The bare minimum I need from Dubas this offseason is firing Reirden, trading Smith and also trading at least 1 of Jarry and/or Graves.
Salary Cap: Pens 2024 Summer Thread: "Thus, knocking us out of these superior numbers when we emerge! Mr. President, we must not allow a non-playoff bound gap!"
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Freeptop
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To be fair, of those three top ten picks, only one of them is currently contributing on a regular basis (Byfield).
In any case, I don't think Dubas actually meant any specifics of how they did it, just a general concept of surrounding talented veterans with younger players to compliment them. As opposed to a traditional rebuild where you tear everything down and rebuild all the way from the ground up.
Not saying it will work, but if you look at it that way, it's at least reasonable to see how that's what he's talking about.
Yeah but they’re going to have trade some vets and then trade for some really really talented young forwards…it’s going to cost and what are our assets? LA gave up a bunch for Dubois and that was a terrible trade for them..very hard to pull off but I’m waiting to get Pinto and Jarvis whenever they get here lol
AuroraBorealis
Back-to-back hater
I'm not sure Guentzel is even worth 9 mil next year though. He can't defend at all and he's not particularly good on the PP. We're likely better off with Bunting in that spot on the unit.
Similarly, we might get more from Bunting + 4.5M for someone else, than Guentzel alone.
I think it's likely Smith bounces back to some degree. He has a good track record. He wasn't that awful in the end. 40 points and solid PK work, in a PP2 role. Maybe 5-10 points short of reasonable expectations.
The Raks deal I didn't like from the get-go. We were reacting to an outlier year. His career stats are kinda meh.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Yeah this is exactly it. The concept is more focused on LA surrounding Kopitar and Doughty with younger win-now moves with acquiring guys like Fiala, Dubois (who has been a dud so far but still fit the concept) and Gavrikov.
It's basically the idea of setting up a "young core" of players in addition to the older core. The Penguins were approaching that a few years ago when they had young guys like Marino, Pettersson, Kapanen, McCann, Murray, Guentzel and Jarry, but it obviously didn't pan out like they were hoping.
DesertedPenguin
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- Mar 11, 2007
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PENS OFFSEASON VERSION 1 - OVERHAUL TO GET BETTER, BUT NOT YOUNGER
Can't make the commitment to a youth movement? Prospects not quite living up to what you thought? This is the way forward.
STAFF CHANGES
Reirden and Vellucci are fired. Marco Sturm (LAK) is hired to coach the forwards and the power play. Tim Gleason (CAR) is poached to work with the defensemen and the penalty kill.
Ty Hennes is reassigned elsewhere in the organization and Shawn Allard (COL) is brought in as a third assistant coach with the role of player/skill development.
TRADES
Stephenson - Crosby - Rust
Bunting - Malkin - DeBrusk
Trenin - Hayton - O'Connor
Poulin - Eller - Acciari
Ponomarev - Nieto
Joseph - Letang
Pettersson - Karlsson
Graves - St. Ivany
Ludvig
Stolarz
Vejmelka
RATIONALE
DeBrusk and Stephenson represent upgrades on Smith and Rakell for similar price points. With this lineup, you can actually pay them each $1-1.5 million more per year than the listed cap hits.
DeBrusk is a one-for-one Rakell replacement with a bit more of a shooter's mentality. But he's still streaky and may need a kick in the ass every so often. Boston may move on from him after an up-and-down relationship.
Vegas likely can't keep all of its top pieces, and Stephenson is in line for the biggest salary jump. The Pens can give him a top line role where his versatility and strong two-way play fit right in with Crosby and Rust.
Hayton is a young, talented center who can't stay in the lineup. Pens take a chance on him and start him as the third line center, where he can be OK defensively while providing some potential offense deeper in the lineup.
Trenin isn't going to be a playmaker, but he'll go to the net and add some grit. He and DOC could create an annoying line to play against.
Poulin and Ponomarev can fight for the spot alongside Eller and Acciari. Nieto is a fine 13th forward.
On defense, there just isn't much they can do right now without moving out Graves. You do have the cap space to add another left defenseman if you want to move out POJ, but I'm not sure about giving up the assets to acquire such a piece.
