Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Serious attempt at Cup, or it's a bust, yes. If all you're doing is accepting bubble purgatory and winning the occasional round, you've failed as an organization.
I don't know why people keep referring to scorched earth as only getting one 1st rounder a year. That's not what it is. A serious rebuild entails many assets and the combined efforts of all of them.
San Jose for example is getting two 1sts, two 2nds and a 3rd this draft. They have a ton of cap space available next year to take on bad contracts in exchange for more picks.

This is exactly what the Pens should be doing, instead of w/e the f*** these last 2 years have been, and w/e the f*** next year is gonna be. It's time wasting.

Everyone shoulda grokked that when the signed Crosby til he was like 40 all those years ago. No offense. But I processed this reality a long time ago. The only thing I despise is that they refuse to actually get serious about it and half ass around by keeping ineffectual coaches and eternally shrugging GMs. But with Crosby being a thing they just aren't going to tear it down to the studs... they never were and frankly that's the right thing to do.

What time are we really wasting here? There's plenty of time to suck. I don't see the need to force that on a franchise legend if you can help it. Again... ahem... not that they are doing a very good job of things with how they are "trying" now -- which is my only beef. If anything I want them to go at it way harder.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Yeah, people are so silly about how easy it is to rebuild.

The only team that has done it "successfully" recently is the Edmonton Oilers and they've made one WCF.

Bruh the Avs ?

 

[Gurglesons]

Bruh the Avs ?

The Avs have been attempting to be competitive since 09-10 IMO.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Everyone shoulda grokked that when the signed Crosby til he was like 40 all those years ago. No offense. But I processed this reality a long time ago. The only thing I despise is that they refuse to actually get serious about it and half ass around by keeping ineffectual coaches and eternally shrugging GMs. But with Crosby being a thing they just aren't going to tear it down to the studs... they never were and frankly that's the right thing to do.

We're not talking about what we anticipated the organization to do. That was obvious. We're talking about what should have been done.
And what should have been done is not sign Letang, Rust, Rakell and Malkin to long term deals in summer 2022.

If you think that throwing away like 5+ years for the sake of sentiment for the core is the right thing, that's your opinion.
In my opinion the right thing is to attempt to progress towards Cups, every year. That should be the mandate for a serious organization.
In the Pens case, progressing towards a realistic shot at the Cup entails rebuilding first. Re-tooling isn't gonna get it done. One look at the current roster should make that clear.
The foundation is lacking.

And for as much as we fawn over Crosby, he finished 50 points behind Kucherov. His carry power is limited, as we saw the last 2 years when we missed the playoffs with him playing all 164 games.
He's likely to be worse at age 37 in 2024-25, and further worse at age 38 in 2025-26.
The pieces around him aren't gonna be good enough to win either, for all the remaining years that he decides to play.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

The Avs have been attempting to be competitive since 09-10 IMO.

It was short lived but I dont agree.

 

[Pancakes]

We're not talking about what we anticipated the organization to do. That was obvious. We're talking about what should have been done.

Nah I actually agree with @MrBrightside about this. This team has been good enough to at the least make the playoffs the past 5-6 years. There is no reason to tear down a team that can make the playoffs.

The error by Pens management was not re-signing Letang, Malkin, etc. The error was in sticking with Mike Sullivan long past his expiration date.

This team missed the playoffs the past two years by just a handful of points. I have zero doubt that a new coach bump would have been enough to get them in at least one if not both of those years.

And anyways, let's imagine that they did tear it down and let those guys go. No guarantee Crosby wants out in that scenario and Crosby alone would be enough to keep us out of the bottom 5 teams in the east. So...what. You'd rather be picking like 8th or 9th overall a couple years in a row rather than potentially making the playoffs?

For me I don't give a shite about tanking unless we can actually...y'know...tank, and that wouldn't be possible with Sid here.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Nah I actually agree with @MrBrightside about this. This team has been good enough to at the least make the playoffs the past 5-6 years. There is no reason to tear down a team that can make the playoffs.

The error by Pens management was not re-signing Letang, Malkin, etc. The error was in sticking with Mike Sullivan long past his expiration date.

This team missed the playoffs the past two years by just a handful of points. I have zero doubt that a new coach bump would have been enough to get them in at least one if not both of those years.

