.

 

[Fordy]

he's no defensive stalwart like rust and formerly guentzel

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

If the coach has issues with Geno's defensive game, boy is he gonna flip shit when he sees how absolutely awful Sid and his line's been defensively for years.

I'd actually have been fine with the top line selling out on offense in order to push the pace and win games but like... that wasn't really happening and it's bizarre for the coach to be OK with that but utterly melt down every time his OTHER scoring line center turns the puck over all while playing largely with trash.

he's no defensive stalwart like rust and formerly guentzel

It's so weird to me that some fans still consider Rust as like... gritty and defensively responsible. Goes to show that people tend to just repeat talking points long past actually paying any attention.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

There is some truth to this but it's only one facet of the roster. It doesn't address their lack of any talent in the top six, their miserably overpaid and underperforming defense or their wobbly goaltending.

I think Malkin is by rights a center and is generally done a disservice not playing center. And I find it a bit eyeroll worthy regardless of how much I respect and appreciate Crosby that the minute he struggles Malkin is uprooted to help but when it's the other way around the only thing Malkin gets is rocks thrown at him by everyone from the fans to the GM, dumped off the first PP unit and progressively shittier linemates.

BUT... I can also see how at least as a stopgap it might have been the best move or at least I can understand. It HAS worked to a degree, after all. And as much as I want to believe in guys like Puus and Pulju I look at them more as depth guys and less as players that would deliver in a larger role. I could be wrong about that... we haven't seen much of it after all and when Puus was given a bit of a chance he did OK. But sample sizes are a thing and the odds and numbers say that the "young" guys we have available aren't much to write home about.

I'm sorry I just can't see this roster as anything but utterly mediocre even with the best coach you could possibly find for them. The GM made sure of that this past year.

Second paragraph is basically it mate. Sid is pure ass and needed help so they f***ed up the entire roster to help him and can't realize how stupid it is. So Geno loses Rakell and then Rust gets hurt and he ends up being the winger that gets taken off his own line to help Sid. The irony lol.

Sid and Rakell fix a lot of issues in Sid's game that are permanent - defensive lapses, etc. It just is at this point and there's no need to pretend it isn't. But if they do that, then give Geno the benefit of wingers that he can create offense with. If it's Bunting and Puljujarvi then fine, then give Eller the benefit of Doc and Puustinen so Eller can start scoring again and make the 4th line Beauvillier, Lizotte, Glass.

Acciari sucks shit. I wish he'd f*** off already.

An absolute twat of a human being is even confused why Geno is with Sid and that it isn't needed, in Josh Yohe. When a brain dead idiot like him can even see it and Sullivan keeps doing it, bad times mate. When even his biggest boot lickers are confused.

 

[cygnus47]

I'd actually have been fine with the top line selling out on offense in order to push the pace and win games but like... that wasn't really happening and it's bizarre for the coach to be OK with that but utterly melt down every time his OTHER scoring line center turns the puck over all while playing largely with trash.



It's so weird to me that some fans still consider Rust as like... gritty and defensively responsible. Goes to show that people tend to just repeat talking points long past actually paying any attention.

Like people that think we still play a speed game, or that we don't collapse to our own net.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Like people that think we still play a speed game, or that we don't collapse to our own net.

Exactly.

I literally can't help but reflexively shake my head every time someone talks about the Penguins playing with "speed and skill."

Like... what f***ing year is it, man?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

One of the biggest issues is bench management and always will be and I will never stop mentioning it while Sullivan is here.

There’s this notion with Crosby that he’s this 200ft beast and he really hasn’t been that great for a couple of years, consistently anyway. Malkin was better defensively last year and this year, but the Pens media wank to him like he’s Bergeron level of a 2-way C and he isn’t even half as good as Bergeron at any point. But look at Crosby’s EV minutes and he’s playing 4-5mins more per game than Ovechkin is, sure Ovy is playing more on the powerplay per game - about 2mins more, but his total ice time per game is 18:11 vs Crosby’s 20:26.

And Ovechkin hasn’t even been remotely as much of a liability as Crosby has been this season, his Corsi, fenwick, etc whatever one, pick one, is far better than Crosby’s. A major part of that is identifying usage, Carbery uses Ovechkin to the best of his abilities that helps the team, Sullivan thinks he uses Crosby to the best of his abilities at the expense of the team.

Crosby’s offense isn’t an issue, his defensive game is. So maybe limiting his EV minutes and minor or so less per game to see how that works and adding wingers that makes him more of an offensive weapon instead of this dipshit “hurr durr look at Crosby back checking one time, he’s a god!” Like who gives a f***. Sid was always better on the forecheck than he ever was on the back check, Malkin is far better than him with stripping the puck on the back check.

