Salary Cap: Pens '23-'24 Salary Cap Thread: "But if you don't get the President of the Pittsburgh Penguins on that phone, you know what's gonna happen to you?"

[SEALBound]

I like Eller and I like what I've been seeing out of Zohorna so I would keep them together. I would then start to rotate in and out the other guys. DOC has been...okay, but underwhelming. His performance is at the level where you can safely stick him on the 4th line to try other combinations. I would be rotating in Nieto and, especially, Accari to the 3RW slot. Neither of them have ever been considered offensive dynamos but there's a part of me that is saying "are they THIS bad?" The 4th line isn't sustainable. They shouldn't be counted on for real production but they can certainly chip in every now and then. As is, you're looking at one, maybe two chances a game? +/- isn't terrible but over the long haul, you need something to change and the "maybe if they get another 10 games they'll figure it out" doesn't cut it.

Z-Eller-Accari
Nieto-DOC-Carter

Z-Eller-Nieto
DOC-Accari-Carter

Z-Eller-Hinostranza
Nieto-Accari-DOC

Z-EIller-Accari
Nieto-DOC-Hinostranza

There's just way too many things that can be done at the moment to shake things up. This is McGinn-Carter-Kapanen all over again. Hell, with Rakell having 1pt in 8 games, I maybe even swap him and Rust.

 

[pistolpete11]

I like Eller and I like what I've been seeing out of Zohorna so I would keep them together. I would then start to rotate in and out the other guys. DOC has been...okay, but underwhelming. His performance is at the level where you can safely stick him on the 4th line to try other combinations. I would be rotating in Nieto and, especially, Accari to the 3RW slot. Neither of them have ever been considered offensive dynamos but there's a part of me that is saying "are they THIS bad?" The 4th line isn't sustainable. They shouldn't be counted on for real production but they can certainly chip in every now and then. As is, you're looking at one, maybe two chances a game? +/- isn't terrible but over the long haul, you need something to change and the "maybe if they get another 10 games they'll figure it out" doesn't cut it.

Z-Eller-Accari
Nieto-DOC-Carter

Z-Eller-Nieto
DOC-Accari-Carter

Z-Eller-Hinostranza
Nieto-Accari-DOC

Z-EIller-Accari
Nieto-DOC-Hinostranza

There's just way too many things that can be done at the moment to shake things up. This is McGinn-Carter-Kapanen all over again. Hell, with Rakell having 1pt in 8 games, I maybe even swap him and Rust.

You're not trusting the process enough.

 

[Sideline]

Real goals? Are you crazy? Those are advanced stats! He has charts and stuff. That's more important than the box score.

Eye test matches the fancy stats. Sid and Geno are creating plenty of chances. Zohorna and Eller are the best guys in the bottom six. The fourth line is hot garbage.

 

[vodeni]

This idea that Top 6 is fine , there is something wrong about it..

Gotta account for all the goals for/against during partial line changes too. For example Eller got an assist with Malkin on the ice. I'm not sure that they are tracking those combinations that barely see time together.
Nevertheless your point stands that the offense from the top 9 is pretty good, for sure.

View attachment 760169
Anything over 2.00 is a healthy rate for top-six. You'd like your superstar producers to be around 2.2-2.5 by season's end.
If you got bottom-sixer regulars at 1.8 or higher in April, that's excellent too.

View attachment 760170

GCR at 4.76 GA P/60 is a problem. Some of those GA had nothing to do with them though, of course.
The PP is probably problem #1 right now. It's at -5 GFAx, while at even-strength we're close to breaking even.
The 4th line hasn't scored, but only 1 goal against in 60 minutes TOI is terrific on the flipside. There's only so much blame we can attach to them.

I was unaware that Sid and Geno are below point per game 5 on 5...Geno's line threading water even after palying reasonably well in some games, GCR giving up almost 5 goals per 60 is way too much...if this is standard for L1 and L2 we need some magic on PP, Goaltending and dman to score way more.

 

[SEALBound]

You're not trusting the process enough.

Is this the process? We have to give in, let ourselves hit bottom...then allow Sullivan to rebuild us?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Rakell could use a bit of a wake up call. Throw him on the 3rd and see if DOC or Zoho are even a fraction of the players people seem to think by promoting them for a couple games.

DOC's been disappointing, man. Thought he finally figured it out and got some confidence after his pre-season and he's been utter trash out there.