And anyways, let's imagine that they did tear it down and let those guys go. No guarantee Crosby wants out in that scenario and Crosby alone would be enough to keep us out of the bottom 5 teams in the east. So...what. You'd rather be picking like 8th or 9th overall a couple years in a row rather than potentially making the playoffs?

For me I don't give a shite about tanking unless we can actually...y'know...tank, and that wouldn't be possible with Sid here.

We just see it differently. You guys are satisfied with the team making the playoffs and losing in R1 or R2.
I want to follow a serious organization that strives for championships, like they used to. I don't want an eternal bubble team that misses once every 2 years and puts up an ok fight in the year they're in, for 2 weeks.
The 3 Cups has evaporated your guys' hunger is all. I get it. I just don't feel that way. Every year is a separate entity to me. What happened in the past is irrelevant. I look forward.
Unfortunately, with the way they've paved their future here, what is coming is gonna be even more feigning relevance. Already quite sick of it after the last 2 years. Massive turn-off.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Nah I actually agree with @MrBrightside about this. This team has been good enough to at the least make the playoffs the past 5-6 years. There is no reason to tear down a team that can make the playoffs.

The error by Pens management was not re-signing Letang, Malkin, etc. The error was in sticking with Mike Sullivan long past his expiration date.

This team missed the playoffs the past two years by just a handful of points. I have zero doubt that a new coach bump would have been enough to get them in at least one if not both of those years.

And anyways, let's imagine that they did tear it down and let those guys go. No guarantee Crosby wants out in that scenario and Crosby alone would be enough to keep us out of the bottom 5 teams in the east. So...what. You'd rather be picking like 8th or 9th overall a couple years in a row rather than potentially making the playoffs?

For me I don't give a shite about tanking unless we can actually...y'know...tank, and that wouldn't be possible with Sid here.

Not only that, but you can't even really "tear down" due to the NMCs on the team. Malkin, Letang, Crosby and Karlsson aren't waiving even if you decide to blow up the team.

This team had an opportunity to rebuild in the 2022 off-season, where they instead decided to re-sign Malkin and Letang and continue down the path they've been on. There is no getting off that path at this point and the team has still made the correct decision.

We just see it differently. You guys are satisfied with the team making the playoffs and losing in R1 or R2.
I want to follow a serious organization that strives for championships, like they used to. I don't want an eternal bubble team that misses once every 2 years and puts up an ok fight in the year they're in, for 2 weeks.
The 3 Cups has evaporated your guys' hunger is all. I get it. I just don't feel that way. Every year is a separate entity to me. What happened in the past is irrelevant. I look forward.
Unfortunately, with the way they've paved their future here, what is coming is gonna be even more feigning relevance. Already quite sick of it after the last 2 years. Massive turn-off.

No, it's that people in here have more reasonable opinions than "anything less than having the best roster in the NHL is unacceptable".

Your logic basically suggests that 26 or so teams should be blowing up their teams because they're not good enough to contend for a cup.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I've seen so many supposed powerhouses crumble in the first round and so many "Cinderella Runs" from teams that "never should have made it" over the years that it still surprises me sometimes that Penguins fans don't seem to always grasp the importance of simply making the dance and seeing what happens. It's like ya'll WANT to be losers sitting on the outside looking in or something.

Way better to at least barely make the cut and roll the dice than miss the whole shebang by like 1-3 points and collect your shit-ass first rounder that will never do squat. Which is what the case will be so long as Sid Crosby is here.

It's not like it has to be Cup or bust. I think we'd all be happy with a little two or even three series run. Er... well... most of us would be happy.

Keeping Sid and signing players. We are on the path of going for it
I agree if people want to burn it down we had to make that decision 2 summers ago.

I'd rather go for it then start the process. Could be a decade before we are relevant again.

If the Penguins are "wasting time" with keeping with their core and trying to be a playoff team, then that means like half of the league is "wasting time" with keeping their core and trying to be a playoff team.

I have never understood why people desired to start the rebuild sooner than it needs to happen. Starting a rebuild today isn't going to magically make the rebuild happen faster than if you'd start it in 3 years after Crosby retires instead. What's the point of tanking the last few years with Crosby and Malkin just so the rebuild ends in 2029 instead of 2032?

