Proposal: Penguins-Senators

[Empoleon8771]

Penguins trade Fleury and Wilson
Senators trade Anderson and Lazar

Who adds in this deal?

Click to read more...

 

[topshelf15]

Penguins trade Fleury and Wilson
Senators trade Anderson and Lazar

Who adds in this deal?

I dont think this deal happens TBH ,having a guy like Fleury as a backup .Isnt a bad thing for a team that is looking to defend a cup .Maybe at the trade deadline.But for right now i think the Pens stand pat

 

[Benjamin]

Sens pass if Lazar is being added.

 

[tony d]

I think the Sens add but in all reality I can't see a deal happening here.

 

[SensNation613]

We wouldn't add Lazar. I can see the general idea behind MAF for Anderson+Late pick because you get a good goaltender without a NMC to guide Murray. It gives Jarry time to develop into a decent backup in the minors. Surprisingly enough, I think MAF would actually waive for Ottawa. We're only a ~3H drive away from his hometown and we're one of the few teams where he would have the net to himself since we don't have great goaltending prospects ATM.

The advantages for Ottawa are pretty simple. His contract expires at the same time as Karlssons so we would still have the room needed to re-sign EK. He gives us an upgrade in net despite many thinking that he's a supposed choker. He's about 3 years younger than Andy so it would give us more time to find his replacement if they don't think neither of Hogberg/Driedger/O'Connor are ready for the NHL. The only concern would be if Dorion would want to use more of the budget in order to bring him in which I think would be a solid no since they have the utmost confidence in Anderson. It makes sense to me but I don't think management would see it as a significant enough upgrade to spend the extra $ especially when Andy is only getting paid 3.1M next season.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

I like Lazar, however I think it would be better if we could get a player who can slot in the 3C role next year, so we can let somebody else pay Bonino. Dunno if Lazar is up to the task.

I was more looking at the three options from Dallas. Devin Shore, Mattias Janmark or Radek Faksa (Niemi to be included in the deal).

 

[OCPenguin]

We wouldn't add Lazar. I can see the general idea behind MAF for Anderson+Late pick because you get a good goaltender without a NMC to guide Murray. It gives Jarry time to develop into a decent backup in the minors. Surprisingly enough, I think MAF would actually waive for Ottawa. We're only a ~3H drive away from his hometown and we're one of the few teams where he would have the net to himself since we don't have great goaltending prospects ATM.

The advantages for Ottawa are pretty simple. His contract expires at the same time as Karlssons so we would still have the room needed to re-sign EK. He gives us an upgrade in net despite many thinking that he's a supposed choker. He's about 3 years younger than Andy so it would give us more time to find his replacement if they don't think neither of Hogberg/Driedger/O'Connor are ready for the NHL. The only concern would be if Dorion would want to use more of the budget in order to bring him in which I think would be a solid no since they have the utmost confidence in Anderson. It makes sense to me but I don't think management would see it as a significant enough upgrade to spend the extra $ especially when Andy is only getting paid 3.1M next season.

MAF is far better than Anderson. You would be adding a second rounder at least.

That said, lets not be fools. Pittsburgh will trade MAF for picks/prospects, not an average goalie that costs north of 4.0 per season. Pittsburgh won't take any salary players back.

 

[Dying Alive]

MAF is far better than Anderson. You would be adding a second rounder at least.

That said, lets not be fools. Pittsburgh will trade MAF for picks/prospects, not an average goalie that costs north of 4.0 per season. Pittsburgh won't take any salary players back.

I don't think you can really say that unless they want to really restrict their trading options. How many playoff contenders have both the need and the cap space to take on MAF without sending any salary back? If they trade with Dallas they're more than likely going to be taking back Niemi. They won't take back any pure dumps or garbage extended-term contracts but assuming they move MAF I wouldn't be surprised if they don't actually see any cap savings for a year or two.

 

[OCPenguin]

I don't think you can really say that unless they want to really restrict their trading options. How many playoff contenders have both the need and the cap space to take on MAF without sending any salary back? If they trade with Dallas they're more than likely going to be taking back Niemi. They won't take back any pure dumps or garbage extended-term contracts but assuming they move MAF I wouldn't be surprised if they don't actually see any cap savings for a year or two.

We can't afford to bring back any sort of high priced guys. Look at our cap situation and tell me who we need to resign and who goes? I don't think you get that.

