Proposal: Penguins-Senators

[Hale The Villain]

But you have no idea whether he'd do that or not. I'm not looking at it from a Pens-fan's perspective, I'm looking at it from an angle of no one on this site has any damn clue about what Fleury wants. Would it surprise you at all for him to put only bad teams and unattractive teams on his NTC? No, just as it wouldn't surprise me if he made his NTC with the intent of making it difficult to trade him (just like what Kessel did with Toronto). I'm saying you have absolutely no clue what his NTC is, so to act like that Fleury will make it difficult to trade himself is baseless speculation.

And yes, it is logical for him to put teams with starters on his NTC. If he wants out of Pittsburgh (which again, you don't know if he will or won't if he's sitting on the bench behind Murray), it will be because he wants to be an undisputed starter. Which one would he do, would he make it difficult to trade himself or would he make it so he could definitely be moved to where he'd start? That's the point I'm making here, you simply don't know what he would want and who he'd put on his NTC.

Don't want to listen to me? Listen to Fleury:

https://www.nhl.com/news/marc-andre-fleury-wants-to-stay-with-penguins/c-281826610

"I've always said this is my home," Fleury told the Post-Gazette. "I wish I could play here all my career. I'll try my best to do good for the team, for the organization, and hopefully stick around a long time."

If he wants to stay in Pittsburgh, which all the evidence points towards, all the guy has to do is use his earned NTC to name all the teams that could realistically trade for him, and the Pens will either have to trade Murray or buy him out, which is another nice financial incentive for him to not waive his NTC.

Jarry has struggled in the AHL so far and Gustavsson was drafted this year. Trading a young franchise-potential goalie because you have 2 other prospects would be the definition of stupidity.

I don't know about that. The choice between Fleury and Murray could very well be Murray or Fleury + 1st and other assets (the return of Murray) + a future goalie spot opened up for one of the Pens young goaltenders. It's definitely something to consider.

Calgary
Dallas
Edmonton
Carolina
Buffalo
Edmonton (although I think they're probably happy with Talbot)
NYI
Ottawa
Philly (especially if they aren't interested in going forward with Mason or Neuvirth)
Vegas (they'll be able to make trades after this season is over, and if Fleury didn't put them on his NTC, then he could be traded there)
Vancouver

I also wouldn't rule out teams like Minnesota, Arizona and Florida (if Luongo retires), but I think those would be stretches for one reason or another.

Arizona already has Smith at 5.66M. If they were to trade for Fleury they'd have a 11M goalie tandem. Plus they'd have to expose Domingue to expansion if they traded for Fleury.

Carolina has Ward and Lack, and given they are in the same division as Pittsburgh, has significant incentive to not help the Pens out of their mess.

Philly has Mason and Neuvirth, given they are in the same division as Pittsburgh, has significant incentive to not help the Pens out of their mess.

Buffalo won't expose Lehner.

Edmonton won't expose Talbot (and can't since he has a NMC)

NYI has Halak, doesn't need Fleury, can't afford him, and given they are in the same division as Pittsburgh, has significant incentive to not help the Pens out of their mess.

Vancouver has Markstrom to protect

The only realistic options there are the Stars, Sens, Vegas and Flames. That's 4 teams Fleury could block a trade to, leaving 8 more NTC spots to occupy with teams that have a very slight chance of being able and interested in acquiring him.

Or maybe he's saying that because he wants to keep both goalies and knows it's possible to keep both goalies. Nah, I guess it can't be that, he's just straight up lying to the media just to prevent fan panic or something.

It's not possible to keep both goalies. Lying to yourself won't help the Pens situation.

 

[Dying Alive]

These threads are pointless because they always devolve into insistence that Murray will have to be traded. The Pens have made it clear he's in their long term plans. This front office has given us no reason to doubt them. Posting ad nauseum that the Pens HAVE to do this and Fleury WILL NOT do this is a pointless exercise because nobody has any idea what the organization will or won't do, or what Fleury will or won't do. And if all else fails they can buy him out and not add any cap hit between his dead cap and Murray's salary.

Also I wouldn't call a team that is the defending Cup champ and has two starting caliber goalies "their mess", but YMMV.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Arizona already has Smith at 5.66M. If they were to trade for Fleury they'd have a 11M goalie tandem. Plus they'd have to expose Domingue to expansion if they traded for Fleury.

