Peak Datsyuk vs. Peak Bure

[Thenameless]

Bure was great but I think he's starting to become really overrated on HF. I suspect it's from younger posters who never saw him play watching his highlight reels. He was really exciting and a great goal scorer...but comparing him to Datsyuk who was the total package? The only time Bure was in his team's zone was during warmups. It's really not close imo.

Saying that Bure was only a great goal scorer and that Datsyuk was the total package is a bit misleading for two reasons. One, while it obviously implies that Datsyuk is a better two way player which I agree with, it also implies that they are comparable offensively. They are not. Bure has 60 goal seasons, with multiple 50 goal seasons beyond those two, and has multiple Rockets. Datsyuk had trouble cracking 30 during his best years. And yes, Bure did do some of his work in the dead puck era.

Secondly, Datsyuk is not a total package. He's a good two way player, but he lacks the dimension of physicality and intimidation present in true total package players like Howe, Potvin, and Messier.

I understand making the case for Datsyuk, but don't oversell the guy and undersell the other one at the same time.

 

[BlueMed]

Saying that Bure was only a great goal scorer and that Datsyuk was the total package is a bit misleading for two reasons. One, while it obviously implies that Datsyuk is a better two way player which I agree with, it also implies that they are comparable offensively. They are not. Bure has 60 goal seasons, with multiple 50 goal seasons beyond those two, and has multiple Rockets. Datsyuk had trouble cracking 30 during his best years. And yes, Bure did do some of his work in the dead puck era.

Secondly, Datsyuk is not a total package. He's a good two way player, but he lacks the dimension of physicality and intimidation present in true total package players like Howe, Potvin, and Messier.

I understand making the case for Datsyuk, but don't oversell the guy and undersell the other one at the same time.

Even Gretzky lacked physicality. I didn't realize Howe, Potvin, and Messier were perfect at every aspect of the game. I wonder why they aren't included as some of the best players of all time...

 

[Brucelenok]

Saying that Bure was only a great goal scorer and that Datsyuk was the total package is a bit misleading for two reasons. One, while it obviously implies that Datsyuk is a better two way player which I agree with, it also implies that they are comparable offensively. They are not. Bure has 60 goal seasons, with multiple 50 goal seasons beyond those two, and has multiple Rockets. Datsyuk had trouble cracking 30 during his best years. And yes, Bure did do some of his work in the dead puck era.

Secondly, Datsyuk is not a total package. He's a good two way player, but he lacks the dimension of physicality and intimidation present in true total package players like Howe, Potvin, and Messier.

I understand making the case for Datsyuk, but don't oversell the guy and undersell the other one at the same time.

Did you watch Datsyuk live? Look at my response to your previous post. It looks like you did not watch Datsyuk live. Did he lack intimidation? - Absolutely. But Datsyuk never lacked the dimension of physicality, not even close

 

[Regal]

Did you watch Datsyuk live? Look at my response to your previous post. It looks like you did not watch Datsyuk live. Did he lack intimidation? - Absolutely. But Datsyuk never lacked the dimension of physicality, not even close

He was pretty physical for a star and strong for a wiry guy, but he wasn't a punishing physical presence who you were afraid to go into the corner with, which is what I think that poster was driving at. Though how many guys really are these days? I'm not sure that style is made for today's game where so many things get called.

 

[newfy]

Datsyuk if you want to win hockey games. Comparable offense (even if you give the edge to Bure) but miles apart defensively. Datsyuk impacted every facet of the game

 

[Guided by Veseys]

At 17 years old playing for CSKA Moscow Bure scored at 0.53 gpg pace versus Makarov at 0.48 gpg. This was one year out from the Canada cup where Makarov and his teammates Larionov, Krutov and Fetisov showed they were every bit on par with with greatest team assembled in hockey history. Bure was a freak and was pretty much short changed by not playing for a single great team (unlike the magic man)
As a lethal comparison: 18 year old Federov was 0.38 Ppg on the same team.
Bure should have ended up recognized as one the very top players of all time but team success plus injuries held his legacy back by a far margin.

 

[newfy]

At 17 years old playing for CSKA Moscow Bure scored at 0.53 gpg pace versus Makarov at 0.48 gpg. This was one year out from the Canada cup where Makarov and his teammates Larionov, Krutov and Fetisov showed they were every bit on par with with greatest team assembled in hockey history. Bure was a freak and was pretty much short changed by not playing for a single great team (unlike the magic man)
As a lethal comparison: 18 year old Federov was 0.38 Ppg on the same team.
Bure should have ended up recognized as one the very top players of all time but team success plus injuries held his legacy back by a far margin.

I mean, he gets recognised as one of the most exciting players to watch ever and one of the most dynamic goal scorers ever, not sure how much his legacy is really held back. Maybe a deep playoff run or cup win makes him talked about in a bit higher regard but he didnt do a lot at both ends of the ice which also held back his legacy.