 

[Dying Alive]

We can't afford to bring back any sort of high priced guys. Look at our cap situation and tell me who we need to resign and who goes? I don't think you get that.

I think every Pens fans is intimately familiar with both our cap and the MAF situation. We all get it. Some of us are just being realistic and looking at various scenarios.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

pass. doesn't give the pens a better chance to win this year, which is the only reason to move MAF now.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

We can't afford to bring back any sort of high priced guys. Look at our cap situation and tell me who we need to resign and who goes? I don't think you get that.

In that case you will be dissapointed. It is extremely likely that we would be taking back the goalie that said team was planning to protect first. Andersson and Niemi are two very likely candidates.

Unless we are getting too pressured, for example if there are a lot of rumors around Bishop going somewhere, I'd also wait to trade Fleury until after the season.

 

[Empoleon8771]

pass. doesn't give the pens a better chance to win this year, which is the only reason to move MAF now.

It gives them an extra million and a half to use elsewhere, which would definitely help them. Neither Anderson or Fleury should be playing in the playoffs, so having $1.5 million to spend elsewhere would definitely help.

We wouldn't add Lazar. I can see the general idea behind MAF for Anderson+Late pick because you get a good goaltender without a NMC to guide Murray. It gives Jarry time to develop into a decent backup in the minors. Surprisingly enough, I think MAF would actually waive for Ottawa. We're only a ~3H drive away from his hometown and we're one of the few teams where he would have the net to himself since we don't have great goaltending prospects ATM.

The advantages for Ottawa are pretty simple. His contract expires at the same time as Karlssons so we would still have the room needed to re-sign EK. He gives us an upgrade in net despite many thinking that he's a supposed choker. He's about 3 years younger than Andy so it would give us more time to find his replacement if they don't think neither of Hogberg/Driedger/O'Connor are ready for the NHL. The only concern would be if Dorion would want to use more of the budget in order to bring him in which I think would be a solid no since they have the utmost confidence in Anderson. It makes sense to me but I don't think management would see it as a significant enough upgrade to spend the extra $ especially when Andy is only getting paid 3.1M next season.

It would be a lot more than Anderson and a late pick for MAF. Even if it's not Lazar, the Penguins could do a lot better than Anderson and a 5th for Fleury most likely, whether it be by trading for a cheaper goalie (Fleury for Lack/Ward) or trading for a more expensive goalie with a bigger plus (Fleury for Niemi+)

 

[Sens Vader]

Im not the biggest fan of MAF but I think Ottawa would be a good place for him. Not sure if he would waive to come here though.

Id do and Anderson for MAF swap with ads on our side. saves Pitts 1.5 mil in cap space on top of Anderson having a good chance of moving to LV. I would not however add Lazar to any deal for a goalie.

 

[Xspyrit]

Penguins trade Fleury and Wilson
Senators trade Anderson and Lazar

Who adds in this deal?

I'd like the Sens to get a goalie soon, but I am not sure about sacrificing Lazar. Fleury is almost 32 y/o, just 3 years younger than Andy... And Fleury track record in the playoffs makes me hesitate. Could he take the Sens deep in the playoffs?

You make me think about it with this deal, which is about fair, but kind of happy I don't have to make that decision lol.

I could see why some Sens fans would be ok with that. Anderson is getting older and has not been great lately.

MAF is far better than Anderson. You would be adding a second rounder at least.

That said, lets not be fools. Pittsburgh will trade MAF for picks/prospects, not an average goalie that costs north of 4.0 per season. Pittsburgh won't take any salary players back.

Is it just me or that post is wishful thinking?

 

[Hale The Villain]

If Fleury is traded he won't return much.

NMC, bad playoff resume, limited number of teams needing a #1 goalie, upcoming expansion, cap hit, desperation from the Pens, etc...

Sens might consider Anderson for Fleury straight up but not if Lazar is added.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If Fleury is traded he won't return much.

NMC, bad playoff resume, limited number of teams needing a #1 goalie, upcoming expansion, cap hit, desperation from the Pens, etc...

Sens might consider Anderson for Fleury straight up but not if Lazar is added.

