Peak Datsyuk vs. Peak Bure

[Dingo]

Datsyuk, but I'm quite high on him. His impact on goal differential over the years is incredible and he was a really efficient scorer as well. I noticed that Quanthockey has P/60 numbers going back to 97-98, and even back to his 2nd season, he was leading the Wings in P/60. All the underlying metrics since 07-08 point to him being incredible. He should be considered the 4th best player of the era over Kane.

Bure was such a good goalscorer and was probably hurt in point totals over the years by a lack of support, but I don't think his offensive impact was enough to make up for Datsyuk's overall game. He got a lot of minutes and free reign offensively. And while he could be solid defensively for a winger, he had periods where he didn't bring it as well.

this is a levelheaded and factual post.

I would put more emphasis on lack of support, though. Datsyuk had one of the best teams to play with and Bure had one of the worst when he was at his most insane in Florida.

Im really unable to decide here, i consider them to be at a very similar level. They are both unquestionably elite in talent, they both were injured too much to really get it all together for more than a couple of seasons, and of course they are very very different types of player. The common immediate reaction to this question, and mine as well, is to take the all around center to build a team with.... but, what if you already have Zetterberg and Toews on your team? All of a sudden an electric winger who can score at an alltime elite rate under any circumstances looks like the Holy Grail.

 

[authentic]

There's certainly some weird stuff going on with Bure's ice time numbers. According to Hockey-Reference, Bure averaged 24:23 and a whopping 26:52 in his two 50+ goal seasons in Florida, and 25:01 in his split season between Florida and New York. And I almost certain this isn't a typo after the fact because and it was widely discussed that he was playing defensemen-type minutes in his 2nd big season in Florida at the time and I specifically remember the 26 minute mark being mentioned. I could probably find an old players guide that would mention it from the time as well. However, the game logs that both Hockey-Reference and NHL show add up to the numbers on the NHL website.

It's possible there was an error in calculation at the time, and that's what Hockey-Reference initially published, and then the game logs came after and it was never corrected, but the NHL has since corrected on their site. I do wonder if there's an error in the numbers though. Bure's splits throughout the season are very weird. In '01, he played over 25 minutes 38 times, including 3 games over 29 minutes, yet somehow also played 21 games under 20 minutes, including 8 games under 16 minutes. It just doesn't seem to make sense. If you look at Jagr that same season for instance, he only played 9 games under 20 minutes and in general his numbers were more consistent.

So I looked at the game log for Bure's lowest ice time. January 12th, 2001 against the Hurricanes, Bure scores the game-tying goal with 23 second left in a game that he didn't receive any penalty minutes, the Panthers were rarely on the PK, and were either tied or behind for most of the game. Yet, Bure only received 15:08 of ice time, 13th on the team. So I added up at the ice time listed and divided by 5, and got 59:38 accounted for. The game went into overtime and ended in a tie. Their goalie Trevor Kidd played 64:55. This seems to suggest there's unaccounted for ice time.

I wonder if they managed his minutes in games he was playing hurt? He was injured quite often compared to Jagr but I can't explain the rest of it. Really I think even if he did play that many minutes those seasons are still insanely impressive considering the time and team he was playing for.

 

[Regal]

I wonder if they managed his minutes in games he was playing hurt? He was injured quite often compared to Jagr but I can't explain the rest of it. Really I think even if he did play those high minutes those seasons are still insanely impressive considering the time and team he was playing for.

I expanded on it more. ESPN gamelogs for those times show completely different minutes including many over 30. It's truly bizarre but I tend to believe the HR numbers because I remember those being published at the time. I do think it was still impressive, but I think counters out part of the lack of teammates situation.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Bure was great but I think he's starting to become really overrated on HF. I suspect it's from younger posters who never saw him play watching his highlight reels. He was really exciting and a great goal scorer...but comparing him to Datsyuk who was the total package? The only time Bure was in his team's zone was during warmups. It's really not close imo.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Datsyuk wasn't even the best defensive forward on his own team most years. Easily Bure.

 

[Voight]

99-00 was quite better



unless its Bure's back to back 99-01 seasons while winning 2 Richards on a pretty poor Panthers team, no less.

Datsyuk has a clear advantage if you include playoffs, but Bure only played 1 round during his peak (4P/4GP)... All in all, its very close.

Bure
99-00 2nd in scoring
00-01 7th

Datsyuk
07-08 4th in scoring
08-09 4th

and very coincidentally, both Bure and Datsyuk finished 3rd and 9th respectively in Hart voting during their 2 year peaks

That all said, theyre are both amazing peaks from 2 amazing players.

