Peak and Prime: Malkin vs Draisaitl

[daver]

Crosby was in the ice for 48% of his points in 08/09 the playoffs and 59% in the regular season...McD was on the ice for 58% of Drais points in 19/20 regular season...so it's identical...you are just excluding third assists etc.
But time on the ice together makes much more sense.
In 08/09 Malkin has almost identical numbers to Drai in 19/20 when sharing the ice with Crosby and McDavid.
08/09 wasn't better than Drai 19/20.

And keep in mind Malkin had prime James Neal on his line 2011/12 who was over PPG in this season.

If you want to claim those two regular seasons are similar, no argument from me. But Malkin was even better in 11/12 without Crosby and even better in the '09 playoffs with Crosby playing a clearly less influential role than McDavid did for Draisaitl.

The key is that they were not together at ES which created offensive depth for the Pens. And they have been separated at ES almost all the time since the 08/09 season.

As for the attempted namedropping if James Neal, Draisaitl has had plenty of time with RNH and Hyman, against better matchups than Malkin did in 11/12 but has not been able to consistently carry a line on his own.

 

[daver]

Crosby was in the ice for 48% of his points in 08/09 the playoffs

What are the numbers for Draisaitl in the 2022 playoffs? I am guessing it's 80% to 85% of Draisaitl's points

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Draisaitl is almost 2.0ppg without McD even in the lineup dating back to 2019/20...you can check if you want, it's not his fault McD isn't as injury proned as Crosby back in the days.

And as I mentioned before, in Malkins MVP 08/09 season Crosby was on the ice for more than 60% of the goals for of Malkin..it's one of those HFmyths that he has done it all on his own back then...I don't mind that he has a huge point sharing with Crosby but everyone has when it comes to Drai and McD for no reason.

What's the longest stretch of games he's missed in that time, like 5 games? So no that doesn't show anything. It might not be his fault McDavid isn't injury prone, but he's also been stapled to him his whole career. He hasn't had a dominant season without him. Hence ultimate Robin.

 

[Albatros]

The Penguins were among the top favorites in both 2008/09 and in 2011/12. Sure Crosby was out for much of the second year and Malkin did well to cover that, but the 2019/20 Oilers were a far more mediocre team overall and so labeling Draisaitl some kind of a "Robin" in comparison comes across as quite disingenuous.

 

[McFlash97]

If there was any doubt. Draisaitl is putting up an all around season for the ages.

Malkin was never at the level Draisaitl is at the moment. Leon wants his cake and wants to eat it too.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think Drai.. its close at peak but for sure his prime is better and against better competition too.

 

[phrenssoa]

What's the longest stretch of games he's missed in that time, like 5 games? So no that doesn't show anything. It might not be his fault McDavid isn't injury prone, but he's also been stapled to him his whole career. He hasn't had a dominant season without him. Hence ultimate Robin.

Six consecutive games is the longest stretch I believe. This was during the 2019-20 season which ended in Draisaitl winning the Hart, Lindsay and Art Ross.

 

[Paper]

I want to change my vote to Draisaitl for both now that they have the same amount of Stanley Cup rings.

 

[GhostfaceWu]

I want to change my vote to Draisaitl for both now that they have the same amount of Stanley Cup rings.

I mean we all know Patrick maroon is on the same level as malkin.

 

[TheStatican]

I want to change my vote to Draisaitl for both now that they have the same amount of Stanley Cup rings.

Someone call the POlice we've found the thief!!!

 

[TheLegend27]

The next couple of games won’t bode well for the “Draisaitl can’t play without McDavid” or the “can’t drive his own line” crowd. Definitely the Hart favorite as of now.

 

[ewfwgfwahbger]

I saw the Penguins in MTL a few times. Crosby never showed up. Saw Lemieux on his first game from cancer. Malkin in his art ross years.

 

[daver]

The next couple of games won’t bode well for the “Draisaitl can’t play without McDavid” or the “can’t drive his own line” crowd. Definitely the Hart favorite as of now.

That's cool. Is he having as good a season as Malkin's 2011/12?

 

[TheLegend27]

That's cool. Is he having as good a season as Malkin's 2011/12?

I don’t think he has an argument for peak level of play, but it can be argued his prime is shaping up to be arguably better than Malkin’s. Draisaitl’s point finishes since 2018-2019 are: 4, 1, 2, 4, 2, 7, 2(currently). Not to mention he’s second in playoff ppg out of all current active players. I know Malkin has had his fair share of injuries and probably would’ve been seen as generational without them but drai’s finishes are just incredibly consistent from someone who can be seen as 2nd-5th best player of his generation.

 

[daver]

I don’t think he has an argument for peak level of play, but it can be argued his prime is shaping up to be arguably better than Malkin’s. Draisaitl’s point finishes since 2018-2019 are: 4, 1, 2, 4, 2, 7, 2(currently). Not to mention he’s second in playoff ppg out of all current active players. I know Malkin has had his fair share of injuries and probably would’ve been seen as generational without them but drai’s finishes are just incredibly consistent from someone who can be seen as 2nd-5th best player of his generation.