Finally, the Stolarz-Vejmelka tandem is a holdover with the idea of giving Blomqvist through camp to show what he can do. You have the cap space to run with three goalies, if you want. Or you can keep Blomqvist in the minors until December or so and then flip Vejmelka.
Out of the two new goalies, Stolarz has a consistent track record but has never been a true starter. Vejmelka is the unknown, a bit like Ned was this past year.
FINAL THOUGHTS
This is a lineup that keeps you competitive for a couple years until you make a further transition. There also isn't enough in here to block ascending prospects. If Koivunen, for example, is tearing it up in WBS, you can slide him in and slide other players down or out of the lineup. It also means you're not solely reliant on those prospects hitting. If Poulin is a bust, for example, you're not scrambling for a 3C.
Goaltender is a weakpoint and I'm not wild about the defense, but I don't think it's worth committing much more cap to those positions at the moment.
Can't make the commitment to a youth movement? Prospects not quite living up to what you thought? This is the way forward.
STAFF CHANGES
Reirden and Vellucci are fired. Marco Sturm (LAK) is hired to coach the forwards and the power play. Tim Gleason (CAR) is poached to work with the defensemen and the penalty kill.
Ty Hennes is reassigned elsewhere in the organization and Shawn Allard (COL) is brought in as a third assistant coach with the role of player/skill development.
TRADES
- Reilly Smith to Los Angeles for a 3rd round pick -- LA was rumored to be strongly interested in Smith at the deadline but couldn't make a deal happen because it didn't have space. Pens can retain up to $1.5 million to help make this work.
- Rickard Rakell to Seattle for a 3rd round pick -- Seattle is bound to make some significant adjustments to its lineup and targets Rakell as a versatile middle six option. No retention.
- Tristan Jarry to Utah for Barrett Hayton (RFA), Karel Vejmelka, and a 3rd round pick -- Jarry gives the new Utah franchise a better 1A/1B option to go with Ingram, as Utah will want to be competitive early on. The Pens get a lottery ticket in Hayton, who has significant injury question marks along with his talent, and take a flyer on Vejmelka as an early season option in goal (more on that later)
- Hayton reups at 2 years, $2,250,000 per year
- Poulin resigns at $850,000
- St. Ivany resigns at $850,000
- POJ resigns at $900,000
- C/LW Chandler Stephenson (VGK) for 4 years, $5.5 million per year
- RW/LW Jake DeBrusk (BOS) for 4 years, $4.75 million per year
- LW/C Yakov Trenin (COL) for 2 years, $2 million per year
- G Anthony Stolarz (FLA) for 1 year, $2 million per year
Stephenson - Crosby - Rust
Bunting - Malkin - DeBrusk
Trenin - Hayton - O'Connor
Poulin - Eller - Acciari
Ponomarev - Nieto
Joseph - Letang
Pettersson - Karlsson
Graves - St. Ivany
Ludvig
Stolarz
Vejmelka
RATIONALE
DeBrusk and Stephenson represent upgrades on Smith and Rakell for similar price points. With this lineup, you can actually pay them each $1-1.5 million more per year than the listed cap hits.
DeBrusk is a one-for-one Rakell replacement with a bit more of a shooter's mentality. But he's still streaky and may need a kick in the ass every so often. Boston may move on from him after an up-and-down relationship.
Vegas likely can't keep all of its top pieces, and Stephenson is in line for the biggest salary jump. The Pens can give him a top line role where his versatility and strong two-way play fit right in with Crosby and Rust.
Hayton is a young, talented center who can't stay in the lineup. Pens take a chance on him and start him as the third line center, where he can be OK defensively while providing some potential offense deeper in the lineup.
Trenin isn't going to be a playmaker, but he'll go to the net and add some grit. He and DOC could create an annoying line to play against.
Poulin and Ponomarev can fight for the spot alongside Eller and Acciari. Nieto is a fine 13th forward.
On defense, there just isn't much they can do right now without moving out Graves. You do have the cap space to add another left defenseman if you want to move out POJ, but I'm not sure about giving up the assets to acquire such a piece.