Agreed.

I'd rather go for it now and extend any window we have over ending a rebuild a couple years earlier.

 

[Gurglesons]

We just see it differently. You guys are satisfied with the team making the playoffs and losing in R1 or R2.
I want to follow a serious organization that strives for championships, like they used to. I don't want an eternal bubble team that misses once every 2 years and puts up an ok fight in the year they're in, for 2 weeks.
The 3 Cups has evaporated your guys' hunger is all. I get it. I just don't feel that way. Every year is a separate entity to me. What happened in the past is irrelevant. I look forward.
Unfortunately, with the way they've paved their future here, what is coming is gonna be even more feigning relevance. Already quite sick of it after the last 2 years. Massive turn-off.

Avalanche are one of the best teams in the league and have made it out of the 2nd round once in MacKinnon’s career.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Bolts also built their core through the draft.

I don't think there's a single, correct way to build a team to contend for Cups. But I do think *this* team's correct path is through the draft because they have no chance of luring FAs through locale. Not gonna be able to cut corners, imo.

 

[Pancakes]

We just see it differently. You guys are satisfied with the team making the playoffs and losing in R1 or R2.
I want to follow a serious organization that strives for championships, like they used to. I don't want an eternal bubble team that misses once every 2 years and puts up an ok fight in the year they're in, for 2 weeks.
The 3 Cups has evaporated your guys' hunger is all. I get it. I just don't feel that way. Every year is a separate entity to me. What happened in the past is irrelevant. I look forward.
Unfortunately, with the way they've paved their future here, what is coming is gonna be even more feigning relevance. Already quite sick of it after the last 2 years. Massive turn-off.

As @Empoleon8771 said that's just an unrealistic standard to have. What the Penguins had for 16 years was extremely special. Only Chicago and maybe Tampa over all that time had anything remotely similar in terms of success.

For most teams getting in and having a chance to go on a run is the best you can hope for.

Even if the Penguins did tear it down completely there's no guarantees either. Look at the shit purgatory that Detroit and Buffalo have been in for like a decade or more.

Besides, the tank is going to be forced on this team soon anyways once Sid retires unless Dubas and his staff hit some home runs in the draft in the next few years. I see no reason to rush into that.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I know people mock it, but I genuinely think that the idea Hextall and Dubas have/had regarding "competing now while rebuilding the prospect pool" is exactly what they should be doing. Will that yield a team that is going to finish at the top of the standings along the Leafs, Canes and Rangers every year? No, but the focus should simply be making the playoffs and let what happens happen. Look at what happened in 2017, everyone thought this team was dead in the water with Letang's injury and they managed to go through an absolute gauntlet to win the cup that year.

IMO, what they should be doing is:

1. Selling off older players and rental players for prospects and picks
2. Focus on both developing those young prospects and picks and shopping those picks/prospects for young win-now help (like what Tampa did with Hagel, for example)
3. Be active in taking advantage of cap dumps and devalued player situations

I think Dubas is generally following this setup, he just needs to do a better job at it while not being so married to the coaching staff.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean... players get hot at the right (or wrong usually in our case) times. Look at the end of this season. Goaltending is so erratic that teams can go on runs based just on THAT alone. All these vaunted "depth heroes" of playoff yore over the years probably spent large portions of that same regular season as utter duds and then found another level at just the right time etc. Nobody really gave much of a shit about Bonino until they did, for instance.

It's a chaotic sport. Even this team with all it's problems is like two or three of the right players on a heater at the right time from going on a tear.

 

[Freeptop]

I don't really know who I'd like to see the Pens target in free agency, and, well, whenever I've done that in the past, I've been disappointed, anyway, so I feel I'm better off just not setting myself up to be disappointed.

That said, I will set myself up to be disappointed in one way: if Dubas is serious about getting younger, then he shouldn't sign any UFAs this summer to contracts longer than 2 years, or more than $3M in cap hit (I'd say 2M, but I'm adjusting for the inevitable cap hit inflation that will occur). And I wouldn't want very many of those, either. (I'm not even sure I want any of those, to be honest).

Pretty much anyone who would earn more than that is going to be at least 27, so if Dubas is going to use up cap space and contract length, I'd want it to be on younger players acquired in trades.