Carolina has Ward and Lack, and given they are in the same division as Pittsburgh, has significant incentive to not help the Pens out of their mess.

Philly has Mason and Neuvirth, given they are in the same division as Pittsburgh, has significant incentive to not help the Pens out of their mess.

Buffalo won't expose Lehner.

Edmonton won't expose Talbot (and can't since he has a NMC)

NYI has Halak, doesn't need Fleury, can't afford him, and given they are in the same division as Pittsburgh, has significant incentive to not help the Pens out of their mess.

Vancouver has Markstrom to protect

The only realistic options there are the Stars, Sens, Vegas and Flames. That's 4 teams Fleury could block a trade to, leaving 8 more NTC spots to occupy with teams that have a very slight chance of being able and interested in acquiring him.

You do realize that Pittsburgh will most likely be taking back the goalie the other team originally planned to protect? So Lehner would very much still be an option. And so would Carolina for the right price.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Don't want to listen to me? Listen to Fleury:

https://www.nhl.com/news/marc-andre-fleury-wants-to-stay-with-penguins/c-281826610


If he wants to stay in Pittsburgh, which all the evidence points towards, all the guy has to do is use his earned NTC to name all the teams that could realistically trade for him, and the Pens will either have to trade Murray or buy him out, which is another nice financial incentive for him to not waive his NTC.

So you believe him that he wants to stay in Pittsburgh but you're ignoring:

I'll try my best to do good for the team

If you're believing every word he said, why would he make it impossible to move him when that's not a good move for the team? Again, you're just passing your own speculation as fact, which is just pure arrogance on your part.

I don't know about that. The choice between Fleury and Murray could very well be Murray or Fleury + 1st and other assets (the return of Murray) + a future goalie spot opened up for one of the Pens young goaltenders. It's definitely something to consider.

No, it's not even remotely a question. You don't trade 22 year old franchise goalies because they have higher value.

Arizona already has Smith at 5.66M. If they were to trade for Fleury they'd have a 11M goalie tandem. Plus they'd have to expose Domingue to expansion if they traded for Fleury.

Carolina has Ward and Lack, and given they are in the same division as Pittsburgh, has significant incentive to not help the Pens out of their mess.

Philly has Mason and Neuvirth, given they are in the same division as Pittsburgh, has significant incentive to not help the Pens out of their mess.

Buffalo won't expose Lehner.

Edmonton won't expose Talbot (and can't since he has a NMC)

NYI has Halak, doesn't need Fleury, can't afford him, and given they are in the same division as Pittsburgh, has significant incentive to not help the Pens out of their mess.

Vancouver has Markstrom to protect

The only realistic options there are the Stars, Sens, Vegas and Flames. That's 4 teams Fleury could block a trade to, leaving 8 more NTC spots to occupy with teams that have a very slight chance of being able and interested in acquiring him.

You do realize that Pittsburgh will most likely be taking back the goalie the other team originally planned to protect? So Lehner would very much still be an option. And so would Carolina for the right price.

What this guy said. And my original quote was:

I can think of 10 teams off the top of my head who can afford Fleury's caphit while trading a goalie back to Pittsburgh and Fleury would be an upgrade in net for them.

I didn't realize Talbot has a NMC on his next deal, so he wouldn't be an option then. That still leaves every other team there though. It's also really hard to take your opinion seriously on this situation when you're saying crap like "helping the Penguins out of their mess", it shows you're not at all objective in this discussion.

It's not possible to keep both goalies. Lying to yourself won't help the Pens situation.

Except it totally is possible. There you go again, passing off your opinion as fact. Unlikely does not mean impossible. You seem to be passing off a lot of what you think as fact, which is just dumb.

What if the Pens convince Fleury to waive his NMC, bribe Vegas into not taking him and they protect Murray? There, they keep both goalies. That shoots down your idea of "it's not possible to keep both". I have no interest in keeping both, but if JR wants to keep both, it's entirely possible for him to do that.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Just do Anderson for Fleury... gets the sens a younger goalie to keep and the pens get a quality goalie they can cut loose at expansion.