1. He doesn't have a full NMC, he has a 12 team NTC. Meaning that he can list 12 teams he can't be traded to, that leaves 18 teams.
2. Bad playoff resume? What year is it, 2013? Fleury was good in the playoffs in each of 2014 and 2015 and barely played in 2016
3. Fleury's cap hit is extremely fair considering the caliber of goalie he is
4. The Penguins aren't desperate to move Fleury, somehow Rutherford seems to think that the Pens can keep both through the expansion draft. They also don't have to trade Fleury, a Fleury buyout and signing a $1 million backup costs the same as the Pens current Fleury-Murray goalie tandem.

 

[Benjamin]

The difference is how Pens fans and Sens fans view each goalie

I see Anderson and Fleury as the same quality. One has the cap advantage. One has age advantage. Same values.

 

[Hale The Villain]

1. He doesn't have a full NMC, he has a 12 team NTC. Meaning that he can list 12 teams he can't be traded to, that leaves 18 teams.
2. Bad playoff resume? What year is it, 2013? Fleury was good in the playoffs in each of 2014 and 2015 and barely played in 2016
3. Fleury's cap hit is extremely fair considering the caliber of goalie he is
4. The Penguins aren't desperate to move Fleury, somehow Rutherford seems to think that the Pens can keep both through the expansion draft. They also don't have to trade Fleury, a Fleury buyout and signing a $1 million backup costs the same as the Pens current Fleury-Murray goalie tandem.

1. The number of teams that need a #1 goalie, can afford Fleury, and have an open goalie spot to protect in expansion can be counted on one hand. A 12 team NTC list is more than enough for Fleury to ensure he can't be traded at all, let alone able to pick his spot and limit the return for the Pens.

2. Bad playoff resume is well established and is a big reason why Pens fans want Murray kept over Fleury so badly, despite Fleury being an above average goalie and far more proven than Murray in the regular season.

3. His cap hit may be fair, but doesn't change the fact that there are a limited number of teams with a goalie spot open, and an even smaller number of teams that can take on a 5.75M goalie contract without handicapping their cap situation.

4. Rutherford is a fool if he thinks Vegas won't take Murray in expansion if both goalies are kept to that point. He'd also be naive to think that he can bribe Vegas to not take a 22 year old starting goalie with a cup ring. Murray signing a team-friendly contract may allow them to buyout Fleury without significant cap ramifications, but that doesn't change the fact that the Pens will undoubtedly be desperately trying to unload his contract before a buyout becomes the only option.

 

[Empoleon8771]

1. The number of teams that need a #1 goalie, can afford Fleury, and have an open goalie spot to protect in expansion can be counted on one hand. A 12 team NTC list is more than enough for Fleury to ensure he can't be traded at all, let alone able to pick his spot and limit the return for the Pens.

Or Fleury can put all teams who don't need him on his NTC, meaning that there would be plenty of teams that he could be traded to. It's utterly baseless speculation to say that he'd put any teams that would be interested in him on his NTC. Could he have done that? Yeah, but he would have needed to do that already and there's no guarantee that he actually did that. What if he only put teams where he wouldn't be a starter on his NTC (so teams like Washington, Montreal, Chicago and such)? That's entirely possible, he doesn't want to get traded to a team and not be a starter so he puts all teams who have better starters than him on his NTC.

2. Bad playoff resume is well established and is a big reason why Pens fans want Murray kept over Fleury so badly, despite Fleury being an above average goalie and far more proven than Murray in the regular season.

Yeah, it has nothing to do with the fact that Murray is a decade younger than Fleury. Nope, that's not a factor at all. If Fleury would be 26 today, then there would actually be a debate. There's no debate because Murray will be in his prime by the time Fleury is retired and the difference between the two today isn't significant.

3. His cap hit may be fair, but doesn't change the fact that there are a limited number of teams with a goalie spot open, and an even smaller number of teams that can take on a 5.75M goalie contract without handicapping their cap situation.

I can think of 10 teams off the top of my head who can afford Fleury's caphit while trading a goalie back to Pittsburgh and Fleury would be an upgrade in net for them.

4. Rutherford is a fool if he thinks Vegas won't take Murray in expansion if both goalies are kept to that point. He'd also be naive to think that he can bribe Vegas to not take a 22 year old starting goalie with a cup ring. Murray signing a team-friendly contract may allow them to buyout Fleury without significant cap ramifications, but that doesn't change the fact that the Pens will undoubtedly be desperately trying to unload his contract before a buyout becomes the only option.