It’s been less about Sid needing a Jake Guentzel again than it’s been Sid needing to be the Jake Guentzel on his f***ing line. You put Rakell there, fine, but the LW needs to be as good as Raks is defensively and it should force Crosby to be the scorer and shooter. It’s funny how so many coaches realize this with older players but Sullivan is the most clueless stupid f*** in the league.

DeBoer understood with Pavelski, Benn, and Seguin.
Carbery with Ovechkin
Etc…

Sullivan has zero issues limiting Malkin’s minutes, but Crosby? He feeds him as much as he wants and then shortens the shit out of the bench, at 37 they shouldn’t be playing him 20+ a game, that’s moronic. Not a single player on the Washington Capitals plays 20mins a night for their forwards, there’s a better balance there, bench management especially at Evenstrength. Then there’s the Penguins, Rust plays almost as much as Sid does, Malkin gets bumped up when Sully’s desperate and if he’s going to train them that hard in practices, maybe read the f***ing room, these blokes are old as shit just how he likes it, which means they’re likely mentally zapped as well trying to make a shitty system work and having to work harder than they need to because of it and shitty usage.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'd actually have been fine with the top line selling out on offense in order to push the pace and win games but like... that wasn't really happening and it's bizarre for the coach to be OK with that but utterly melt down every time his OTHER scoring line center turns the puck over all while playing largely with trash.



It's so weird to me that some fans still consider Rust as like... gritty and defensively responsible. Goes to show that people tend to just repeat talking points long past actually paying any attention.

Rust bas been a passenger for a couple of years. Hes not the winger i was a huge fan of for a while. Even with Geno he was mostly shit but produced so it masks it to a lot but he was a defensive mess with Geno too. They should have moved him in the summer imo and still should at the deadline as they wouldn't need to retain at all when moving him. They can take a bad contract back from another team that can retain for them if need be. But I move Rust as the first forward before the deadline and then move down the list - Eller, Acciari, etc and then Pettersson on D has to go and I'd even move Grzelcyk if Boston wants him back.

If they've compiled enough assets that losing some is fine, then trading Jarry with those assets is the other move. I would then just do 1 of the cap space for picks shit in the summer and not more and leave 3-4 spots for youth.

Also fire the f*** out of Sullivan and let the new coach decide if he wants Quinn around and hopefully Vellucci finds a head coaching gig somewhere. Hopefully that also sparks interest in the Pens Gm job and Dubas can step back and allow that GM to do his job. It's a shame Tulsky never wanted to leave.

Exactly.

I literally can't help but reflexively shake my head every time someone talks about the Penguins playing with "speed and skill."

Like... what f***ing year is it, man?

We don't have slow players, they play a system that doesn't make sense with either type. That's the issue. Pens have shown they can play quick when Sullivan goes to a passive 1-2-2 but then he doesn't know how to adjust it so he uses it for a period and stops.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Ugh, I was trying to find what trade idea I had for Roslovic years ago and noticed the search feature is wonky, it doesn’t go back far enough it but I stumbled on a post in which I wanted Roslovic and Harkins, which I mean to my defense, Harkins wasn’t pure ass yet, was just an ass seedling.

Honour Over Glory​

Blomqvist for Vezina + ROTY​

Jan 30, 201281,01245,508

• Aug 29, 2017
• 
  
• #143

Jets are a team that is really deep with C's...

Guys like Little, Lowry, Scheifele, Perreault, Copp are their guys right now, all very young except Little and Perreault.

I'd look at maybe trying to pick up Harkins or Roslovic from them.

Either of them is perfect imo, both skate well, Harkins has more of an edge to his game, Roslovic is the quicker one (He's from Columbus too, just a big middle finger to the intense rivalry with them).

I think we'd have to lose Jarry to pick up one of these guys though, the Jets are desperate for some sort of future goalie.

I mean, no wait, yeah Harkins would probably be even worse if he was a prospect under Sullivan, which is insane to think about lol. I mean this is after he put up 72pts in his final year in PG and joined the AHL for 4 games and looked good, he could have developed differently? Wait why I am defending this shit.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I went off what Werner and FSG stated before this season. Which was making the team younger, Dubas and Co getting them back to the playoffs etc.

Werner is also a f***ing moron so there's also that....

https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/penguins/2024/10/09/tom-werner-fenway-sports-group-mike-sullivan-sidney-crosby-season-opener/stories/202410090126

Tom Werner: Fenway Sports Group 'confident in Kyle Dubas' vision' for Penguins

Fenway Sports Group chairman Tom Werner sat down with Sidney Crosby in March of last season when it looked like the Penguins' playoff hopes were all but dead.

www.dkpittsburghsports.com

You misspelled Mike Sullivan.

Good thing they gave Dubas those extra resources, otherwise we'd look like shit and have a losing record! Wait.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Like people that think we still play a speed game, or that we don't collapse to our own net.