 

[OCPenguin]

Just do Anderson for Fleury... gets the sens a younger goalie to keep and the pens get a quality goalie they can cut loose at expansion.

We get a far worse goalie and he wouldn't be claimed in the expansion draft ... so, we would be stuck with a average goalie with a 4.2 cap him for 2017-18. Makes no sense for Pittsburgh at all, unless something more significant is coming along.

 

[Sens Vader]

We get a far worse goalie and he wouldn't be claimed in the expansion draft ... so, we would be stuck with a average goalie with a 4.2 cap him for 2017-18. Makes no sense for Pittsburgh at all, unless something more significant is coming along.

you would be stuck with an excellent back up goaltender for one season, with a combined goalie cap of under 8 mil. I don't know what 'significant' asset would be needed from Ottawa's side. Maybe a pick as we wouldn't want to be adding more salary to the deal

 

[SensNation613]

It would be a lot more than Anderson and a late pick for MAF. Even if it's not Lazar, the Penguins could do a lot better than Anderson and a 5th for Fleury most likely, whether it be by trading for a cheaper goalie (Fleury for Lack/Ward) or trading for a more expensive goalie with a bigger plus (Fleury for Niemi+)

MAF is far better than Anderson. You would be adding a second rounder at least.

That said, lets not be fools. Pittsburgh will trade MAF for picks/prospects, not an average goalie that costs north of 4.0 per season. Pittsburgh won't take any salary players back.

I don't think Ottawa would do it if they had to move a 2nd in the deal. Maybe a 3rd or have conditions on that 2nd but I don't think management would want to give much along with Anderson. I think they see our goaltending situation as stable and don't feel the need to upgrade but will if the price isn't too high.

 

[Benjamin]

Make this trade right now.

MAF + conditional 2nd

for

Anderson + Boro

The condition: If after the expansion Pittsburgh and Ottawa re-swap MAF and Anderson 1 for 1, the pick remains a 2nd. Otherwise it becomes a 1st.

Boro is for the salary difference.

Its Pittsburgh paying Ottawa a 2nd to hide MAF from the expansion draft. The it costing a 1st if they don't follow through.

Probably not allowed. I'm waiting to be told im wrong + a moron.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Make this trade right now.

MAF + conditional 2nd

for

Anderson + Boro

The condition: If after the expansion Pittsburgh and Ottawa re-swap MAF and Anderson 1 for 1, the pick remains a 2nd. Otherwise it becomes a 1st.

Boro is for the salary difference.

Its Pittsburgh paying Ottawa a 2nd to hide MAF from the expansion draft. The it costing a 1st if they don't follow through.

Probably not allowed. I'm waiting to be told im wrong + a moron.

I don't know if it's not allowed or not, but I have absolutely no idea why the Penguins would do that. Why would they pay to hide Fleury on another team when they could just trade Fleury for another starter and other assets? That's a really bad deal for them, they're getting a downgrade in net and they're paying a 1st to get it.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

An Anderson/Fleury swap makes sense next off season. Ottawa would have to add, but I don't think the add would be as big as Lazar. It comes down to how many teams are in on Fleury, and how devastating his 12 team no trade list proves to be to Pittsburgh's efforts to trade him.

A team taking on Fleury has to want to cut bait on their current starter or not have a current starter. Calgary is the only team that comes to mind initially, but weren't they rumoured to be in on him in the summer? If it didn't happen then, there must be a reason. It could just be that the Pens price was too high at the time, or it could be that CGY is one of the teams on Fleury's NTC list.

Swapping Fleury for Anderson before the expansion draft makes sense for Pittsburgh for a few reasons. First, it gets them a goalie without a NMC so they do not lose Murray. Second, cap wise it is more beneficial than buying Fleury out. A Fleury buyout+replacement goalie cost means Pittsburgh would be paying about 3M for their number 2 goalie for the next 4 seasons. Anderson makes about 4M for one more season if he is acquired in the 2017 off season. So they take a slightly higher cap burden for one year instead of four four. That's a pretty big advantage right there.

Not to mention Anderson provides Pittsburgh with a veteran backup goalie for what will be only Murray's second full NHL season.

