Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: End of an era?

[Pancakes]

My issue with Malkin on the point is when we do turn the puck over it's a guaranteed 2 on 1 against. He just does not have the speed to get back any more.

But I mean, I dunno what you do there. Rust is very good on the PP, and should probably remain there. So is Jake. If they wanted to run a 2 d PP they'd need another offensive minded d, and if they had that and put Rust on PP2 then why are we paying Rust so much money? He needs to be on PP1 to earn that salary imo.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I didn't even click on the original NST link. Just took @Tom Hanks word.

Anyways, thanks. That makes sense.
1/4 shots blocked seems pretty significant. Then you have to factor in all the misses too.

Yeah I saw that thanks. I assumed being on a PP search that it’d be shot attempts blocked.

I will send them a strongly worded letter about it. Damn those guys and their great free site

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Yeah I saw that thanks. I assumed being on a PP search that it’d be shot attempts blocked.

I will send them a strongly worded letter about it. Damn those guys and they’re great free site

Dude honestly my faith in stat tracking is at a low point.
I've seen games where Sid makes like 4 bad giveaways and they credit him with 0.

But we do have to rely on something, and no one will take you seriously if you use eye test

 

[ChaosAgent]

edit: p.s. Letang's goal share is irrelevant to whether he is a declining defensive force or not. His GA/60 relative to the rest of the team might be, but the share is as relevant as how quickly he can down a Guinness.

The goal is to be an all-around player. To outscore your opposition. That's the objective of hockey, is it not? If a player is taking all kinds of chances offensively and yet still outscoring the opposition, they must be pretty talented defensively to make up for what the chances they are taking.

No Penguins defenseman consistently does this except Letang. Dumoulin I guess. But he plays with Letang.

This is just another one where the analytics crowd is outsmarting itself; granularity for its own sake.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Dude honestly my faith in stat tracking is at a low point.
I've seen games where Sid makes like 4 bad giveaways and they credit him with 0.

But we do have to rely on something, and no one will take you seriously if you use eye test

Probably just the definitions of some stats are more strict than what we think they should be.

 

[ChaosAgent]

My issue with Malkin on the point is when we do turn the puck over it's a guaranteed 2 on 1 against. He just does not have the speed to get back any more.

But I mean, I dunno what you do there. Rust is very good on the PP, and should probably remain there. So is Jake. If they wanted to run a 2 d PP they'd need another offensive minded d, and if they had that and put Rust on PP2 then why are we paying Rust so much money? He needs to be on PP1 to earn that salary imo.

Jake isn't that good on the PP. In zone I suppose, but he is miserably bad on entries.

We also aren't paying Rust that much money. But he should be on PP1 regardless as our best right-handed option.

 

[Pancakes]

I think it can be true that Letang and Malkin are declining and also that it still makes sense to sign both of them because there's no realistic alternatives.

That's pretty much where I'm at. Do I expect them to get worse over the course of the next 2-3 years? Of course. It'd be crazy if they didn't. But when you compare like Malkin to the Trochecks of the world or Letang to the Klingbergs....well I know what side of the fence I'm on.

If we let them go and somehow snagged Gaudreau or Forsberg, we're a better team next year. But f*** if that's gonna happen I might as well buy some lotto tickets because getting either of those guys feels as likely as that

 

[Pancakes]

Jake isn't that good on the PP. In zone I suppose, but he is miserably bad on entries.

We also aren't paying Rust that much money. But he should be on PP1 regardless as our best right-handed option.

I'll agree that it doesn't seem like he's all that on entries, but he's pretty damned good once possession is established. He's also good on retrievals too.

He was second on the team in powerplay points this year as well. That said, Malkin and Rust both were pacing much better and would have passed him if they'd played full seasons. But I feel like Jake holds his own and contributes a fair bit on the PP. He's so smart too. Helps keep plays alive and is good under pressure.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'm not a Trocheck guy, but I really don't think the drop off from a 36+ year old Geno, missing 20+ games a year, to Trocheck or some other 50-60pt center is gonna implode this team.

Team's gonna feel the loss of Letang about 100x more than Geno if he walks.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Jake isn't that good on the PP. In zone I suppose, but he is miserably bad on entries.

We also aren't paying Rust that much money. But he should be on PP1 regardless as our best right-handed option.

Jake gets fewer PPP's because of the nature of his position and how we orchestrate it.
I don't think it's a matter of him being an average PP'er. He just doesn't get enough puck touches.

