Pavel Datsyuk inducted into the Hall of Fame

[Konnan511]

During Datsyuk , Zetterberg era , is any statistics how team perform without Datsyuk, compare Zetterberg, compare Lidstrom

Who is that?

Justin Holl. The only member of the Holl of Fame.

 

[norrisnick]

Jared Holl. The only member of the Holl of Fame.

Who is that?

 

[Bench]

Who is that?

The Berenstein Bears universe Holl.

 

[lilidk]

Who is that?

I didn't know he is Red Wing

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

Yeah, Datsyuk fans get carried away by the legend. He wasn't even the best player on his team, let alone league. Lidstrom being what he was and all. That isn't taking anything away from Datsyuk, it's just I'm tried of Wings fans not recognizing they had a top, maybe THE top (depending how you feel about different eras and Orr), all-time defender on the team.

Ummmmm, I don't know about you buddy, but I haven't found a Red Wing fan yet that didn't hold Nick Lidstrom in the highest regards. Maybe they are out there, but they hide pretty good.

 

[Bench]

Ummmmm, I don't know about you buddy, but I haven't found a Red Wing fan yet that didn't hold Nick Lidstrom in the highest regards. Maybe they are out there, but they hide pretty good.

You'd be surprised. I know I always am.

 

[Henkka]

Yeah, Datsyuk fans get carried away by the legend. He wasn't even the best player on his team, let alone league. Lidstrom being what he was and all. That isn't taking anything away from Datsyuk, it's just I'm tried of Wings fans not recognizing they had a top, maybe THE top (depending how you feel about different eras and Orr), all-time defender on the team.

It's interesting how Datsyuk's 3-year data didn't change almost at all, after Lidström retired. 2009-12 seasons vs. 2013-2015. He even produced sligtly better as an individual after Lidström retired. One-ice data did stay same.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

It's interesting how Datsyuk's 3-year data didn't change almost at all, after Lidström retired. 2009-12 seasons vs. 2013-2015. He even produced sligtly better as an individual after Lidström retired. One-ice data did stay same.

Due to lockout and injury Dats was playing between 40ish and 60ish games those last seasons.

Datsyuk was one of the most insanely creative and exciting players to watch on the ice. But there's this revisionist narrative that he would've put up as good or better numbers than Crosby if he weren't forced to backcheck. He simply wasn't that top tier of a player, but that doesn't mean he wasn't great and amazing to watch.

You'd be surprised. I know I always am.

I do think having Lidstrom on the blueline for 20 years has made a lot of Wings fans especially critical of defensemen because they're used to the top guy never making a mistake.

 

[lilidk]

13

 

[The Zermanator]

Due to lockout and injury Dats was playing between 40ish and 60ish games those last seasons.

Datsyuk was one of the most insanely creative and exciting players to watch on the ice. But there's this revisionist narrative that he would've put up as good or better numbers than Crosby if he weren't forced to backcheck. He simply wasn't that top tier of a player, but that doesn't mean he wasn't great and amazing to watch.

The only revisionist history happening are the ones downplaying how good he was.

Detroit Red Wings' Pavel Datsyuk is best player in NHL, according to poll of 250 players

Datsyuk finished No. 1 in six of 15 categories; only two other players were No. 1 in more than one.

www.mlive.com

Datsyuk was voted the smartest player with 45 percent of the vote, most difficult to play against with 26 percent, hardest to take the puck from with 47 percent, toughest forward to play against with 25 percent, cleanest player with 21 percent, and the most difficult to stop according to 24 percent of goalies.

Seems the people who were in the best position to judge his calibre as a player thought that highly of him...

His peak seasons he was a sliver under 100pts, and winning Selkes on top of it. Is it that far-fetched to think he couldn't add another 10+ points to that total over a season if he was solely focused on producing offense? He always had his mind on the defensive side of things which meant he didn't go for Hail Marys that would put the team in a bad spot defensively, that's worth some points over a season without a doubt. Focusing solely on offense might have hurt his =/- (and the team's record) in the process, but definitely would have added to the point totals.

