Peak and Prime: Malkin vs Draisaitl

[BertMcDrai]

He is not winning the Selke; like Malkin, he needs to show he is not liability on defense, which is all you can ask for a player who is relied on so much offensively, rather than confirm is a great defensive forward.

Kucherov is pacing for the Ross but, again, the doesn't change the fact that 120 points is not that impressive to begin with.

The Richard contenders this year are clearly the weakest in the past four years. There may be only two players at above 0.60 vs. an average of 6 from '22 to '24.

He has shown this year that he can be great defensively, it's by far his best defensive season...so why should he not get Selke votes?
Great +/- , great on the Dot, also more defensive zone starts than any of the top offensive forwards.
I am not saying he will win but he should be at least in the run.

Who cares who the contenders for the rocket are this year?And how is this even relevant?
That doesn't makes sense cause then you would need to compare those to the Richard contenders in Malkin days and you will find out they are much worse...so you are only delivering more and more arguments in favor for Drai.

He is clearly ahead of everybody else in the Richard race, that is all that matters.
That is how comparisons work.
I am pretty sure they are pacing more gpg than in Malkins days which shows even more how good his season is.
So why do you compare this to the last three seasons?
That doesn't make any sense...we are talking about this season or even bring up Drais MVP season if you want to compare something.

 

[daver]

Who cares who the contenders for the rocket are this year?And how is this even relevant?
That doesn't makes sense cause then you would need to compare those to the Richard contenders in Malkin days and you will find out they are much worse...so you are only delivering more and more arguments in favor for Drai.

You seem to be lacking the ability to apply context to raw numbers in the form of relative dominance to respective peers.

It is indisputable that Malkin was more dominant on a per game basis offensively overall and was equal as a goalscorer, if not better. That needs zero context.

Malkin's era rivals for goalscoring includes two of three best goalscorers since 2005 - Ovechkin, Stamkos.

 

[daver]

He is clearly ahead of everybody else in the Richard race, that is all that matters.
That is how comparisons work.
I am pretty sure they are pacing more gpg than in Malkins days which shows even more how good his season is.
So why do you compare this to the last three seasons?
That doesn't make any sense...we are talking about this season or even bring up Drais MVP season if you want to compare something.

If Drai is running away with the Richard this season then Malkin "ran away" with the Art Ross in 11/12, something that Draisaitl won't even win, and did it in 75 games while putting up an equally impressive goal total, all things considered.

Draisaitl is not doing anything "for the ages" so far this season.

Top Hart/Lindsay contender? Sure.

One of the best seasons in the last 20 years? Nope, not even particularly close. Maybe Top 5 in the past four seasons but that is certainly debatable.

 

[daver]

I am pretty sure they are pacing more gpg than in Malkins days which shows even more how good his season is.

No, it doesn't. It shows the opposite. Your "60 goals, 120 points!!" narrative is relegated to meaningless if you don't recognize that a bunch of players have hit that GPG and/or PPG - McDavid, Mack, Kucherov, Matthews, Pastrnak in the past three seasons.

And before you offer that players are "better" now than when Malkin played, older players like Crosby, Ovechkin, Kane and Giroux have held their own against the current players.

 

[BertMcDrai]

You seem to be lacking the ability to apply context to raw numbers in the form of relative dominance to respective peers.

It is indisputable that Malkin was more dominant on a per game basis offensively overall and was equal as a goalscorer, if not better. That needs zero context.

Malkin's era rivals for goalscoring includes two of three best goalscorers since 2005 - Ovechkin, Stamkos.

You seem to be lacking everything...sorry.

You say he was a better goalscorer?

Drai: 2,2,4,4,4 place and now first in the Richard Race and still in his prime to add more.
Malkin: 2,4,4 place that's it...that's the list, how can this be better??

Drai is clearly the better overall goal scorer...he also has a higher peak in goals and points in a season...in his MVP season he had 110p in 71 games and the next one had 97p and you say Malkin was clear better with his 109p in 75 games while the second best also had 97p??
Please explain the math here...it doesn't make any sense...the separation to the peers is the same and it favors slightly Drai.

Malkin has only one 50 goal season, Drai has already three (if it wasn't for COVID it would be 4 or 5), Malkin has three 100p seasons Drai has already 5 and if it wasn't for COVID he would have one more.