For that matter, I'm kind of hoping he doesn't spend all the way to the Cap, but instead keeps a large cushion. That way it's easier to adjust mid-season, one way or another. If it turns out they're doing well, you've got space to acquire a good player to push them forward. If they aren't? They can take back cap hit to make it easier to make a deal. Basically, Dubas should be strategic about how he uses his cap space this summer.

The Pens should be trying to make the playoffs next season (since it's clear that Crosby will keep them in mushy middle, at the very least), but they shouldn't be going all-in thinking they are Cup contenders; certainly not during this offseason, at least.

 

[chethejet]

There are 3 main issues to this. Sullivan and the coaching mostly PP but emphasis on his small lack of physical players. The lack of young talent emerging to push the marginal players out. Lastly the cap needed to sustain this roster with costly contracts that vets can command limited movement. So the solution is to move these veteran players for prospects and picks where appropriate. Jake was the kick start, Sid signing and the health of Letang aside, Pens move Karlsson and Rust who carry value after next year. Geno who knows but clearly after this coming year, Dubas has to retool the roster as the young prospects.

 

[cygnus47]

I totally agree with the idea of not bothering with middling FAs. If our choice is another graves, just let the young guys play. If we make the playoffs it will be because Poulin, pono, poj, puus, st ivany etc play better than expected and Sullys hand is forced. We need the youth to keep our play up through the season and it doesn’t make sense to extend mediocrity if we’re not also giving ourselves a shot of being better than expected. If someone legit becomes available, go for it, otherwise just stick with bringing up young guys.

 

[Gurglesons]

Bolts also built their core through the draft.

I don't think there's a single, correct way to build a team to contend for Cups. But I do think *this* team's correct path is through the draft because they have no chance of luring FAs through locale. Not gonna be able to cut corners, imo.

Bolts never tore it down though. They attempted to be competitive for years.

I guess that's the thing is that the Avs and Bolts were not trying to go full scortched earth like many people are advising the Penguins to do.

You let your team natural have those down years that result in a MacKinnon, Stamkos or Hedman. Hell, Tampa was in an ECF two years prior to drafting Drouin.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

We just see it differently. You guys are satisfied with the team making the playoffs and losing in R1 or R2.
I want to follow a serious organization that strives for championships, like they used to. I don't want an eternal bubble team that misses once every 2 years and puts up an ok fight in the year they're in, for 2 weeks.
The 3 Cups has evaporated your guys' hunger is all. I get it. I just don't feel that way. Every year is a separate entity to me. What happened in the past is irrelevant. I look forward.
Unfortunately, with the way they've paved their future here, what is coming is gonna be even more feigning relevance. Already quite sick of it after the last 2 years. Massive turn-off.

I don't think they would have been an eternal bubble team if they'd fired the coach years ago and been a bit more proactive about surrounding Sid and Geno with more support rather than sticking to a gameplan that worked when the two of them were 25 years old.

I also don't think it's as easy as "if they rebuild, they'll be a contender when that rebuild is finished". We've seen countless teams around the league who "tanked" and still cant seem to turn into a contender. We got extremely lucky about who we drafted and when we drafted them.

 

[Pancakes]

Bolts never tore it down though. They attempted to be competitive for years.

I guess that's the thing is that the Avs and Bolts were not trying to go full scortched earth like many people are advising the Penguins to do.

You let your team natural have those down years that result in a MacKinnon, Stamkos or Hedman. Hell, Tampa was in an ECF two years prior to drafting Drouin.

Yeah sometimes you don't even necessarily have to go full scorched earth to get a lottery pick.

The Pens could try to compete next year and have a Crosby and Malkin injury and end up with a top 5 pick anyways. At least if that happens they still have guys ready to go the following year because they didn't tear it all down. And then they have the pick to boot.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

In the end it's a lot of luck and a lot of having personnel in place to develop and coach the picks you make. This team's scouting depts are suspect, and the coaching issues are miles long at this point. I prefer the bottom out and collect as many top picks as possible route because it, I think, eases the burden of hitting homeruns on the fewer you'd get trying to compete every year. /shrug

-edit- Basically; be bad enough for enough time to stockpile top picks knowing that not all of them will pan out. Spray and pray drafting.