People arguing that he was better than Crosby are a straw man, ie they don't exist. The fact that Ovechkin was overshadowed by Crosby and subsequently McDavid does not diminish his value or accomplishments as a player, and the same applies to Datsyuk. He is an all-time great, not just a 'flashy and creative' player. He is 100% in that 'top-tier'.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

The only revisionist history happening are the ones downplaying how good he was.

Detroit Red Wings' Pavel Datsyuk is best player in NHL, according to poll of 250 players

Datsyuk finished No. 1 in six of 15 categories; only two other players were No. 1 in more than one.

www.mlive.com

Seems the people who were in the best position to judge his calibre as a player thought that highly of him...

His peak seasons he was a sliver under 100pts, and winning Selkes on top of it. Is it that far-fetched to think he couldn't add another 10+ points to that total over a season if he was solely focused on producing offense? He always had his mind on the defensive side of things which meant he didn't go for Hail Marys that would put the team in a bad spot defensively, that's worth some points over a season without a doubt. Focusing solely on offense might have hurt his =/- (and the team's record) in the process, but definitely would have added to the point totals.

People arguing that he was better than Crosby are a straw man, ie they don't exist. The fact that Ovechkin was overshadowed by Crosby and subsequently McDavid does not diminish his value or accomplishments as a player, and the same applies to Datsyuk. He is an all-time great, not just a 'flashy and creative' player. He is 100% in that 'top-tier'.

I'm not downplaying how good he was. He was great, which I said in my post. You citing some player polls as an appeal to authority doesn't change that. Babcock was #3 among coaches players would most like to play for.

And the Crosby argument isn't a straw man. It's been made multiple times in threads involving Datsyuk on the main boards. There's a post in this very thread calling him best in the league for years but being held back by Babcock. And you're basically making that argument in your reply.

All I was saying is Datsyuk wasn't as good as Crosby. And it's not because he was forced to play defense. Even in the Wings forum that shouldn't be a super controversial statement. I love Dats, but he's not in the same tier as Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid.

 

[The Zermanator]

I'm not downplaying how good he was. He was great, which I said in my post. You citing some player polls as an appeal to authority doesn't change that. Babcock was #3 among coaches players would most like to play for.

And the Crosby argument isn't a straw man. It's been made multiple times in threads involving Datsyuk on the main boards. There's a post in this very thread calling him best in the league for years but being held back by Babcock. And you're basically making that argument in your reply.

All I was saying is Datsyuk wasn't as good as Crosby. And it's not because he was forced to play defense. Even in the Wings forum that shouldn't be a super controversial statement. I love Dats, but he's not in the same tier as Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid.

It's easy to dismiss something as an "appeal to authority" when it would dismantle your point to admit otherwise. Like I said, they actually played against him and all the other players of the time, they are in the best position to judge. It's like Walter Sobchak said, "you have no frame of reference, you're out of your element."

As for Babcock, the circumstances there are completely different for two reasons: 1) A large majority of players hadn't played for Babcock so were going entirely off reputation, unlike Datsyuk who they actually played against; and 2) That poll was taken before certain things had come to light about Babcock and his "personality". I imagine the poll would be different if taken afterwards. Nothing has occurred with Datsyuk since his playing days that would draw the perception of him into question, so that comparison doesn't work.

Are we really going to use individual opinions on HFBoards as a barometer? First time on here? You can find a crackpot opinion on any topic. If you think there's any kind of identifiable cohort pushing the idea that Datsyuk was better than Crosby, your perception is off. Besides, there's a difference between saying a player is better than another, and saying they were performing better for a limited period of time. Peak and career are two different things. Would it be unreasonable to say that Kucherov was a better player than McDavid in 2018/19, where he scored 128 points to McDavid's 116? Yet there is no reasonable argument to be made that Kucherov is better than McDavid in general. Same thing with Ovechkin, some players have been better goalscorers in individual seasons since he entered the league, but there is no better goalscorer over that span.