 

[pistolpete11]

Rakell could use a bit of a wake up call. Throw him on the 3rd and see if DOC or Zoho are even a fraction of the players people seem to think by promoting them for a couple games.

DOC's been disappointing, man. Thought he finally figured it out and got some confidence after his pre-season and he's been utter trash out there.

Wait, are you telling me a couple of preseason games aren't as good of an indication as previous seasons of real games? Ok, lesson learned. I'm sure nobody around here will overreact to preseason next year.

But I am with you. Give it a try. It's not like it's going to cost us games that we would otherwise be winning. Worst case scenario, you change it back.

This idea that Top 6 is fine , there is something wrong about it..

I was unaware that Sid and Geno are below point per game 5 on 5...Geno's line threading water even after palying reasonably well in some games, GCR giving up almost 5 goals per 60 is way too much...if this is standard for L1 and L2 we need some magic on PP, Goaltending and dman to score way more.

Of course they are below a point per game at 5-on-5.

Wait, are people expecting them to be over a point per game 5-on-5? That's not something they were doing even in their primes outside of maybe some injury shortened seasons. That's not even something McDavid can maintain.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The top 6 isn't a problem. The bottom 6 has, what - 2 or 3 goals? We aren't getting enough from the bottom 6. 4th line has nothing. Eller has been coming alive a bit but still, 3pts in 8 games while the wings have 1 or 2 points over 8 games...it's just not enough.

The team has 4 goals without Crosby or Malkin on the ice in 8 games. If you're expecting much more than that, you have wildly unrealistic expectations for how a bottom-6 should be producing, especially in the ice time/usage they're getting.

The only issue with this team's production at 5v5 is the 4th line doesn't have a goal, but at the same time they've also only been on the ice for 1 goal. This team is fine at 5v5.

 

[vodeni]

The team has 4 goals without Crosby or Malkin on the ice in 8 games. If you're expecting much more than that, you have wildly unrealistic expectations for how a bottom-6 should be producing, especially in the ice time/usage they're getting.

The only issue with this team's production at 5v5 is the 4th line doesn't have a goal, but at the same time they've also only been on the ice for 1 goal. This team is fine at 5v5.

mostly agree with this, a few other things: timing...It would be nice to see that some of the goals from L3 or L4 come when L1 and L2 is stuck, or have heavy matchups, or in the funk, ...you know just like during the glory days, also even if they are not scoring, it would be nice during times when l1 and l2 are out of funk, to go out there and start crashing bodies, flipping the ice, hitting...not retrieve in their shell and just kind of colapse....Thats how teams that win do..
The other thing is defense, and I mean scoring from defense, we are so far really underwheming considering who we have there, Letang, EK, etc...that is a major issue when it comes to production for me...L1 and L2 need some pick me up occasionally..

Wait, are you telling me a couple of preseason games aren't as good of an indication as previous seasons of real games? Ok, lesson learned. I'm sure nobody around here will overreact to preseason next year.

But I am with you. Give it a try. It's not like it's going to cost us games that we would otherwise be winning. Worst case scenario, you change it back.


Of course they are below a point per game at 5-on-5.

Wait, are people expecting them to be over a point per game 5-on-5? That's not something they were doing even in their primes outside of maybe some injury shortened seasons. That's not even something McDavid can maintain.

well we know they don't score on PP and will never score again, so they better score 5 on 5

 

[eXile3]

what about real goals, however? Lol

Yep, and trap like hell when you get a lead, like Ottawa did against the Pens…they played 1-2-2 against the Avs that was very successful and then they nuked it against Ottawa lol…do you want to win boys or not?

A lot of fancy stats to tell us the top 6 is carrying the production. Pretty sure we could already tell.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Real goals? Are you crazy? Those are advanced stats! He has charts and stuff. That's more important than the box score.

Need a stat like rGF and rGA. The lower case letter makes real goals kosher from a stats perspective

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Wait, are you telling me a couple of preseason games aren't as good of an indication as previous seasons of real games? Ok, lesson learned. I'm sure nobody around here will overreact to preseason next year.

But I am with you. Give it a try. It's not like it's going to cost us games that we would otherwise be winning. Worst case scenario, you change it back.


Of course they are below a point per game at 5-on-5.

Wait, are people expecting them to be over a point per game 5-on-5? That's not something they were doing even in their primes outside of maybe some injury shortened seasons. That's not even something McDavid can maintain.