We're usually stuck either trying to get set up or passing it on the perimeter with Letang, Geno and Sid. We struggled to get it to the inside last season.
But when we do get it down there, I trust Jake as much as anyone with those short passes. He's great at that...especially the one-timer passes.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'm not a Trocheck guy, but I really don't think the drop off from a 36+ year old Geno, missing 20+ games a year, to Trocheck or some other 50-60pt center is gonna implode this team.

Team's gonna feel the loss of Letang about 100x more than Geno if he walks.

I just think a GCR, Rakell, Letang PP is going to absolutely f*****g blow.

But you're right. At ES a Heinen/Zucker-Geno-Rakell L2 gets a bunch of zone starts, Geno scores a highlight goal...and they're -10 and Geno's derping around with .8 PPG with .4 of those on the PP.

(Non-Star)-Geno-(Non-Star) is a farce of a scoring line at this point. I find it hard to believe that throwing in some grunty/grindy, less-talented-but-not-untalented center that allows the line to play in all situations makes it worse.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I just think a GCR, Rakell, Letang PP is going to absolutely f*****g blow.

But you're right. At ES a Heinen/Zucker-Geno-Rakell L2 gets a bunch of zone starts, Geno scores a highlight goal...and they're -10 and Geno's derping around with .8 PPG with .4 of those on the PP.

(Non-Star)-Geno-(Non-Star) is a farce of a scoring line at this point. I find it hard to believe that throwing in some grunty/grindy, less-talented-but-not-untalented center that allows the line to play in all situations makes it worse.

Still unsure why the team re-signed Rust. Not directly related to recent convo, just sorta still bewildered by the whole thing.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I'm not a Trocheck guy, but I really don't think the drop off from a 36+ year old Geno, missing 20+ games a year, to Trocheck or some other 50-60pt center is gonna implode this team.

Team's gonna feel the loss of Letang about 100x more than Geno if he walks.

It gets pretty complex. Depends what you can do in trade/UFA if one or both walk plus in addition to how much they were willing to sign for which balances what you can do for the rest of the team.

You’d think you’d be worse off if they both left but you never know.

Then there is the added complexity of how the new players that come in play Sully’s system. That in itself could work in our favour, blow up in our faces or just average itself out.

Kinda exciting time. If we hadn’t won a cup (cups) recently I’d probably just be bitter

Nostalgically it’d be f***ing weird to see Malkin in another jersey. Letang still yeah but nothing compared to Geno.

 

[Pancakes]

Still unsure why the team re-signed Rust. Not directly related to recent convo, just sorta still bewildered by the whole thing.

I mean, why not when he's coming that cheap? 5 million is a bargain if he's gonna be putting up 25-30 goals a year for us and providing a relatively solid all around game.

I wouldn't have signed him for 6 or 7+ but for 5 it's kind of a no brainer.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think it can be true that Letang and Malkin are declining and also that it still makes sense to sign both of them because there's no realistic alternatives.

That's pretty much where I'm at. Do I expect them to get worse over the course of the next 2-3 years? Of course. It'd be crazy if they didn't. But when you compare like Malkin to the Trochecks of the world or Letang to the Klingbergs....well I know what side of the fence I'm on.

If we let them go and somehow snagged Gaudreau or Forsberg, we're a better team next year. But f*** if that's gonna happen I might as well buy some lotto tickets because getting either of those guys feels as likely as that

Take out the names Letang and Malkin and look at purely what they are today. I'm not sure it's as hard to replace what they reasonably are today as what it seems like "replacing" Letang and Malkin would require.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Jake gets fewer PPP's because of the nature of his position and how we orchestrate it.
I don't think it's a matter of him being an average PP'er. He just doesn't get enough puck touches.

We're usually stuck either trying to get set up or passing it on the perimeter with Letang, Geno and Sid. We struggled to get it to the inside last season.
But when we do get it down there, I trust Jake as much as anyone with those short passes. He's great at that...especially the one-timer passes.

I totally agree, but where our PP1 falls short again and again is entries. Jake was a big part of the problem. So many plays died on his stick when we tried to carry it in. When he tried to dump/chase, unfortunately he had to be one of the retrieval guys and it almost never worked.

I want to see big systematic changes on the PP next year so I'll let it slide. But again - all the cool/genius stuff they can do on the PP doesn't matter if they can't establish in the zone.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Still unsure why the team re-signed Rust. Not directly related to recent convo, just sorta still bewildered by the whole thing.