07/08 and 08/09 Datsyuk was a complete beast on every inch of the ice surface. Didn't put up as many points as Crosby, but sure as hell blew him out of the water on the defensive side of things. Would that make Datsyuk the more valuable player for that brief period of time? I'd say there's an argument to be made there. But clearly Crosby has had a significantly more successful and impactful career, he is without a doubt the better player and that is overwhelmingly the predominant opinion.

The goalposts are being moved here. Initially he was "exciting but not top-tier", and now it's "he wasn't as good as Crosby, Ovechkin, and McDavid". The former is just plain wrong, the latter is just plain obvious.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

It's easy to dismiss something as an "appeal to authority" when it would dismantle your point to admit otherwise. Like I said, they actually played against him and all the other players of the time, they are in the best position to judge. It's like Walter Sobchak said, "you have no frame of reference, you're out of your element."

As for Babcock, the circumstances there are completely different for two reasons: 1) A large majority of players hadn't played for Babcock so were going entirely off reputation, unlike Datsyuk who they actually played against; and 2) That poll was taken before certain things had come to light about Babcock and his "personality". I imagine the poll would be different if taken afterwards. Nothing has occurred with Datsyuk since his playing days that would draw the perception of him into question, so that comparison doesn't work.

Are we really going to use individual opinions on HFBoards as a barometer? First time on here? You can find a crackpot opinion on any topic. If you think there's any kind of identifiable cohort pushing the idea that Datsyuk was better than Crosby, your perception is off. Besides, there's a difference between saying a player is better than another, and saying they were performing better for a limited period of time. Peak and career are two different things. Would it be unreasonable to say that Kucherov was a better player than McDavid in 2018/19, where he scored 128 points to McDavid's 116? Yet there is no reasonable argument to be made that Kucherov is better than McDavid in general. Same thing with Ovechkin, some players have been better goalscorers in individual seasons since he entered the league, but there is no better goalscorer over that span.

07/08 and 08/09 Datsyuk was a complete beast on every inch of the ice surface. Didn't put up as many points as Crosby, but sure as hell blew him out of the water on the defensive side of things. Would that make Datsyuk the more valuable player for that brief period of time? I'd say there's an argument to be made there. But clearly Crosby has had a significantly more successful and impactful career, he is without a doubt the better player and that is overwhelmingly the predominant opinion.

The goalposts are being moved here. Initially he was "exciting but not top-tier", and now it's "he wasn't as good as Crosby, Ovechkin, and McDavid". The former is just plain wrong, the latter is just plain obvious.

There's no goalposts being moved here. It seems more like you're arguing against something I haven't said.

I said Datsyuk wasn't that top tier of a player as Crosby, but still was great. Yes there were a couple seasons where you could argue he was as good. That peak doesn't still doesn't put him in the top tier. And what is the top tier if not Crosby, McDavid and Ovechkin? If you have different definition of what constitutes "top tier" then maybe start the conversation there.

And now you're mad I'm referring to "crackpot opinions" on hfboards that you called a strawman? That was my point. Several people, Wings fans actually, have made that argument when defending Datsyuk. And again, you alluded to a very similar argument.

I know it's the offseason but I'm not really into having this argument you seem intent on having. Dats was great. Crosby is better. Whatever you're upset about, please direct it somewhere else.

 

[lilidk]

To me Datsyuk was in the third tier
Gretzky, Lemieux , Mcdavid

Crosby , Ovechkin , Howe , Orr .....

Lidstrom, Yzerman, Sakic, Malkin , Datsyuk, Fedorov, Thornton, Bourque, Stamkos, Sundin , McKinnon, Makar...........

 

[Sentinel]

To me Datsyuk was in the third tier
Gretzky, Lemieux , Mcdavid

Crosby , Ovechkin , Howe , Orr .....

Lidstrom, Yzerman, Sakic, Malkin , Datsyuk, Fedorov, Thornton, Bourque, Stamkos, Sundin , McKinnon, Makar...........

Stamkos, Sundin, and McKinnon do not belong in the same tier as the others.

 

[lilidk]

Stamkos, Sundin, and McKinnon do not belong in the same tier as the others.

Then move Stamkos and Sundin down

 

[TooFlashy]

Congrats Mr.flashy creative player