Sure, there is an argument to be made. I think Malkin reached such a clearly higher peak though that some may never want to place Draisaitl higher.

 

[10YearsHaveGone]

There is a world where Draisaitl has a 60+ goal, 120+ point season while winning a Rocket, Ross, Hart, and receiving significant Selke votes. If this happens an argument can be made his best season is better than Malkin's best. I think he already has the prime locked down, he is simply more consistent and less injured over the last 7 years (and counting) than Malkin was in his prime.

 

[daver]

There is a world where Draisaitl has a 60+ goal, 120+ point season while winning a Rocket, Ross, Hart, and receiving significant Selke votes. If this happens an argument can be made his best season is better than Malkin's best. I think he already has the prime locked down, he is simply more consistent and less injured over the last 7 years (and counting) than Malkin was in his prime.

If he didn't dominate the league as much as Malin did, then there is no argument. He currently is not dominating the league as much as Malkin did. Comparing raw numbers makes no sense.

Everything about Malkin points to a higher peak. He was better at a younger age than Drain and has the better playoff run.

 

[10YearsHaveGone]

If he didn't dominate the league as much as Malin did, then there is no argument. He currently is not dominating the league as much as Malkin did. Comparing raw numbers makes no sense.

Everything about Malkin points to a higher peak. He was better at a younger age than Drain and has the better playoff run.

I listed a realistic end state for this season in which Drai dominated the league to an equal, or higher level than Malkin in 2012. A Rocket, Ross, Hart, maybe Lindsay, and potential Selke. If that happens, he absolutely has an argument for a higher peak.

As to Malkin being better younger, sure, he was. His age 20-22 seasons are better than Drai's. Drai entered his prime at age 23. And during his prime from 2018 to now he has been more consistent and overall better than Malkin during his prime from age 21 to 31.

 

[Toby91ca]

Draisaitl is almost 2.0ppg without McD even in the lineup dating back to 2019/20...you can check if you want, it's not his fault McD isn't as injury proned as Crosby back in the days.

I think I checked it accurately and it really isn't close to 2.0ppg. It's still very, very good production, 25pts in 17gms, but that's 1.47ppg, not close to 2ppg. As someone already mentioned though, it is a bit irrelevant as it's such a small sample size. Even if it was all at once it's still a small sample size, but it's 17 games over 5.5 seasons. 6 game stretch in 19/20 followed by a one-off game later that season. One-off game in 21/22, 2 game stretch in 23/24 followed by a 3 game stretch later in the year and 4 games this year....earlier 3 game stretch and the game last night.

Agree with you though....it's not his fault he hasn't played much without McDavid in the line up.....that said, it's always going to be held a bit against him. Malkin has had a great career...but overshadowed by Crosby....same for Draisaitl...rightly or wrongly.

 

[Toby91ca]

I listed a realistic end state for this season in which Drai dominated the league to an equal, or higher level than Malkin in 2012. A Rocket, Ross, Hart, maybe Lindsay, and potential Selke. If that happens, he absolutely has an argument for a higher peak.

As to Malkin being better younger, sure, he was. His age 20-22 seasons are better than Drai's. Drai entered his prime at age 23. And during his prime from 2018 to now he has been more consistent and overall better than Malkin during his prime from age 21 to 31.

It's certainly possible Draisaitl goes on a dominant run and finishes this season in dominant fashion that is better than Malkin's 2012 season....but right now, he's in the hunt for scoring title, but trailing, so tracking to not finish #1 in scoring. I'm not sure how we could compare that to one where Malkin won the scoring title by 12pts and ignoring Crosby (who played only 22 games) led the league with 1.45ppg with #2 at 1.21.

I'm going to make it clear though....I'm just looking at this very quickly in isolation....I haven't given either player a ton of thought to be honest over the years. I honestly tend to forget Malkin's Art Ross titles because of the Crosby factor....same story with Draisaitl....I think their careers are fairly equal based on a super high level thought without digging into actual stats.

 

[BertMcDrai]

I think I checked it accurately and it really isn't close to 2.0ppg. It's still very, very good production, 25pts in 17gms, but that's 1.47ppg, not close to 2ppg. As someone already mentioned though, it is a bit irrelevant as it's such a small sample size. Even if it was all at once it's still a small sample size, but it's 17 games over 5.5 seasons. 6 game stretch in 19/20 followed by a one-off game later that season. One-off game in 21/22, 2 game stretch in 23/24 followed by a 3 game stretch later in the year and 4 games this year....earlier 3 game stretch and the game last night.

Agree with you though....it's not his fault he hasn't played much without McDavid in the line up.....that said, it's always going to be held a bit against him. Malkin has had a great career...but overshadowed by Crosby....same for Draisaitl...rightly or wrongly.

Thanks for taking the time to search for the numbers as it is hard to track over the years.