I trust Rutherford a lot more with that decision than some random HF poster that's trying to argue how the Pens are on the verge of Armageddon with regards to Fleury.

 

[KevinRedkey]

1. He doesn't have a full NMC, he has a 12 team NTC. Meaning that he can list 12 teams he can't be traded to, that leaves 18 teams.
2. Bad playoff resume? What year is it, 2013? Fleury was good in the playoffs in each of 2014 and 2015 and barely played in 2016
3. Fleury's cap hit is extremely fair considering the caliber of goalie he is
4. The Penguins aren't desperate to move Fleury, somehow Rutherford seems to think that the Pens can keep both through the expansion draft. They also don't have to trade Fleury, a Fleury buyout and signing a $1 million backup costs the same as the Pens current Fleury-Murray goalie tandem.

If Fleury adds these 12 teams to his NTC, then who will he be traded to?
Arizona
Calgary
Columbus
NY Islander
Minnesota
Colorado
Buffalo
Vancouver
Dallas
Edmonton
Ottawa
Winnipeg
Carolina

I'm genuinely curious on what you think about this.

Edit: My bad, that's 13 teams

 

[Empoleon8771]

If Fleury adds these 12 teams to his NTC, then who will he be traded to?
Arizona
Calgary
Columbus
NY Islander
Minnesota
Colorado
Buffalo
Vancouver
Dallas
Edmonton
Ottawa
Winnipeg
Carolina

What if Fleury didn't put any of those teams on his NTC? That's about as valid as your question. In reality, absolutely no one on this site know who Fleury put on his NTC. You can't use that as an argument for why Fleury can't be traded because it's pure speculation. He could have put any teams that would be interested in him on his NTC (if he doesn't want to be traded), or he could have put teams who have starting goalies already on his NTC (if he doesn't want to be traded and be a backup). Or he could have put a bunch of bad teams on his NTC (if he doesn't want to go to a bad team) or he could have put a bunch of Canadian teams on his NTC (if he doesn't want to play in Canada) or he could have put a bunch of Eastern teams on his NTC (if he doesn't want to play against the Penguins with regularity). In reality, absolutely no one knows.

And to your question, he could still be traded to Vegas. So there's that. If Fleury puts those 12 teams on his NTC, he'll either need to waive to go to one of those teams, he'll get bought out or he'll be forced to waive his NMC for the expansion draft (with a threat of a buyout, I could see something like this happening where the Pens also pay off Vegas to not take Fleury). However, that's a really specific scenario and it's one of many scenarios that could happen.

 

[OCPenguin]

1. The number of teams that need a #1 goalie, can afford Fleury, and have an open goalie spot to protect in expansion can be counted on one hand. A 12 team NTC list is more than enough for Fleury to ensure he can't be traded at all, let alone able to pick his spot and limit the return for the Pens.

2. Bad playoff resume is well established and is a big reason why Pens fans want Murray kept over Fleury so badly, despite Fleury being an above average goalie and far more proven than Murray in the regular season.

No, he is older and more expensive than Murray. We need to clear some cap space. People who post this aren't exactly in tune with what's going on.

3. His cap hit may be fair, but doesn't change the fact that there are a limited number of teams with a goalie spot open, and an even smaller number of teams that can take on a 5.75M goalie contract without handicapping their cap situation.

There are several teams right now who have goalie issues and are desperate to make the play-offs. Not hard to figure out which ones I'm talking about.

4. Rutherford is a fool if he thinks Vegas won't take Murray in expansion if both goalies are kept to that point. He'd also be naive to think that he can bribe Vegas to not take a 22 year old starting goalie with a cup ring. Murray signing a team-friendly contract may allow them to buyout Fleury without significant cap ramifications, but that doesn't change the fact that the Pens will undoubtedly be desperately trying to unload his contract before a buyout becomes the only option.

Rutherford knows very well that Murray would be selected. We aren't in position to buyout Fleury. That is dumb, especially when there are desperate suitors there.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Or Fleury can put all teams who don't need him on his NTC, meaning that there would be plenty of teams that he could be traded to. It's utterly baseless speculation to say that he'd put any teams that would be interested in him on his NTC. Could he have done that? Yeah, but he would have needed to do that already and there's no guarantee that he actually did that. What if he only put teams where he wouldn't be a starter on his NTC (so teams like Washington, Montreal, Chicago and such)? That's entirely possible, he doesn't want to get traded to a team and not be a starter so he puts all teams who have better starters than him on his NTC.