Ovi and Stamkos are still around and now you have Matthews and Pasta as pure goal scorer added, so it even gots harder now
to be at the top.

Still every point you trying to add somehow favors Draisaitl.

I don't want to say who was the better player because it's hard to compare but your arguments are not good, it's more the opposite, you bring up points that favors Draisaitl.

 

[daver]

Malkin: 2,4,4 place that's it...that's the list, how can this be better??

The same way that the #2 and #3 scorers from last year are better point producers than Draisaitl this year.

If you don't get this, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[daver]

Ovi and Stamkos are still around and now you have Matthews and Pasta as pure goal scorer added, so it even gots harder now
to be at the top.

You have convinced me now. Beating a 39 year OV and a 34 year old Stamkos for the Rocket is a season "for the ages".

 

[Toby91ca]

And Drai won his Hart in 71 games with 110 points, how is this not better than Malkin 75 games with 109 points...at minimum it's equal, and the second best scorers in each year had 97, so it's easy to compare.
So every point you made is not plausible, it's even closer to vice

So, it’s actually pretty simple to suggest his season in 2019/20 was not better than Malkin’s 2011/12. 1) while raw stats are similar, actually slightly better for Draisaitl, overall league scoring was 12% higher in Draisaitl’s year….but more importantly 2) Draisaitl did not dominate the competition meant to the same extent. On a PPG basis both were #1, but vs #2, Malkin was 20% better, Draisaitl being 2% better, vs #3, Malkin was 23% better, Draisaitl was 12% better, vs #9, Malkin was 45% better, Draisaitl was better

 

[BertMcDrai]

The same way that the #2 and #3 scorers from last year are better point producers than Draisaitl this year.

If you don't get this, I don't know what to tell you.

We are comparing Drai and Malkin?

Drai is second in points. (Nobody cares ppg)

But if you try to come with points per game, Malkin was never the best ppg player in a season...not once...that's not how dominance works.
Drai was in his MVP season.

 

[BertMcDrai]

So, it’s actually pretty simple to suggest his season in 2019/20 was not better than Malkin’s 2011/12. 1) while raw stats are similar, actually slightly better for Draisaitl, overall league scoring was 12% higher in Draisaitl’s year….but more importantly 2) Draisaitl did not dominate the competition meant to the same extent. On a PPG basis both were #1, but vs #2, Malkin was 20% better, Draisaitl being 2% better, vs #3, Malkin was 23% better, Draisaitl was 12% better, vs #9, Malkin was 45% better, Draisaitl was better

Malkin wasn't first in ppg..
Crosby was first in this year and yes I know that he hasn't played a lot but it's enough to take it into the context cause you are taking McDavid here as the second best ppg player into context.
That's not how it works, you are clearly subtracting the best player in Malkins example and we are talking about being better than McDavid in Drais example...please be fair and do it right.

Crosby was 1.68ppg in this season he went down..Malkin finished with 1.45, that's not how dominance works.
Crosby played slightly over a quarter of a season it's more than likely that he had finished with a higher PPG than Malkin.

 

[Toby91ca]

Malkin wasn't first in ppg..
Crosby was first in this year and yes I know that he hasn't played a lot but it's enough to take it into the context cause you are taking McDavid here as the second best ppg player into context.
That's not how it works, you are clearly subtracting the best player in Malkins example and we are talking about being better than McDavid in Drais example...please be fair and do it right.

If you want to include 22 game season to show Malkin wasn’t #1, not sure what to say…but what if you take out Crosby and McDavid then…seems to be the right thing to do…those are the two guys that overshadow these 2.

Also, even if you want to use that 22 game sample to show Malkin wasn’t #1 that year, considering league scoring, his stats were still better than Draisaitl. Also, being #1 one year does not mean you are automatically better than any #2 ever, that makes no sense…look at production vs rest of the league

 

[daver]

Drai is second in points. (Nobody cares ppg)

You are assuming he plays every game from now. Assuming Kucherov does too, he wins the Ross.

 

[BertMcDrai]

You are assuming he plays every game from now. Assuming Kucherov does too, he wins the Ross.

Drai is almost never injured while Kuch is sometimes...if I had to bet I would bet on Drai...but that's all speculation at this point.
If Drai decides to play high risk and high reward in empty net situations he will run away with it...but that's also speculation...we will see what happens.
We can discuss this again at seasons end.