I have only on e point in addition, I think the sample isn't so small, because it goes back over a six year span...so you can exclude that it was only a small run where everything went right...he has shown it each time he could, there is not more one can do.

I do think Drai and Malkin are very equal when you see the grand picture.
But Drais prime is already much longer than Malkins.

 

[daver]

I listed a realistic end state for this season in which Drai dominated the league to an equal, or higher level than Malkin in 2012. A Rocket, Ross, Hart, maybe Lindsay, and potential Selke. If that happens, he absolutely has an argument for a higher peak.

As to Malkin being better younger, sure, he was. His age 20-22 seasons are better than Drai's. Drai entered his prime at age 23. And during his prime from 2018 to now he has been more consistent and overall better than Malkin during his prime from age 21 to 31.

He is not winning the Selke so let's take that out of the equation. Both players can look good defensively when they are on but also can look terrible when they are off.

He is not pacing for the Ross and isn't pacing for a particularly impressive point total regardless. Malkin won the Ross clearly in only 75 games.

His best bet is the Lindsay and Rocket given the Hart could be given to someone more "valuable". It doesn't matter if he wins the Hart or not.

He is pacing for the 5th best goal total in the past four seasons; 60 goals is the new 50 goals. Malkin's goal total was T4th in the first part of 2010's. Again he did this in only 75 games.

On a per game basis, Malkin was the clearly superior player; if they played head to head, they tie in goals, Malkin wins the Art Ross, and wins the Lindsay given he did this in fewer games and without having a GOAT talent on the ice with him for a lot less time so he likely takes the Hart.

 

[daver]

Agree with you though....it's not his fault he hasn't played much without McDavid in the line up.....that said, it's always going to be held a bit against him. Malkin has had a great career...but overshadowed by Crosby....same for Draisaitl...rightly or wrongly.

Drai is less proven than Malkin to produce era best numbers for starters. Malkin's 11/12 is clearly superior to Drai's best performance, a per game dominance that is among the best of the post 2005 lockout era, as his 2009 playoffs; Top 3 in the past 30 years.

Even if his numbers were as good, Crosby and Malkin on the ice at ES was not a thing after the 2008/09 regular season and the 2009 playoffs was a clinic by Malkin on how to produce with less than optimal linemates. Crosby and Malkin both played lots of time without the other in the lineup and/or underperforming and didn't miss a beat; they actually played better given the pressure was on them to be the exclusive offensive contributor.

Some consideration is given to Malkin facing easier matchups due to Crosby but that is not the same as having one's production clearly influenced by having a GOAT talent on the ice at the same time, and the same argument applies when Drai is centring his own line.

IMO, Drai doesn't have to do much to erase this shadow but that doesn't elevate him up to Malkin's peak.

 

[BertMcDrai]

He is not winning the Selke so let's take that out of the equation. Both players can look good defensively when they are on but also can look terrible when they are off.

He is not pacing for the Ross and isn't pacing for a particularly impressive point total regardless. Malkin won the Ross clearly in only 75 games.

His best bet is the Lindsay and Rocket given the Hart could be given to someone more "valuable". It doesn't matter if he wins the Hart or not.

He is pacing for the 5th best goal total in the past four seasons; 60 goals is the new 50 goals. Malkin's goal total was T4th in the first part of 2010's. Again he did this in only 75 games.

On a per game basis, Malkin was the clearly superior player; if they played head to head, they tie in goals, Malkin wins the Art Ross, and wins the Lindsay given he did this in fewer games and without having a GOAT talent on the ice with him for a lot less time so he likely takes the Hart.

Nobody knows if he is winning the Seller or not, he has great advanced numbers and is league best +/-.
He is 4 points behind with two games in hand...he has as good a shot as MacK to win the Ross and that's while running away with the Richard.

Drai had 50 goals seasons when nobody had 60 goals...60 goals popped up only a few years back...he has the second most 50g seasons only behind Ovi and he is on pace to get 60 this year.

And Drai won his Hart in 71 games with 110 points, how is this not better than Malkin 75 games with 109 points...at minimum it's equal, and the second best scorers in each year had 97, so it's easy to compare.
So every point you made is not plausible, it's even closer to vice versa.

It's hard to compare those years, I still think prime is easily Drais and peak it's close between them.
And Drais numbers with McD not even in the lineup are also great... everybody is ignoring this and he has done it now over a six year span and not only in half a year.

 

[daver]

Nobody knows if he is winning the Seller or not, he has great advanced numbers and is league best +/-.
He is 4 points behind with two games in hand...he has as good a shot as MacK to win the Ross and that's while running away with the Richard.

He is not winning the Selke; like Malkin, he needs to show he is not liability on defense, which is all you can ask for a player who is relied on so much offensively, rather than confirm is a great defensive forward.

Kucherov is pacing for the Ross but, again, the doesn't change the fact that 120 points is not that impressive to begin with.

The Richard contenders this year are clearly the weakest in the past four years. There may be only two players at above 0.60 vs. an average of 6 from '22 to '24.