I also dont think Larionov and the boys showing up and playing well against the Canadians means they were every bit on par as players with that team. It showed that great players with the advantage of playing together year round and developing chemistry can stick with a team thrown together like that that doesnt get to play together. Comparing his stats with those guys is pretty irrelevant to me in the grand scheme of things.

If you want to win hockey games you take the dominant two way center who controlled the entire ice and made his teammates better over the dynamic goal scorer every time

 

[Guided by Veseys]

I mean, he gets recognised as one of the most exciting players to watch ever and one of the most dynamic goal scorers ever, not sure how much his legacy is really held back. Maybe a deep playoff run or cup win makes him talked about in a bit higher regard but he didnt do a lot at both ends of the ice which also held back his legacy.

I also dont think Larionov and the boys showing up and playing well against the Canadians means they were every bit on par as players with that team. It showed that great players with the advantage of playing together year round and developing chemistry can stick with a team thrown together like that that doesnt get to play together. Comparing his stats with those guys is pretty irrelevant to me in the grand scheme of things.

If you want to win hockey games you take the dominant two way center who controlled the entire ice and made his teammates better over the dynamic goal scorer every time

Just in the sense that nobody cares one bit about Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Bossy, etc in terms of all around game because they were that good.
That defensive awareness should be a consideration in terms of evaluating Bure should be an afterthought, otherwise you would have to start comparing Gretzky with Guy Carbonneau or other great defensive centres who won cups.
I think Bergeron would match up equally with Datsyuk, both have superb aspects to their game, but nobody would think Bergeron is on par with Crosby. Realistically Bure targeted as a Crosby/Jagr level player; not top 5 but close.
Also: Makarov at age 32 debuted with 86pts and Fetisov/Larionov were major parts of cup winning teams way past their prime.

 

[authentic]

That is an insane statement.

Ovechkin’s peak is light years better than Datsyuk and Bure.

50+ G and 110 pt physical horse.

Not really. Bure was on pace for 64 goals in 2000 for Florida. Head to head Ovechkin would hold no advantage over Datsyuk in an actual hockey game from 2007-09. Datysuk averaged 2 less minutes per game on the powerplay and still finished within 13-15 points of him. That's a massive difference and then you consider his defensive advantage.

 

[authentic]

Great recent player on a great team ranked higher than he should be ranked.

Now, Larionov I could get behind. But Datsyuk was not in his league. His defensive play was a myth based on takeaways and pick pocketing. Great hands, though, and a great player. Just not as great as people give him credit for.

Which is why he has the best possession stats since they've been tracked... Even in seasons with Lidstrom gone and Zetterberg not close to his prime.

 

[authentic]

At 17 years old playing for CSKA Moscow Bure scored at 0.53 gpg pace versus Makarov at 0.48 gpg. This was one year out from the Canada cup where Makarov and his teammates Larionov, Krutov and Fetisov showed they were every bit on par with with greatest team assembled in hockey history. Bure was a freak and was pretty much short changed by not playing for a single great team (unlike the magic man)
As a lethal comparison: 18 year old Federov was 0.38 Ppg on the same team.
Bure should have ended up recognized as one the very top players of all time but team success plus injuries held his legacy back by a far margin.

I still consider him one, as well as Datsyuk.

 

[Guided by Veseys]

I still consider him one, as well as Datsyuk.

Datsyuk is a supremely memorable player and incredibly effective but I wouldn’t put him as one of the greatest players of all time. Zetterberg was every bit the player and he is around fifth all time for Swedes.

In international play Datsyuk had limited success and pretty average point totals, similar to Zetterberg. Both great players and winners but not stand outs particularly. Zetterberg also outscored Datsyuk in the NHl playoffs while playing 20 less games.

 

[Regal]

When the Wings had to defend a crucial 3 on 5 shorthanded situation in the SC Finals against Crosby & Malkin, did they throw out Datsyuk there or did they throw out Zetterberg? I'm asking for a friend.

Datsyuk's defensive prowess is a bit overrated, yes. It's an exaggerated narrative. It's not as exaggerated narrative as "Kovalev is the most talented player ever ever" or "Bure cherry picked all of his goals", but it's still exaggerated.

Bure has the second longest point streak ever in a single playoffs, 16 games, only behind Bryan Trottier (18 games) in the wide open 1980s on the dynasty Islanders.

In light of W. Nylander's struggles when he came back mid-season from his holdout, I find it amusing to reminisce when Bure came back late season (in 98–99) from a holdout, without a training camp, just training by his own in Russia, and instantly, in his first game with his new club he had never played a single game with before, looked absolutely amazing and scored at a league shattering 1.45 PPG clip for 10+ games until he got injured.

There's a difference between in-zone defense and limiting chances against due to your overall play. Zetterberg was a better shadow and in-zone defender than Datsyuk if you're holding a lead, but Datsyuk was better at controlling the play and limiting overall chances against in the run of play, which is ultimately more valuable.