If you want to include 22 game season to show Malkin wasn’t #1, not sure what to say…but what if you take out Crosby and McDavid then…seems to be the right thing to do…those are the two guys that overshadow these 2.

Also, even if you want to use that 22 game sample to show Malkin wasn’t #1 that year, considering league scoring, his stats were still better than Draisaitl. Also, being #1 one year does not mean you are automatically better than any #2 ever, that makes no sense…look at production vs rest of the league

Ok let's take both out of the equation you made before and I think it's all pretty close and do not really favor Malkin.

 

[Toby91ca]

Ok let's take both out of the equation you made before and I think it's all pretty close and do not really favor Malkin.

Did you even look at the result if you remove both Crosby and McDavid from the comparisons? This is what it would show....PPG basis.

Malkin - 1.45 (translate to 1.63 using scoring levels of 2011/12 vs. 2019/20)
#2 - 1.21 (20% diff)
#3 - 1.18 (23% diff)
#10 - 0.99 (47% diff)

Draisaitl - 1.55
#2 - 1.38 (12% diff)
#3 - 1.36 (14% diff)
#10 - 1.13 (37% diff)

Not suggesting this is a bloodbath in favour of Malkin, but the comparison certainly does favour Malkin

 

[10YearsHaveGone]

He is not winning the Selke so let's take that out of the equation. Both players can look good defensively when they are on but also can look terrible when they are off.

He is not pacing for the Ross and isn't pacing for a particularly impressive point total regardless. Malkin won the Ross clearly in only 75 games.

His best bet is the Lindsay and Rocket given the Hart could be given to someone more "valuable". It doesn't matter if he wins the Hart or not.

He is pacing for the 5th best goal total in the past four seasons; 60 goals is the new 50 goals. Malkin's goal total was T4th in the first part of 2010's. Again he did this in only 75 games.

On a per game basis, Malkin was the clearly superior player; if they played head to head, they tie in goals, Malkin wins the Art Ross, and wins the Lindsay given he did this in fewer games and without having a GOAT talent on the ice with him for a lot less time so he likely takes the Hart.

Looks like we just disagree. But I will state that Draisaitl is playing very strong defensive hockey right now and will get some considerable Selke votes, much more than Malkin ever got in his career. I would not be surprised to see him in the top 5.

Again, Im talking about a potential end state where Drai wins the Hart, Rocket, Lindsay, Ross, with Selke consideration. Not a very outlandish thought considering where things stand on Jan 23. I know certain Penguins fans project out partial seasons into larger samples.

In this world that season is absolutely in the conversation for being equal or better than Malkin 2012.

 

[daver]

Did you even look at the result if you remove both Crosby and McDavid from the comparisons? This is what it would show....PPG basis.

Malkin - 1.45 (translate to 1.63 using scoring levels of 2011/12 vs. 2019/20)
#2 - 1.21 (20% diff)
#3 - 1.18 (23% diff)
#10 - 0.99 (47% diff)

Draisaitl - 1.55
#2 - 1.38 (12% diff)
#3 - 1.36 (14% diff)
#10 - 1.13 (37% diff)

Not suggesting this is a bloodbath in favour of Malkin, but the comparison certainly does favour Malkin

The #10 PPG in Drai's season was 1.20 (min. of 41 games). That makes the #10 difference 29%, not 37%.

Makes the difference more clearly in Malkin's favour.

Again, Im talking about a potential end state where Drai wins the Hart, Rocket, Lindsay, Ross, with Selke consideration. Not a very outlandish thought considering where things stand on Jan 23. I know certain Penguins fans project out partial seasons into larger samples.

In this world that season is absolutely in the conversation for being equal or better than Malkin 2012.

Not if it's clearly an inferior season offensively which has been clearly shown.

 

[10YearsHaveGone]

Not if it's clearly an inferior season offensively which has been clearly shown.

Lol ok Davey boy. I listed a hypothetical, yet realistic, end state for Drai's season. Its very clearly equal if not better than Malkins 2012. I will simply restate. If Drai wins the Hart, Lindsay, Rocket, Ross, significant Selke consideration, then yes his season was better than Malkins.

Sorry you don't like it. But please come up with something better than "nu uh!"