Disagree. 1994 was a much better overall season. Besides, in 2000 he really didn't do much aside from park himself at centre ice & wait for a pass.

Theres also the 1994 playoffs to consider.

 

[amnesiac]

Disagree. 1994 was a much better overall season. Besides, in 2000 he really didn't do much aside from park himself at centre ice & wait for a pass.

Theres also the 1994 playoffs to consider.

fine if you consider playoffs, but in terms in reg season only its quite easily 99-00

58G in 74GP and was 2nd in NHL scoring with bad linemates

3rd in Hart voting and a Richard.... 93-94 he was 12th in Hart voting

 

[Voight]

fine if you consider playoffs, but in terms in reg season only its quite easily 99-00

58G in 74GP and was 2nd in NHL scoring with bad linemates

3rd in Hart voting and a Richard.... 93-94 he was 12th in Hart voting

In 1994 he was first in goals and 5th in points... behind Gretzky, Fedorov, Oates & Gilmour - thats quite the competition.

He was also 1st AST in 1994 compared to 2nd in 2000. Sure he had more points but there was also less competition than in 1994.

 

[Guided by Veseys]

Datsyuk was an elite, top of the league player during much of his career.
Bure was one of those incredibly rare super talents. If not for injuries and where he played he would likely be viewed generational.
Certainly on par with Ovechkin as the top Russian

 

[authentic]

Datsyuk was an elite, top of the league player during much of his career.
Bure was one of those incredibly rare super talents. If not for injuries and where he played he would likely be viewed generational.
Certainly on par with Ovechkin as the top Russian

Both were more or less as good as Ovechkin at their peaks. Datsyuk was probably even better to be honest considering his overall impact.

 

[JaegerDice]

Both overrated, but Bure. One dimensional scorer, but pretty good at what he did.

How was Datsyuk overrated?

 

[amnesiac]

In 1994 he was first in goals and 5th in points... behind Gretzky, Fedorov, Oates & Gilmour - thats quite the competition.

He was also 1st AST in 1994 compared to 2nd in 2000. Sure he had more points but there was also less competition than in 1994.

12th vs 3rd in Hart voting isnt because of competition, he was beat out by guys like: Graves, Neely, Richter, and Roenick in 94. He was simply one of the top 3 best players in 2000 unlike 94.

and conversely, he was 1st AST RW in 94 because he DIDNT have much competition at RW (only him and Neely were top 15 in Hart voting)

in 2000 he had A LOT had more competition, where Jagr was obivously 1st AST, and there were 4 RW in the top 7 for Hart voting

 

[Regal]

12th vs 3rd in Hart voting isnt because of competition, he was beat out by guys like: Graves, Neely, Richter, and Roenick in 94. He was simply one of the top 3 best players in 2000 unlike 94.

and conversely, he was 1st AST RW in 94 because he DIDNT have much competition at RW (only him and Neely were top 15 in Hart voting)

in 2000 he had A LOT had more competition, where Jagr was obivously 1st AST, and there were 4 RW in the top 7 for Hart voting

To be fair, Hart voting at that point is mainly random votes by homer writers. It's absurd that Richter or Graves had more Hart votes

 

[Gurglesons]

Both were more or less as good as Ovechkin at their peaks. Datsyuk was probably even better to be honest considering his overall impact.

That is an insane statement.

Ovechkin’s peak is light years better than Datsyuk and Bure.

50+ G and 110 pt physical horse.

 

[Thenameless]

Datsyuk's probably a little better overall, but not enough for me to take him over Bure. Bure plays more like my avatar. Style counts for something.

 

[Ghetty Green]

Bure was great but I think he's starting to become really overrated on HF. I suspect it's from younger posters who never saw him play watching his highlight reels. He was really exciting and a great goal scorer...but comparing him to Datsyuk who was the total package? The only time Bure was in his team's zone was during warmups. It's really not close imo.

I agree Bure has become overrated. This is a bad matchup for him as Datsyuk beats him in every category sans skating and scoring

 

[Kupo]

Bure was an outstanding scorer and skater. But he didn’t do too much to help his team inside his own zone.

He’s the epitome of the cherry picking jackass you play online CHEL with that hovers around the blue line looking for a break.