I was being semi sarcastic because I can't really stand the weird fascination this fanbase has with an unsigned undrafted college FA who plays like a career AHLer.

Though I did hope he would at least be somewhat noticeable tbf. The last part stands; he's been just as trash as he's always been.

-edit- misspoke

 

[Empoleon8771]

A lot of fancy stats to tell us the top 6 is carrying the production. Pretty sure we could already tell.

I mean, the top-6 is making like 5x what the bottom-6 is making and they're being put in the roles to produce. So I don't know what you expect there.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I mean, the top-6 is making like 5x what the bottom-6 is making and they're being put in the roles to produce. So I don't know what you expect there.

And the folks of the top 6 inhabit the failing powerplay.

 

[SEALBound]

The team has 4 goals without Crosby or Malkin on the ice in 8 games. If you're expecting much more than that, you have wildly unrealistic expectations for how a bottom-6 should be producing, especially in the ice time/usage they're getting.

The only issue with this team's production at 5v5 is the 4th line doesn't have a goal, but at the same time they've also only been on the ice for 1 goal. This team is fine at 5v5.

3. I don't count the first Rust goal as a "bottom 6 goal" because the center was Eller.

Eller has one goal. Zohorna has one goal. So even 3 is generous.

DOC, Accari, Nieot, Carter, and Harkins - 0 goals.

3 goals in 8 games. That's 30 total goals give or take per 82...between 6 guys...5 goals a piece? Yeah that's not enough.

It's hardly controversial to suggest that we are going to need more from the bottom 6 in order to be successful. You don't have to expect HBK like results but that hardly means being satisfied with a 0 goals over 8 games but only being scored on once for a 4th line.

 

[Empoleon8771]

3. I don't count the first Rust goal as a "bottom 6 goal" because the center was Eller.

Eller has one goal. Zohorna has one goal. So even 3 is generous.

DOC, Accari, Nieot, Carter, and Harkins - 0 goals.

3 goals in 8 games. That's 30 total goals give or take per 82...between 6 guys...5 goals a piece? Yeah that's not enough.

It's hardly controversial to suggest that we are going to need more from the bottom 6 in order to be successful. You don't have to expect HBK like results but that hardly means being satisfied with a 0 goals over 8 games but only being scored on once for a 4th line.

Uh, what? If the 3rd line is on the ice and a defenseman scores a goal, that's still a bottom-6 goal.

People on here have out of touch expectations with what a bottom-6 is supposed to produce because of the Staal and Kessel days. The only issue with production in the bottom-6 right now is the 4th line doesn't have a goal yet, but they're still drawing even for the most part. Getting a bottom-6 that can chip in 50 goals over a full season, especially with the kind of usage/ice time that the bottom-6 is doing, is absolutely reasonable. If the 4th line had even a single goal this year, that's effectively what they'd be on pace to be doing.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Rakell could use a bit of a wake up call. Throw him on the 3rd and see if DOC or Zoho are even a fraction of the players people seem to think by promoting them for a couple games.

This is where my head has been lately: Z deserves some sort of promotion and Rak deserves demotion.

Would be interesting if Rak couldn't get going on L3 and Z could help Malkin

 

[Empoleon8771]

And the folks of the top 6 inhabit the failing powerplay.

Honestly I don't even think that's relevant to the 5v5 discussion, I just think people's expectations here are out of wack for what a bottom-6 should be providing.

The top-6 makes like $36 million while the bottom-6 makes like $10 million. The top-6 is being played in the offensive roles while the bottom-6 is playing in the defensive roles. Of course the top-6 is going to be driving their production, that's literally what they're being paid to do.

The fact that their bottom-6 is drawing even on the year despite them spending so little money on the bottom-6 is really good for the bottom-6. If they'd just get rid of Carter for Hinostroza, they'd be spending even less on the bottom-6 while having a better bottom-6.

You want your bottom-6 to produce more? Maybe don't spend $36 million on your top-6 F and $25 million on your top-4 D if you want a better bottom-6. Nearly 80% of their money spent on forwards is spent on the top-6 and 90% of their money spent on defensemen is spent on their top-4. Yeah, I'd expect them to be carrying the team because that's what they're paid to do.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

This is where my head has been lately: Z deserves some sort of promotion and Rak deserves demotion.