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Malkin wasn't first in ppg..
Crosby was first in this year and yes I know that he hasn't played a lot but it's enough to take it into the context cause you are taking McDavid here as the second best ppg player into context.
That's not how it works, you are clearly subtracting the best player in Malkins example and we are talking about being better than McDavid in Drais example...please be fair and do it right.

Crosby was 1.68ppg in this season he went down..Malkin finished with 1.45, that's not how dominance works.
Crosby played slightly over a quarter of a season it's more than likely that he had finished with a higher PPG than Malkin.

You can’t include Crosby he played too few games, more importantly Crosby had Malkin to boost him for the games he did play, whereas for most of the season, Malkin didn’t have Crosby to boost his own stats. It actually makes sense from a statistical perspective to include McDavid but not Crosby in the comparison as Toby did, due to the differences in sample size.

 

[daver]

Malkin wasn't first in ppg..
Crosby was first in this year and yes I know that he hasn't played a lot but it's enough to take it into the context cause you are taking McDavid here as the second best ppg player into context.
That's not how it works, you are clearly subtracting the best player in Malkins example and we are talking about being better than McDavid in Drais example...please be fair and do it right.

Crosby was 1.68ppg in this season he went down..Malkin finished with 1.45, that's not how dominance works.
Crosby played slightly over a quarter of a season it's more than likely that he had finished with a higher PPG than Malkin.

You think McDavid was full capacity that season? He was recovering from a knee injury.

He beat has beaten Drai badly ever since.

This is reason #1 why you look at a large sample size like the other poster has done to eliminate biases.

It is not an opinion that Malkin beat his competition in a clearly superior way than Draisaitl did or is doing now, it is an indisputable fact.

 

[tfwnogf]

Draisaitl ainec.

 

[Toby91ca]

The #10 PPG in Drai's season was 1.20 (min. of 41 games). That makes the #10 difference 29%, not 37%.

Makes the difference more clearly in Malkin's favour.


Not if it's clearly an inferior season offensively which has been clearly shown.

Yeah....I made a stupid filter mistake....I filtered for guys playing 64 games or more to remove McDavid, but it removed a couple other guys I didn't mean to because of that.....to your point, the mistake made Draisaitl's look better, but still showed clearly below what Malkin did

 

[Toby91ca]

Lol ok Davey boy. I listed a hypothetical, yet realistic, end state for Drai's season. Its very clearly equal if not better than Malkins 2012. I will simply restate. If Drai wins the Hart, Lindsay, Rocket, Ross, significant Selke consideration, then yes his season was better than Malkins.

Sorry you don't like it. But please come up with something better than "nu uh!"

Honestly, we can make up a potential realistic result for this year that will be better than Malkin's 2011/12 season, but I'd suggest the only reasonable approach to take at this point would be to take what they've done so far this year and assume everyone continues at the same pace. That would land Draisaitl at #3 in scoring. How could that be better than Malkin's season where we won the scoring title in dominating fashion?

 

[Toby91ca]

Draisaitl ainec.

So, to move off the one season vs. one season thing I've been looking at, I did go back and look at overall careers. I have to be honest with you, I had the "ainec" terminology, especially when it's not only close, but in this case, it's extremely close call in terms of who I'd consider the better player 10 years into their careers (since that is where Draisaitl is right now). I think you could argue for either.

This is a quick summary:

First team all-star - Malkin has 3, Draisaitl 1
Calder - Malkin
Cups - 2 for Malkin
Conn Smythe - 1 for Malkin
Ross - 2 for Malkin, 1 for Draisaitl
Hart - 1 for each (Malkin was top 2 in voting 2 other times, Draisaitl was top 10 in voting 3 other times....7,8,9)
Pearson - 1 for each
Top PPG (filtering for >25gms) - 1 for each
Top 2 PPG - 3 for each
Top 3 PPG - 4 for Malkin, 3 for Draisaitl
Top 4 PPG - 4 for each
Top 5 PPG - 5 for Malkin, 4 for Draisaitl
Top 10 PPG - 7 for each
Top 2 PTS - 3 for each
Top 10 PTS - 3 for Malkin, 6 for Draisaitl

Through their first 10 seasons, Malkin was 2nd in PPG and 4th in PTS, Draisaitl was 4th in PPG and 3rd in PTS.