Daysyuk played hard in all three zones. And was very productive offensively. Love Bure but Datsyuk was the better hockey player in my opinion.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

There's certainly some weird stuff going on with Bure's ice time numbers. According to Hockey-Reference, Bure averaged 24:23 and a whopping 26:52 in his two 50+ goal seasons in Florida, and 25:01 in his split season between Florida and New York. And I almost certain this isn't a typo after the fact because and it was widely discussed that he was playing defensemen-type minutes in his 2nd big season in Florida at the time and I specifically remember the 26 minute mark being mentioned. I could probably find an old players guide that would mention it from the time as well. However, the game logs that both Hockey-Reference and NHL show add up to the numbers on the NHL website.

It's possible there was an error in calculation at the time, and that's what Hockey-Reference initially published, and then the game logs came after and it was never corrected, but the NHL has since corrected on their site. I do wonder if there's an error in the numbers though. Bure's splits throughout the season are very weird. In '01, he played over 25 minutes 38 times, including 3 games over 29 minutes, yet somehow also played 21 games under 20 minutes, including 8 games under 16 minutes. It just doesn't seem to make sense. If you look at Jagr that same season for instance, he only played 9 games under 20 minutes and in general his numbers were more consistent.

So I looked at the game log for Bure's lowest ice time. January 12th, 2001 against the Hurricanes, Bure scores the game-tying goal with 23 second left in a game that he didn't receive any penalty minutes, the Panthers were rarely on the PK, and were either tied or behind for most of the game. Yet, Bure only received 15:08 of ice time, 13th on the team. So I added up at the ice time listed and divided by 5, and got 59:38 accounted for. The game went into overtime and ended in a tie. Their goalie Trevor Kidd played 64:55. This seems to suggest there's unaccounted for ice time.

Looking more, ESPN has the same ice time numbers for Bure, so there's clearly a source that they are coming from. The box scores for this game are also on ESPN and Bure is listed as playing 30:16 instead, and lists 18 games where he actually played over 30 minutes including a 40 minute game against San Jose, and all of them coincide with the low TOI games listed on NHL.

I swear I’ve seen Bure’s minutes being in that 24-26 minute range on NHL.com in the past. I’m almost positive it was there because this was before I was familiar with Hockey Reference so NHL was also my go to for ice time research.

 

[SotasicA]

How was Datsyuk overrated?

Great recent player on a great team ranked higher than he should be ranked.

Now, Larionov I could get behind. But Datsyuk was not in his league. His defensive play was a myth based on takeaways and pick pocketing. Great hands, though, and a great player. Just not as great as people give him credit for.

 

[sr edler]

When the Wings had to defend a crucial 3 on 5 shorthanded situation in the SC Finals against Crosby & Malkin, did they throw out Datsyuk there or did they throw out Zetterberg? I'm asking for a friend.

Datsyuk's defensive prowess is a bit overrated, yes. It's an exaggerated narrative. It's not as exaggerated narrative as "Kovalev is the most talented player ever ever" or "Bure cherry picked all of his goals", but it's still exaggerated.

Bure has the second longest point streak ever in a single playoffs, 16 games, only behind Bryan Trottier (18 games) in the wide open 1980s on the dynasty Islanders.

In light of W. Nylander's struggles when he came back mid-season from his holdout, I find it amusing to reminisce when Bure came back late season (in 98–99) from a holdout, without a training camp, just training by his own in Russia, and instantly, in his first game with his new club he had never played a single game with before, looked absolutely amazing and scored at a league shattering 1.45 PPG clip for 10+ games until he got injured.

 

[K Fleur]

Datsyuk wasn't even the best defensive forward on his own team most years. Easily Bure.

Even if this is true; being the second best defensive forward to Henrik Zetterberg isn’t exactly anything to hold against somebody.

 

[Thenameless]

I agree Bure has become overrated. This is a bad matchup for him as Datsyuk beats him in every category sans skating and scoring

Those are pretty important categories don't you think? I'd also add that Bure was a more ferocious hitter when his mean streak came out. Do you recall his hit on Churla after Churla had been roughing him up a bit? Let's just say he's no Sedin.

 

[Brucelenok]

Those are pretty important categories don't you think? I'd also add that Bure was a more ferocious hitter when his mean streak came out. Do you recall his hit on Churla after Churla had been roughing him up a bit? Let's just say he's no Sedin.

Simply not true. Datsyuk despite his height and weight was an excellent hitter. He was challenging and hitting people twice his size - Chara, Perry, Artyukhin etc. (in KHL). He was actually better hitter than Bure.

 

[Brucelenok]

 

[RussianRacket]

Datsyuk was the better overall player and better career but Bure's peak was better, and Bure is the overall more memorable player.