Would be interesting if Rak couldn't get going on L3 and Z could help Malkin

I don't think Zoho can help Geno, but I do think he's about the only guy in the bottom-6 worth giving a look while Rakell gets his head on straight with 3rd line duty for a game or two.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I've posted this stat a few times already, but the Penguins are top-10 in the NHL in both 5v5 goals and 5v5 goals/60 while they're 2nd in 5x5 xGF/60. Even if you don't want to buy their offensive analytics, they are producing like a top-10 team at 5v5. I just really don't understand how people can be upset with that level of performance.

The top-6 is producing like it should, the 3rd line is chipping in a few goals here and there and the 4th line is drawing completely even. Combine that and the total result ends up a top-10 offensive team at 5v5, what's the problem there?

So far on the year, the Penguins have been a good offensive and okay defensive team (in terms of skaters) while getting poor goaltending and a horrendous powerplay. I feel like the production of the bottom-6 is far down the list of issues this team has been having so far.

The Penguins have 20 GF and 19 GA at 5v5 this year, while the Leafs have 14 GF and 14 GA at 5v5 this year. Why are the Penguins 3-5 while the Leafs are 5-2-1? Because the Leafs have the 5th best powerplay in hockey with 9 powerplay goals in 8 games, while the Penguins have the 2nd worst powerplay in hockey with 2 powerplay goals in 8 games.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I've posted this stat a few times already, but the Penguins are top-10 in the NHL in both 5v5 goals and 5v5 goals/60 while they're 2nd in 5x5 xGF/60. Even if you don't want to buy their offensive analytics, they are producing like a top-10 team at 5v5. I just really don't understand how people can be upset with that level of performance.

The top-6 is producing like it should, the 3rd line is chipping in a few goals here and there and the 4th line is drawing completely even. Combine that and the total result ends up a top-10 offensive team at 5v5, what's the problem there?

So far on the year, the Penguins have been a good offensive and okay defensive team (in terms of skaters) while getting poor goaltending and a horrendous powerplay. I feel like the production of the bottom-6 is far down the list of issues this team has been having so far.

The Penguins have 20 GF and 19 GA at 5v5 this year, while the Leafs have 14 GF and 14 GA at 5v5 this year. Why are the Penguins 3-5 while the Leafs are 5-2-1? Because the Leafs have the 5th best powerplay in hockey with 9 powerplay goals in 8 games, while the Penguins have the 2nd worst powerplay in hockey with 2 powerplay goals in 8 games.

I think you said in your post above that all the lines are doing what they are expected, except L3 doesn't have goals.

If you can possibly pump a goal or 2 by inserting a more offensive guy like Rak on L3 and L2 doesn't suffer for it, you have to make that maneuver.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think you said in your post above that all the lines are doing what they are expected, except L3 doesn't have goals.

If you can possibly pump a goal or 2 by inserting a more offensive guy like Rak on L3 and L2 doesn't suffer for it, you have to make that maneuver.

L3 has goals, it's L4 that doesn't have any goals. Which isn't even that big of an issue because they're also not giving up any goals, either.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Saying the top-6 is fine, the special teams suck, the goaltending is volatile/inconsistent, depth is iffy, and coaching is a problem is like an evergreen sentiment for the past half decade. I think only ESPN and The Hockey News would find that to be some sort of revelation.

 

[Josey Wales]

DK's Daily Shot of Penguins: When does this get ugly? Yes, Yes I know It is DK

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

The Penguins have 20 GF and 19 GA at 5v5 this year, while the Leafs have 14 GF and 14 GA at 5v5 this year. Why are the Penguins 3-5 while the Leafs are 5-2-1? Because the Leafs have the 5th best powerplay in hockey with 9 powerplay goals in 8 games, while the Penguins have the 2nd worst powerplay in hockey with 2 powerplay goals in 8 games.

PP should be the easiest thing to fix IMO. We have the talent and skills, and honestly, as many have said, finding a reasonable net front presence should not be that difficult.

I'd try out....
Letang - Left
EK - Top
Malkin + Crosby - Right
Carter - net front

I know someone else mentioned Carter too. Even at 38, his legs may be gone, but his body is still there, and the hands should still be pretty good for what needs to be done net front.

Reason I want Letang back is then EK and Letang could rotate around up top when needed. Not to mention Guentzel/Rust/Rakell have been pretty useless out there.