Finally, the Stolarz-Vejmelka tandem is a holdover with the idea of giving Blomqvist through camp to show what he can do. You have the cap space to run with three goalies, if you want. Or you can keep Blomqvist in the minors until December or so and then flip Vejmelka.
Out of the two new goalies, Stolarz has a consistent track record but has never been a true starter. Vejmelka is the unknown, a bit like Ned was this past year.
FINAL THOUGHTS
This is a lineup that keeps you competitive for a couple years until you make a further transition. There also isn't enough in here to block ascending prospects. If Koivunen, for example, is tearing it up in WBS, you can slide him in and slide other players down or out of the lineup. It also means you're not solely reliant on those prospects hitting. If Poulin is a bust, for example, you're not scrambling for a 3C.
Goaltender is a weakpoint and I'm not wild about the defense, but I don't think it's worth committing much more cap to those positions at the moment.
CheckingLineCenter
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- Aug 10, 2018
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I’d emulate Dallas over anyone (youth pushes vets into support roles). But even they had a top 3 pick and it was 7 years ago. They didn’t do it via volume of picks/prospects, just hit big on what they had.
You can’t emulate what NYR did to navigate their rebuild you can only hope to emulate their success in the win column. They added a MVP level player via FA and had a Norris winner force his way there for 2nds and a 3rd. Had a Vezina level guy basically come out of the woodwork (drafted before they rebuilt). Moved up a ton of spots both years they drafted 1OA and 2OA. They’ve only really successfully developed K’Andre Miller. Sure it’s nice they won a presidents trophy but there’s not a “model” there- way more luck and taking advantage of being the Rangers than anything else.
I would tear this thing apart but if they’re desperate to get back into the dance and have a quick turnaround— Pens should really be looking at the Caps or Preds. Coaching change and dump a bunch of youth into lineup. Make a couple low key, savvy gambles that work out well (Nyquist, ROR, Strome). Pray.
You can’t emulate what NYR did to navigate their rebuild you can only hope to emulate their success in the win column. They added a MVP level player via FA and had a Norris winner force his way there for 2nds and a 3rd. Had a Vezina level guy basically come out of the woodwork (drafted before they rebuilt). Moved up a ton of spots both years they drafted 1OA and 2OA. They’ve only really successfully developed K’Andre Miller. Sure it’s nice they won a presidents trophy but there’s not a “model” there- way more luck and taking advantage of being the Rangers than anything else.
I would tear this thing apart but if they’re desperate to get back into the dance and have a quick turnaround— Pens should really be looking at the Caps or Preds. Coaching change and dump a bunch of youth into lineup. Make a couple low key, savvy gambles that work out well (Nyquist, ROR, Strome). Pray.
Gurglesons
Registered User
Arizona trading Vej, Hayton and a pick for Jarry is a huge reach.
Getting picks for Rakell and Smith too. Seems like you are being very wild here.
DesertedPenguin
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- Mar 11, 2007
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Might need to add to the Jarry deal, absolutely. That said, the goaltending market is weird.
I strongly disagree on Rakell and Smith. I don't think you're going to get extreme value for them, but Smith will be on an expiring contract. Guarantee someone gives up a 3rd/4th for one year of him in the hopes he bounces back.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
I don't particularly feel like Rakell serves any need for the Kraken. I know a couple of their wingers had a rough year, but I don't think trading for Rakell really does anything to address that. If they'd be trading for Rakell, I figure it would be something like Schwartz for Rakell straight up, which I actually think is a really interesting idea.
They need help at center along with a major bounce-back by Beniers and Gourde. I met Gourde and Beniers last night and even they acknowledged that they had a bad year in a casual conversation.
They need help at center along with a major bounce-back by Beniers and Gourde. I met Gourde and Beniers last night and even they acknowledged that they had a bad year in a casual conversation.
Rakell was hurt this year and was with a declining Malkin. Bunting brought needed jump and physical play and Rakell healthy was pretty good. I don't trade him for a third. That can be a pretty good line next year. DOC with some S&C can emerge into the LW with some bang, skill and allow SID room here. Much better fit for the first line. Eller is a very good third line center. He needs a better physical winger than smith although Smith was better the last 15 games. Smith moved for a pick and a Trenin is where I go. Physical go to the next a brings needed grit. Dubas believes Acciari if healthy can be a bigger contributor on offense and still play a strong physical game on the fore check. But Pens with 17 million retaining 1 million. Jarry I keep as the plan is him and the rookie. Pens can move Jarry easier after next year if need be.