 

[authentic]

Datsyuk is a supremely memorable player and incredibly effective but I wouldn’t put him as one of the greatest players of all time. Zetterberg was every bit the player and he is around fifth all time for Swedes.

In international play Datsyuk had limited success and pretty average point totals, similar to Zetterberg. Both great players and winners but not stand outs particularly. Zetterberg also outscored Datsyuk in the NHl playoffs while playing 20 less games.

Well considering Datsyuk had like 12 points in his first 37 playoff games before his prime and a lot of that when he was just a depth player that's a little misleading, although Zetterberg did put up better point totals more often in their primes. In the regular season Zetterberg had a better points per game like twice though and Datsyuk almost consistently had better possession metrics. Peak Zetterberg is one of the most underrated players ever though and both would hold their own head to head with anyone besides the big 4. I watched them at their peaks and they were incredible along with Lidstrom, pretty much owned the play in all zones.

 

[SotasicA]

Well considering Datsyuk had like 12 points in his first 37 playoff games before his prime and a lot of that when he was just a depth player that's a little misleading, although Zetterberg did put up better point totals more often in their primes. In the regular season Zetterberg had a better points per game like twice though and Datsyuk almost consistently had better possession metrics. Peak Zetterberg is one of the most underrated players ever though and both would hold their own head to head with anyone besides the big 4. I watched them at their peaks and they were incredible along with Lidstrom, pretty much owned the play in all zones.

Remember when Nyquist and Tatar were supposed to be the bext Zetterberg and Datsyuk?

 

[sr edler]

Maybe a deep playoff run or cup win makes him talked about in a bit higher regard

Deep playoff run? Pavel Bure? He has the 2nd longest point streak ever (16 games) in a single playoffs only behind Bryan Trottier (18 games) on the wide open 1980s dynasty Islanders.... Bure's best playoffs is better than Datsyuk's best playoffs. Bure's best playoffs is also better than many Conn Smythe performances (including Ovechkin's which should have gone to Kuznetsov). Claude Lemieux won a Conn Smythe in 95 with 3 assists (!) and 16 points. Then the next year (96) Lemieux won another Cup while finishing 9th (!) in scoring on his own team behind all-time offensive juggernauts Uwe Krupp, Scott Young & Adam Deadmarsh.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Secondly, Datsyuk is not a total package. He's a good two way player, but he lacks the dimension of physicality and intimidation present in true total package players like Howe, Potvin, and Messier.

Datsyuk did not lack physicality at all, he played smart and didn't go out of his way to hit guys, but whenever the right play was to deck a guy he would do it successfully.

 

[newfy]

Just in the sense that nobody cares one bit about Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Bossy, etc in terms of all around game because they were that good.
That defensive awareness should be a consideration in terms of evaluating Bure should be an afterthought, otherwise you would have to start comparing Gretzky with Guy Carbonneau or other great defensive centres who won cups.
I think Bergeron would match up equally with Datsyuk, both have superb aspects to their game, but nobody would think Bergeron is on par with Crosby. Realistically Bure targeted as a Crosby/Jagr level player; not top 5 but close.
Also: Makarov at age 32 debuted with 86pts and Fetisov/Larionov were major parts of cup winning teams way past their prime.

Except we're comparing him to a guy who was disgusting offensively and defensively so it has to come into the equation here. If Carboneau was finishing top 5 in points regularly he would be discussed differently from an all time stand point.

 

[blundluntman]

Peak Datsyuk. He may not score you 50-60 goals but he'll still produce around 100 points while also being a perennial selke winner. Can't really argue against that if you ask me.

 

[1dreamof1cup]

Voted Bure, one of the few that had better hands than Datsyuk. Guy was a speedy magician.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Deep playoff run? Pavel Bure? He has the 2nd longest point streak ever (16 games) in a single playoffs only behind Bryan Trottier (18 games) on the wide open 1980s dynasty Islanders.... Bure's best playoffs is better than Datsyuk's best playoffs. Bure's best playoffs is also better than many Conn Smythe performances (including Ovechkin's which should have gone to Kuznetsov). Claude Lemieux won a Conn Smythe in 95 with 3 assists (!) and 16 points. Then the next year (96) Lemieux won another Cup while finishing 9th (!) in scoring on his own team behind all-time offensive juggernauts Uwe Krupp, Scott Young & Adam Deadmarsh.

Lol.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Both peaked as a hart finalist. Bure finished higher in the ross race (2nd vs 4th), but Datsyuk was the selke winner. Also, those Florida seasons are so overrated. Bure played 25min a game and was the biggest cherry picker in league history. It's not hard to put up pts when you don't have to enter your own zone.

 

[McVespa99]

Bure was more fun to watch. More explosive. More exciting. But also a one dimensional goal suck.
Datsyuk was the better hockey player