Every indication Fleury has given is that he wants to remain a Penguin. Why wouldn't he? Has played his whole career in Pittsburgh, has grown close with a number of Pens players, and obviously wants to remain on a contending team.

No logical reason why he'd want to give Rutherford free reign to trade him wherever he wants. Fleury earned the NTC in his contract and thinking he is going to give it up to help the Pens out is foolish, and frankly, makes it seem like you're only looking at this from a Pens-fan's perspective.

Yeah, it has nothing to do with the fact that Murray is a decade younger than Fleury. Nope, that's not a factor at all. If Fleury would be 26 today, then there would actually be a debate. There's no debate because Murray will be in his prime by the time Fleury is retired and the difference between the two today isn't significant.

That's a factor as well. Didn't say it wasn't.

Of course the Pens have two promising young goalies in Jarry and Gustavsson who could take over the net from Fleury when he's not longer a capable starter, so it's not like keeping Fleury over Murray would mean a dismal future in net for the Pens.

I can think of 10 teams off the top of my head who can afford Fleury's caphit while trading a goalie back to Pittsburgh and Fleury would be an upgrade in net for them.

Name them.

I trust Rutherford a lot more with that decision than some random HF poster that's trying to argue how the Pens are on the verge of Armageddon with regards to Fleury.

If I were you I'd trust in basic logic over the word of your team's GM, who has a significant incentive to try to calm fans down and downplay a potentially bad situation for the franchise.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Every indication Fleury has given is that he wants to remain a Penguin. Why wouldn't he? Has played his whole career in Pittsburgh, has grown close with a number of Pens players, and obviously wants to remain on a contending team.

No logical reason why he'd want to give Rutherford free reign to trade him wherever he wants. Fleury earned the NTC in his contract and thinking he is going to give it up to help the Pens out is foolish, and frankly, makes it seem like you're only looking at this from a Pens-fan's perspective.

But you have no idea whether he'd do that or not. I'm not looking at it from a Pens-fan's perspective, I'm looking at it from an angle of no one on this site has any damn clue about what Fleury wants. Would it surprise you at all for him to put only bad teams and unattractive teams on his NTC? No, just as it wouldn't surprise me if he made his NTC with the intent of making it difficult to trade him (just like what Kessel did with Toronto). I'm saying you have absolutely no clue what his NTC is, so to act like that Fleury will make it difficult to trade himself is baseless speculation.

And yes, it is logical for him to put teams with starters on his NTC. If he wants out of Pittsburgh (which again, you don't know if he will or won't if he's sitting on the bench behind Murray), it will be because he wants to be an undisputed starter. Which one would he do, would he make it difficult to trade himself or would he make it so he could definitely be moved to where he'd start? That's the point I'm making here, you simply don't know what he would want and who he'd put on his NTC.

That's a factor as well. Didn't say it wasn't.

Of course the Pens have two promising young goalies in Jarry and Gustavsson who could take over the net from Fleury when he's not longer a capable starter, so it's not like keeping Fleury over Murray would mean a dismal future in net for the Pens.

Jarry has struggled in the AHL so far and Gustavsson was drafted this year. Trading a young franchise-potential goalie because you have 2 other prospects would be the definition of stupidity.

Name them.

Calgary
Dallas
Edmonton
Carolina
Buffalo
Edmonton (although I think they're probably happy with Talbot)
NYI
Ottawa
Philly (especially if they aren't interested in going forward with Mason or Neuvirth)
Vegas (they'll be able to make trades after this season is over, and if Fleury didn't put them on his NTC, then he could be traded there)
Vancouver

I also wouldn't rule out teams like Minnesota, Arizona and Florida (if Luongo retires), but I think those would be stretches for one reason or another.

If I were you I'd trust in basic logic over the word of your team's GM, who has a significant incentive to try to calm fans down and downplay a potentially bad situation for the franchise.

Or maybe he's saying that because he wants to keep both goalies and knows it's possible to keep both goalies. Nah, I guess it can't be that, he's just straight up lying to the media just to prevent fan panic or something.