DOC Sid Rust
Bunting Geno Rakell
Trenin Eller Acciari
Gruden? Poulin ?
Ponomarev Jesse P
DOC Sid Rust
Bunting Geno Rakell
Trenin Eller Acciari
Gruden? Poulin ?
Ponomarev Jesse P
Arizona capfriendly only has 5 D listed for next season, 3 RFAs and 2 ufas, and a whole lot of cap to spend. With the uncertainty of the whole situation, they might have a problem attracting ufas. And possibly reaching the cap floor? Though money talks and ......
But if they would have an issue attracting ufas, could be a spot for Graves contract if Dubas was more disappointed than he let on. And he didn't sound too pleased.
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- Jun 13, 2010
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A while back I thought Rakell to Seattle made a lot of sense if they didn't bring back Eberle but...they did...so, that's that.
I think I'm at the point where I elect to just keep Rakell and run Bunting-Malkin-Rakell next year. I have zero issue with Rakell other than I'd like to see him put up more points. But that said, I've long held the belief that if you are watching Rakell's game, he creates the play/time/space that leads to goals and quite often, he is left off the score sheet. So if you had one level hire than a secondary assist, I think you'd see Rakell be a much more significant producer. He does the things a good third wheel should be doing. Whether or not that's worth $5mil is a discussion point but honestly, I don't know who we target in a trade that makes sense.
I'm also not sure high on the idea of "trade Rakell for cap space and then sign winger XYZ for $4-5mil". If a team had the cap space, they could just sign player XYZ and not give up any assets. Unless this is a post FA move which seems unlikely.
As for Smith, I think he's a good candidate to be traded. If it's to LA, I target Grundstrom. Hard. THAT is our ideal 3LW. I imagine that LA would want to keep him though for the same reasons we would want him. If not him, I might take a look at Turcotte. I think at this point, his 5OV draft pedigree is in the trash but he's a young center so maybe? LA needs a goalie too so maybe they would be interested in a larger trade of Jarry+Smith for Grundstrom+...?
Bertuzzi-Sid-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
Grundstorm-Ponomarov-DOC
Poulin-Eller-Acciari
would be a nice forward group to roll into the new season with. There's a lot of mixing and matching you could do with that group.
I think I'm at the point where I elect to just keep Rakell and run Bunting-Malkin-Rakell next year. I have zero issue with Rakell other than I'd like to see him put up more points. But that said, I've long held the belief that if you are watching Rakell's game, he creates the play/time/space that leads to goals and quite often, he is left off the score sheet. So if you had one level hire than a secondary assist, I think you'd see Rakell be a much more significant producer. He does the things a good third wheel should be doing. Whether or not that's worth $5mil is a discussion point but honestly, I don't know who we target in a trade that makes sense.
I'm also not sure high on the idea of "trade Rakell for cap space and then sign winger XYZ for $4-5mil". If a team had the cap space, they could just sign player XYZ and not give up any assets. Unless this is a post FA move which seems unlikely.
As for Smith, I think he's a good candidate to be traded. If it's to LA, I target Grundstrom. Hard. THAT is our ideal 3LW. I imagine that LA would want to keep him though for the same reasons we would want him. If not him, I might take a look at Turcotte. I think at this point, his 5OV draft pedigree is in the trash but he's a young center so maybe? LA needs a goalie too so maybe they would be interested in a larger trade of Jarry+Smith for Grundstrom+...?
Bertuzzi-Sid-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
Grundstorm-Ponomarov-DOC
Poulin-Eller-Acciari
would be a nice forward group to roll into the new season with. There's a lot of mixing and matching you could do with that group.
Gurglesons
Registered User
Jason Zucker was moved for a 6th at the deadline.
Todd Reirden is a dookie faced peepee drinker.
- Jun 13, 2010
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Hard to trade a guy after one below average season but I think if they have the chance to ditch it, they should. Utah seems like a prime location quite honestly.