It was a good deal especially how the contract is set up. He’s a top line winger and he’s also currently the captains favourite RW on the team (by far) to play with

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I mean, why not when he's coming that cheap? 5 million is a bargain if he's gonna be putting up 25-30 goals a year for us and providing a relatively solid all around game.

I wouldn't have signed him for 6 or 7+ but for 5 it's kind of a no brainer.

Because it f***s with your ability to re-sign Geno and Letang, while still fleshing out the roster beyond one line that functions anywhere near the effectiveness this team needs. Think Rust's all-around game is greatly exaggerated at this point too, kinda like how Kunitz transitioned his style to be more production-based and a ton of his play away from the puck and physicality went out the window. /shrug

I also think Rakell next to Sid and Jake is a better line combo than Rust. Rakell adds a dynamic and creativity that Rust doesn't, imo.

I guess it kinda makes sense if they want to put Rust with Geno, but it seems pretty obvious that Rust is locked on Sid's line. Even then, I think Geno needs a hell of a lot more help than what Rust can bring. Dude needs someone like Forsberg/Gaudreau-tier at this stage.

 

[Pancakes]

Take out the names Letang and Malkin and look at purely what they are today. I'm not sure it's as hard to replace what they reasonably are today as what it seems like "replacing" Letang and Malkin would require.

Kadri would be fine but would be as much or more expensive than Malkin imo. But if they went with him, it'd probably work ok.

I don't really like the thought of Trocheck as a Malkin replacement and I don't think he'll be a ton cheaper. If Malkin has to go, I'll live with Trocheck if that's who we get, but I don't think we'll be better off than we would with Malkin.

For defenseman, there's really nothing there. Klingberg can replace the PP stuff Letang brings maybe but definitely not the 5v5 play. Maybe something can happen in a trade that would work. I don't like the thought of replacing Letang via FA.

Because it f***s with your ability to re-sign Geno and Letang, while still fleshing out the roster beyond one line that functions anywhere near the effectiveness this team needs. Think Rust's all-around game is greatly exaggerated at this point too, kinda like how Kunitz transitioned his style to be more production-based and a ton of his play away from the puck and physicality went out the window. /shrug

I also think Rakell next to Sid and Jake is a better line combo than Rust. Rakell adds a dynamic and creativity that Rust doesn't, imo.

I guess it kinda makes sense if they want to put Rust with Geno, but it seems pretty obvious that Rust is locked on Sid's line. Even then, I think Geno needs a hell of a lot more help than what Rust can bring. Dude needs someone like Forsberg/Gaudreau-tier at this stage.

They have enough cap space to sign Malkin and Letang so long as they aren't asking for the moon. It's really Rakell moreso that signing Rust hurts. They can fit Malkin and Letang and still fill out a roster. They cannot fit them + Rakell though.

Really curious how these negotiations are going. I have a weird feeling in my gut that one of them will be gone, but not both. I guess we'll see.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Because it f***s with your ability to re-sign Geno and Letang, while still fleshing out the roster beyond one line that functions anywhere near the effectiveness this team needs. Think Rust's all-around game is greatly exaggerated at this point too, kinda like how Kunitz transitioned his style to be more production-based and a ton of his play away from the puck and physicality went out the window. /shrug

I also think Rakell next to Sid and Jake is a better line combo than Rust. Rakell adds a dynamic and creativity that Rust doesn't, imo.

I guess it kinda makes sense if they want to put Rust with Geno, but it seems pretty obvious that Rust is locked on Sid's line. Even then, I think Geno needs a hell of a lot more help than what Rust can bring. Dude needs someone like Forsberg/Gaudreau-tier at this stage.

If the Penguins just accept that they need to pay a bribe to drop Zucker/Petts, or sell Dumo before he falls off a cliff, they will have no issue bringing back Malkin and Letang.

I don't think it's all that complicated. Actually getting a big fish to go with Malkin & Letang is tougher, but that's more of a recruitment thing and less about cap. If a Forsberg/Gaudreau was actually interested in coming here we could make it the cap work quite easily.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Kadri would be fine but would be as much or more expensive than Malkin imo. But if they went with him, it'd probably work ok.

I don't really like the thought of Trocheck as a Malkin replacement and I don't think he'll be a ton cheaper. If Malkin has to go, I'll live with Trocheck if that's who we get, but I don't think we'll be better off than we would with Malkin.

For defenseman, there's really nothing there. Klingberg can replace the PP stuff Letang brings maybe but definitely not the 5v5 play. Maybe something can happen in a trade that would work. I don't like the thought of replacing Letang via FA.

It doesn’t effect the Letang/Malkin deals.