In my mind, not only is it definitely CLOSE...bit if a toss up. NOW.....when all is said and done, I have a hard time thinking it won't clearly be Draisaitl as seen to have had the better career since after those first 10 seasons, Malkin still had some decent years, but it certainly looks like Draisaitl will be competing at the top for longer.

 

[BertMcDrai]

Honestly, we can make up a potential realistic result for this year that will be better than Malkin's 2011/12 season, but I'd suggest the only reasonable approach to take at this point would be to take what they've done so far this year and assume everyone continues at the same pace. That would land Draisaitl at #3 in scoring. How could that be better than Malkin's season where we won the scoring title in dominating fashion?

It was less dominant than Drai in 19/20 as already posted...less separation to second place in more games played and this with Crosby out as the best player with a much higher PPG than Malkin while Drai won it with better PPG than McD.

And also if Crosby weren't injured this year he would never won any hardware this year cause Crosby was on a mission at the start of the season.

 

[tfwnogf]

So, to move off the one season vs. one season thing I've been looking at, I did go back and look at overall careers. I have to be honest with you, I had the "ainec" terminology, especially when it's not only close, but in this case, it's extremely close call in terms of who I'd consider the better player 10 years into their careers (since that is where Draisaitl is right now). I think you could argue for either.

This is a quick summary:

First team all-star - Malkin has 3, Draisaitl 1
Calder - Malkin
Cups - 2 for Malkin
Conn Smythe - 1 for Malkin
Ross - 2 for Malkin, 1 for Draisaitl
Hart - 1 for each (Malkin was top 2 in voting 2 other times, Draisaitl was top 10 in voting 3 other times....7,8,9)
Pearson - 1 for each
Top PPG (filtering for >25gms) - 1 for each
Top 2 PPG - 3 for each
Top 3 PPG - 4 for Malkin, 3 for Draisaitl
Top 4 PPG - 4 for each
Top 5 PPG - 5 for Malkin, 4 for Draisaitl
Top 10 PPG - 7 for each
Top 2 PTS - 3 for each
Top 10 PTS - 3 for Malkin, 6 for Draisaitl

Through their first 10 seasons, Malkin was 2nd in PPG and 4th in PTS, Draisaitl was 4th in PPG and 3rd in PTS.

In my mind, not only is it definitely CLOSE...bit if a toss up. NOW.....when all is said and done, I have a hard time thinking it won't clearly be Draisaitl as seen to have had the better career since after those first 10 seasons, Malkin still had some decent years, but it certainly looks like Draisaitl will be competing at the top for longer.

I say ainec to trigger people. It's close, but it's still drai. Let's break down your summary.


First team all-star - Malkin has 3, Draisaitl 1 meh, basically irrelevant
Calder - Malkin meh, older when he came into the league
Cups - 2 for Malkin team trophy
Conn Smythe - 1 for Malkin drai has put up conn smythe level performances
Ross - 2 for Malkin, 1 for Draisaitl drai would have had more if not for teammate, whereas crosby didnt threaten evgeni as much as mcdavid does
Hart - 1 for each (Malkin was top 2 in voting 2 other times, Draisaitl was top 10 in voting 3 other times....7,8,9) tie
Pearson - 1 for each tie
Top PPG (filtering for >25gms) - 1 for each none of this matters
Top 2 PPG - 3 for each
Top 3 PPG - 4 for Malkin, 3 for Draisaitl
Top 4 PPG - 4 for each
Top 5 PPG - 5 for Malkin, 4 for Draisaitl
Top 10 PPG - 7 for each
Top 2 PTS - 3 for each
Top 10 PTS - 3 for Malkin, 6 for Draisaitl who cares

Drai will have 6 100 point seasons after this year. 4 of which are 50+ goals and 50+ assists. Incredibly hard to do. He's more durable than Malkin was. More consistent. Malkin has 3 100 points seasons, 1 50+ goals (and 1 at 47 goals). He has his 36 point conn smythe, drai had 32 points in 16 games, 31 in 25 when he was injured. Easily conn smythe numbers, he put the team on his back. Drai is the better goal scorer, and better play maker. He's basically what Malkin could have been without injuries. Prime is no contest, it's Drai. Peak is a little closer but I still take Drai. Ainec.