I imagine a lot of GMs will be looking to pounce on some of their guys if they ask out.
Meh, how many teams at the deadline could afford to take on Zucker's whole $5.3 million cap hit? When the entire league's cap situations aren't written in stone but take some serious financial gymnastics to fit that kind of hit that time of year. Zucker would've returned a lot more in the off-season.
DesertedPenguin
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Right, but that was the deadline, where teams were strapped for cap space and it was a buyer's market. Value will increase in the offseason as teams have more flexibility.
Sidgeni Malkby
Registered User
I'm aligned with you, but based on his presser, Jarry looks like he is staying. Graves is on a really short leash, but it looks like he will be getting a chance to redeem himself. Honestly, unless we need the cap, it makes sense to give him another year (even if he's pushed in and out of the lineup).
The last 13 games proved, to Dubas, that this team could plays as it is (without Nieto/Acciari/Graves/etc).
Smith is an easy move out.
- Jun 13, 2010
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I feel bad talking about scavenging on the Coyotes. Honestly, if I had it my way as the new owner, I wouldn't let them trade any prospect, Hayton, Keller, Durzi, etc. Unless there was absolute refusal to resign.
One thing we would float to them would be Graves for Kerfoot. Or maybe Graves+Acciari for Kerfoot+4th. Something like that. That would help us reshape the 3rd line.
XXX-Sid-Rust
Bunt-Geno-Raks
DOC-Kerfoot-Trade
Poulin-Eller-Puljujarvi/WBS
If you sign a $5mil LW for Sid, you still have $8mil in cap space.
One thing we would float to them would be Graves for Kerfoot. Or maybe Graves+Acciari for Kerfoot+4th. Something like that. That would help us reshape the 3rd line.
XXX-Sid-Rust
Bunt-Geno-Raks
DOC-Kerfoot-Trade
Poulin-Eller-Puljujarvi/WBS
If you sign a $5mil LW for Sid, you still have $8mil in cap space.
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If Dubas really wants to get past the Sullivan I don't like players who bring jam to the roster, then Dubas has to construct a roster that is far more balanced and plays 2024 NHL hockey. So yes I do go after Trenin, and physical 4th LW and get younger as to bottom 6. Poulin, Ponomarev for example are to me just better players as to building improvement into the system. Nieto's of the world just are guys that have a role but offer nothing that lends a team to be better in April vs October.
Bishop7979
Registered User
- Sep 9, 2005
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Without adding anyone to the top six I start the year with
Doc sid rakell
Blunting Geno rust
My 4th line is
Gruden eller acari
I trade smith and use the money opened by that more, Carter being gone, and then cap going up to load up the third line with a center and winger to play with puusy.
I don't see them being able to trade graves, but, pairing him on the 3rd line with st. Ivany would go along way to putting him in a position to succeed.
Doc sid rakell
Blunting Geno rust
My 4th line is
Gruden eller acari
I trade smith and use the money opened by that more, Carter being gone, and then cap going up to load up the third line with a center and winger to play with puusy.
I don't see them being able to trade graves, but, pairing him on the 3rd line with st. Ivany would go along way to putting him in a position to succeed.
Darren McCord
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- Dec 15, 2015
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Deadlines are different. Bad teams don’t add. A bad team would add Smit for a Vet presence.
Sidney the Kidney
One last time
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I know it's not the only issue with our roster, but watching these playoffs and seeing the intensity/physicality ramped up, it sure would be nice to have some physical guys on our club instead of a bunch of mid sized guys who don't really hit.
I still think that's an element we're lacking in. When the game does get physical and the other team starts tossing its weight around, we never have an answer. And no, I'm not talking about fighting for those who're going to throw out "LOL we tried Reaves and look at how that worked" comment.
I still think that's an element we're lacking in. When the game does get physical and the other team starts tossing its weight around, we never have an answer. And no, I'm not talking about fighting for those who're going to throw out "LOL we tried Reaves and look at how that worked" comment.
Darren McCord
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Why? Those players didn’t pick Utah. Be doing them a service and Utah. Any players who would mope should be moved.
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