The Pens have a cap they can pay and still be able to have good wingers.

If you don’t sign Rust to that good deal your paying someone else that money. Good wingers aren’t cheap. Plus we need another decent winger on top of Rust.

If you let Rust go and overpay Malkin/Letang you really f*** yourself with what you can do

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If the Penguins just accept that they need to pay a bribe to drop Zucker/Petts, or sell Dumo before he falls off a cliff, they will have no issue bringing back Malkin and Letang.

I don't think it's all that complicated. Actually getting a big fish to go with Malkin & Letang is tougher, but that's more of a recruitment thing and less about cap. If a Forsberg/Gaudreau was actually interested in coming here we could make it the cap work quite easily.

Kadri would be fine but would be as much or more expensive than Malkin imo. But if they went with him, it'd probably work ok.

I don't really like the thought of Trocheck as a Malkin replacement and I don't think he'll be a ton cheaper. If Malkin has to go, I'll live with Trocheck if that's who we get, but I don't think we'll be better off than we would with Malkin.

For defenseman, there's really nothing there. Klingberg can replace the PP stuff Letang brings maybe but definitely not the 5v5 play. Maybe something can happen in a trade that would work. I don't like the thought of replacing Letang via FA.


They have enough cap space to sign Malkin and Letang so long as they aren't asking for the moon. It's really Rakell moreso that signing Rust hurts. They can fit Malkin and Letang and still fill out a roster. They cannot fit them + Rakell though.

Really curious how these negotiations are going. I have a weird feeling in my gut that one of them will be gone, but not both. I guess we'll see.

I think they can probably fit 'em in now. The issue isn't fitting them in, it's dramatically improving on a team that's been out in the 1st round for four years straight, and is only going to get markedly worse as time continues to chip away at the 35/36 year old core.

Just bringing back the same group, more or less, ain't gonna cut it. And since Pittsburgh isn't NYC, Miami Beach, LA, or Vegas, you're gonna have to pay absolute top dollar to lure guys as free agents.

Rust's deal is fine in a vacuum. I just don't think it makes sense for what this team needs now, or moving forward.

(Fwiw, I'd take Kadri over Geno 10 times out of 10 nowadays. If the Pens had Kadri lined up, they could easily let Geno walk and be fine, if not improved, imo)

Agree with you that I'm losing patience/attention span when it comes to these guys. Fast forward to mid-July so we know what's going on already.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Kadri would be fine but would be as much or more expensive than Malkin imo. But if they went with him, it'd probably work ok.

I don't really like the thought of Trocheck as a Malkin replacement and I don't think he'll be a ton cheaper. If Malkin has to go, I'll live with Trocheck if that's who we get, but I don't think we'll be better off than we would with Malkin.

For defenseman, there's really nothing there. Klingberg can replace the PP stuff Letang brings maybe but definitely not the 5v5 play. Maybe something can happen in a trade that would work. I don't like the thought of replacing Letang via FA.

What I meant is that I don't think you should be looking at it like they're replacing "Malkin and Letang", you should take the names out and look at what these guys bring and figure out who can either replace them or who can get as close as possible.

With Malkin, you have a guy that's a terrific offensive driver who is also a difference maker on the powerplay. With Letang, you have an OFD who eats minutes at ES and on special teams. You don't necessarily need to replace all of those skillsets with one player, you can break those up into different components and replace them by committee. I think that's harder to do with Malkin than Letang, but I think you can argue you can do it with both.

Here's just a hypothetical. Let's say you get a RHD who can eat minutes and is a difference maker on the powerplay, a 2C who's a strong offensive driver at ES and a depth guy who is phenomenal on the PK. That replaces what Letang and Malkin got, you just got it in 3 pieces instead of 2.

 

[PenGlenn]

New to this board. First message. Watched hockey since pre Mario.
Letang can walk. You won't miss him that much. Geno. A whole other story. This is someone you sign. If he leaves you will see that gas is still very much in the tank. Not saying Letang is shot. Not at all. You just don't need him. Defense by committee. Game breakers (Geno) are in limited supply. Don't overthink this. For every play Letang makes positive he makes a dumb one. Speaking of dumb - Matt Dumba would be Kris if he was on this team.

 

[PenGlenn]

By Matt Dumba what I mean is he would be Kris L. on this team. Your on the back end feeding all time greats you will get points. I truly believe that Letang has been propped up by who he plays with. I don't think he can even properly pass the puck in stress situations. Let him walk. You will be fine. Oh and sign Geno, Or let Geno walk and see that he still has plenty of game.