Pens fans have to understand that when Senators fans are proposing an Anderson/Fleury swap they are doing it under the assumption that it will be a last resort for Pittsburgh. If you think there'll be a competing market for Fleury with multiple teams not on his NTC list willing to give up full value for him, and Pittsburgh won't be forced to take a soft return (someone listened to the Bobcast today and learned a new trade term) then obviously you look at that proposal and think it is absurd. In the context of a last resort scenario for Pittsburgh, it makes a lot of sense to me.

If the Sens lose faith in Anderson and try to make the trade mid season, especially since Ottawa has no second round picks, I think OPs trade is probably in the ball park of what it will cost. Pittsburgh would be trading from a position of strength instead of one of weakness since Ottawa would need to make the trade more than they would at the time. I don't know if it would specifically be Lazar, but value wise it sounds right.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

We get a far worse goalie and he wouldn't be claimed in the expansion draft ... so, we would be stuck with a average goalie with a 4.2 cap him for 2017-18. Makes no sense for Pittsburgh at all, unless something more significant is coming along.

Actually, no, you would be getting a goalie who is equal in ability to MAF, but a couple years older. You guys are really underrating Andy.

 

[Benjamin]

I don't know if it's not allowed or not, but I have absolutely no idea why the Penguins would do that. Why would they pay to hide Fleury on another team when they could just trade Fleury for another starter and other assets? That's a really bad deal for them, they're getting a downgrade in net and they're paying a 1st to get it.

Well Sens have tried the Fleury for another starter but Pens fans say they dont want to downgrade. In this scenario you keep Fleury and Murray.

Btw, the price is a 2nd. Not a 1st. Plus its a temporary swap.

 

[PensandCaps]

how about ryan dzingel instead of lazar. he fits our team perfectly. fast, pressures the D.

 

[Human]

done...

 

[Sens Vader]

done...

yeah..he didnt look so hot tonight At least on that first goal

 

[OCPenguin]

how about ryan dzingel instead of lazar. he fits our team perfectly. fast, pressures the D.

I actually like Dzingle a lot better than Lazar. Lazar is a suspect to me. Then again, maybe we can revisit Calgary again for a goalie. Looks like the Elliot experiment isn't working.

 

[PensandCaps]

I actually like Dzingle a lot better than Lazar. Lazar is a suspect to me. Then again, maybe we can revisit Calgary again for a goalie. Looks like the Elliot experiment isn't working.

yep, hes been very noticeable in the games ive watched of ottawas this year. like his speed the most.

 

[DJB]

Done. Fair trade. Sens need to get younger in net.

 

[SensNation613]

how about ryan dzingel instead of lazar. he fits our team perfectly. fast, pressures the D.

Nooo. Dzingel has looked so good ever since he's been in the NHL. Although it's a hard no, I'm glad other teams fans are taking notice of his skillset.

 

[Tender Rip]

you would be stuck with an excellent back up goaltender for one season, with a combined goalie cap of under 8 mil. I don't know what 'significant' asset would be needed from Ottawa's side. Maybe a pick as we wouldn't want to be adding more salary to the deal

I think it is actually better than that from the Pens side.
Anderson could be exposed and there's even an off chance that he might be picked as he will likely be one of the better goalies not getting protected to provide some vet stability for Vegas (leading to us not losing a more valuable player).

Should we desire it, he could likely also be traded next season to open up more cap-space and get an asset in return. No NTCs to worry about and UFA to be, while his salary also drops some. A very competent backup/solid compliment to a young goalie will always have some demand if there is not a major commitment to make.

I like the frame work for Fleury/Anderson. Pens should definitely get something meaningful on top in a normal situation, but with the expansion draft and various uncertainties, I think I could ultimately also go for it 1 for 1.

 

[edguy]

Done. Fair trade. Sens need to get younger in net.

Agreed. But 3 years younger isnt enough especially not at the cost of Lazar

 

[Do Make Say Think]

He doesn't have an NMC?

Oh that changes things then, us Sens fans who thought Anderson for Fleury could be worked around were basing ourselves on the fact that the Penguins would love to get rid of Fleury due to an NMC.

 

[Beville]

I'd do it from the Sens perspective...

I'm just not as warm to Lazar as I was before, let's do it.

 

[Sureves]

I don't like Lazar much, but I'm not sure why we need to add him in here, and he does have some value. So no from me, but I would do Andy + 2nd for Fleury.