They're never gonna get another Sid or Geno, probably. They're gonna have to draft, develop and build smart. Stoked that Dubas, Sully, and FSG are manning the ship!

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah sometimes you don't even necessarily have to go full scorched earth to get a lottery pick.

The Pens could try to compete next year and have a Crosby and Malkin injury and end up with a top 5 pick anyways. At least if that happens they still have guys ready to go the following year because they didn't tear it all down. And then they have the pick to boot.

That's my point.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I also don't think it's as easy as "if they rebuild, they'll be a contender when that rebuild is finished". We've seen countless teams around the league who "tanked" and still cant seem to turn into a contender. We got extremely lucky about who we drafted and when we drafted them.

Some of them botched their management. But yeah, I never said it's a sure thing. However it is the default option when what you're currently doing won't lead to a Cup. Have to try, if you're serious about winning championships at some point.

As @Empoleon8771 said that's just an unrealistic standard to have. What the Penguins had for 16 years was extremely special. Only Chicago and maybe Tampa over all that time had anything remotely similar in terms of success.

For most teams getting in and having a chance to go on a run is the best you can hope for.

Even if the Penguins did tear it down completely there's no guarantees either. Look at the shit purgatory that Detroit and Buffalo have been in for like a decade or more.

Besides, the tank is going to be forced on this team soon anyways once Sid retires unless Dubas and his staff hit some home runs in the draft in the next few years. I see no reason to rush into that.

I'm not asking for an amazing standard of winning. I'm asking for ownership, management and coaches to try their hardest to progress the organization every year.
It's not the losing that bothers me. It's the casual attitude. I want determined people back in positions of power.
Like watch a Tocchet interview in Vancouver. It's a completely different level of desire.

Well, not rushing into the rebuild is basically throwing years away when you could have been accumulating assets. That makes zero sense to me. And I don't see why we're waiting on Sid for everything. He's just a player, not the owner or GM. You don't make long term team health decisions based on what your Captain wants. You just do whatever helps you progress.
By the time what you're talking about happens, a good 5 years will have been thrown in the trash (counting these last 2 years). That's dumb management.

No, it's that people in here have more reasonable opinions than "anything less than having the best roster in the NHL is unacceptable".

Your logic basically suggests that 26 or so teams should be blowing up their teams because they're not good enough to contend for a cup.

That's not what I'm saying. If you're not a current contender then you should be at least along the road to eventually becoming one, like we were in 2007 vs Ottawa for example.
But we're not, and we're not gonna be that for a long time. We're gonna have a number of years where the organization is stuck in mud, doing some useless re-tool, signing Sid to 10.5M for 3 years until he's 40 when we have no chance to win. That's just throwing away cap when you could be weaponizing that into picks.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Stealing an idea from the main board, I actually feel like Graves for Kotkaniemi makes a good bit of sense on paper. Dubas has noted that the Penguins are trying to get younger, which Kotkaniemi would clearly help with, while the Canes have basically all of their defensemen being UFAs after either this year or next year. With Skjei and Pesce likely pricing themselves out this year, Carolina is going to need defensemen to replace them.

I'm not buying Kotkaniemi has any sort of notable further development at this point, and he is definitely overpaid for what he is, but he'd be a damn good 3C if he can be what he was in 2022-2023 consistently going forward. If you want to get younger, I think you can do a hell of a lot worse than a Graves for Kotkaniemi swap.

 

[Gurglesons]

Stealing an idea from the main board, I actually feel like Graves for Kotkaniemi makes a good bit of sense on paper. Dubas has noted that the Penguins are trying to get younger, which Kotkaniemi would clearly help with, while the Canes have basically all of their defensemen being UFAs after either this year or next year. With Skjei and Pesce likely pricing themselves out this year, Carolina is going to need defensemen to replace them.

I'm not buying Kotkaniemi has any sort of notable further development at this point, and he is definitely overpaid for what he is, but he'd be a damn good 3C if he can be what he was in 2022-2023 consistently going forward. If you want to get younger, I think you can do a hell of a lot worse than a Graves for Kotkaniemi swap.

I can't see Carolina doing Kotkaniemi for Graves.