People really don't like watching the games, and I don't blame them for that, we are horrible to watch. But we haven't played a speed game for half a decade, and if anyone should know that, it should be the damned coaches.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

People really don't like watching the games, and I don't blame them for that, we are horrible to watch. But we haven't played a speed game for half a decade, and if anyone should know that, it should be the damned coaches.

They essentially gave up on that the moment the 2017-18 season began really. They traded away or didn’t sign a lot of their “speedy” players and it slowly started to take shape as Sullivan’s idea of what the team should be, the only caveat was Sid wanted an enforcer and JR got him Reaves which Sullivan pouted about and wanted Big Game Ass.

From the 2nd Cup Roster and into 2017-18 season: Daley, Archibald, Wilson, Cullen, Bonino (not really quick at all), Kunitz (done at that point), Kuhnhackl, Rowney, Cole (Traded), etc…

Added - Oleksiak, Sheahan, Brassard, Reaves (then traded), Hunwick (yikes), beginning of the ZAR era lol…

The funniest shit was Sullivan was never happy with anything, he had Riley Sheahan pop up as a reclamation project from Detroit and he goes and has a huge bounce back season and plays like a solid 3C option and he’s miraculously a player that WORKS in Sullivan’s dipshit usage and he f***s that up for his want for Brassard. This is when I really noticed his f***ing stupid usage, Sheahan as the blueprint for how Sullivan planned to use the bottom 6 without Tocchet’s input anymore.

He never once used players the way he used Sheahan, Blueger, etc with insane DZ starts, if you go back and look at Bones and Cullen, only after Cullen returns sans Tocchet, he gets 84% DZ starts, he’s been doing it ever since. This is why I always felt Sullivan’s system is 2017/18-now, 2015-2017 is a hybrid of Bylsma/MJ/Tocchet/Sullivan. A lot of those warts, where he plays journeymen vets over youth, starts in 2017-18 and continues through 3 GM’s.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Good thing they gave Dubas those extra resources, otherwise we'd look like shit and have a losing record! Wait.

Lol, FSG wanted Dubas so bad for the GM role and pouted that he wasn’t available so they strung along multiple candidates through 2nd wave interviews, talked up Tulsky, wanted a fellow beantown wanker in Greeley, etc and then when Dubas became available, they went after him hard and Dubas turns around and says nah I don’t want the GM job, I want Burke’s old job with a new title, lol. So he goes through interviews again, Tulsky at this point is likely like f*** this, Darche was never going to leave, Greeley made more sense for the role Dubas took instead, and so it seemed like he took the GM role at the behest of FSG with the stipulation of it being something he steps away from, most likely given all the things we know and how it played out.

I always felt he never wanted the GM role and that either others said f*** that or FSG wanted him to do both and it just took Kyle a bit to come around to it.

I would wager that if Toronto realized Shanahan needed to go and fired his ass and kept Dubas, he would have assumed a similar President of Hockey Ops role and hired a new GM in Toronto and the Penguins likely would have hired Tulsky as the GM and Greeley as the Director of Hockey Ops (rather than the more bougie title of President). I think both Greeley and Tulsky would have ended up firing Sullivan by pushing FSG as the first decision they needed to make.

 

[pistolpete11]

BUT... I can also see how at least as a stopgap it might have been the best move or at least I can understand. It HAS worked to a degree, after all. And as much as I want to believe in guys like Puus and Pulju I look at them more as depth guys and less as players that would deliver in a larger role. I could be wrong about that... we haven't seen much of it after all and when Puus was given a bit of a chance he did OK. But sample sizes are a thing and the odds and numbers say that the "young" guys we have available aren't much to write home about.

But like...what's the harm in trying it? Puusy or Poolparty working out is not likely, but this team is going to need to get lucky. Can't get lucky if you never take the shot.

Even when Rust comes back, they still need to find another guy capable of playing in the top 6. Wasting time on something you know is not going to work long term just seems....kinda desperate. Like, let's be just good enough so we can all keep our jobs.



Although, that's not the biggest issue anyway. They are a complete mess defensively and that comes down to coaching.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I'm trying to think back to my 30 years of watching this league...
What coaches have had immunity from failure to this extent? What are some egregious cases?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'm trying to think back to my 30 years of watching this league...
What coaches have had immunity from failure to this extent? What are some egregious cases?

THIS is the most egregious case.

I've racked my brain (lol for whatever little THAT is worth) and looked at all time tenure lists and Sullivan is kinda king of the shit pile as far as I can tell.

But like...what's the harm in trying it? Puusy or Poolparty working out is not likely, but this team is going to need to get lucky. Can't get lucky if you never take the shot.

Even when Rust comes back, they still need to find another guy capable of playing in the top 6. Wasting time on something you know is not going to work long term just seems....kinda desperate. Like, let's be just good enough so we can all keep our jobs.



Although, that's not the biggest issue anyway. They are a complete mess defensively and that comes down to coaching.

You are absolutely right that there is no harm trying at this point. I think Malkin needs to go back to center.