Player Discussion Pavel Buchnevich Part V

[DanielBrassard]

I'm sure you saw the stat I posted in the other thread.

I haven't, what was the stat?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I haven't, what was the stat?

Kreider and Zibanejad have scored more goals since the line change with Buchnevich on the ice than Fast.

Yes, the PP is part of hockey. Yes, there has been much less PP minutes than ES minutes. Yes, part of the perception around this line is from their PP production, of which Buchnevich is playing a part, not Fast, so I'd say its flawed logic to talk five games when Kreider and Zibanejad have clearly elevated their game, and use that as evidence that the line is doing better than when Buchnevich played on that line.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Kreider and Zibanejad have scored more goals since the line change with Buchnevich on the ice than Fast.

Yes, the PP is part of hockey. Yes, there has been much less PP minutes than ES minutes. Yes, part of the perception around this line is from their PP production, of which Buchnevich is playing a part, not Fast, so I'd say its flawed logic to talk five games when Kreider and Zibanejad have clearly elevated their game, and use that as evidence that the line is doing better than when Buchnevich played on that line.

If you are making a comparison between the KZB line and KZF line or any two lines, the only way to make a truly equivalent comparison would be to look at how they do at 5v5. Otherwise you are comparing across different game states, which are influenced by numerous other factors, and that just doesn't make much sense.If you want to say the KZF line hasn't been together long enough and we need to see more of them to make the case they are a better line than KZB, fine. But including PP statistics to make your point doesn't hold water to me.

 

[Harbour Dog]

Kreider and Zibanejad have scored more goals since the line change with Buchnevich on the ice than Fast.

Yes, the PP is part of hockey. Yes, there has been much less PP minutes than ES minutes. Yes, part of the perception around this line is from their PP production, of which Buchnevich is playing a part, not Fast, so I'd say its flawed logic to talk five games when Kreider and Zibanejad have clearly elevated their game, and use that as evidence that the line is doing better than when Buchnevich played on that line.

Dude, it's been five games and Kreider and Mika have been on fire. If any coach broke up a line that was clicking like that one, especially while using a bottom six guy on it, he would be ridiculed to no end.

You're creating this whole "Buch is being scapegoated" thing yourself.

And using some type of Powerplay +/- is a hell of stretch to try to frame an argument. Quickie created a SH breakaway for a primary assist last night, but does he not get any credit because Mika and Kredier were on the bench?

 

[RGY]

The kid has so much talent. His defensive game has slightly improved. But the focus this offseason for him needs to be on his strength. He gets knocked off the puck a little too easily for a guy of his size. He needs to get stronger imo. Its not a knock on him, but room for improvement. He has the ability to round his overall game out by simply being physically stronger.

 

[kovazub94]

Kreider and Zibanejad have scored more goals since the line change with Buchnevich on the ice than Fast.

Yes, the PP is part of hockey. Yes, there has been much less PP minutes than ES minutes. Yes, part of the perception around this line is from their PP production, of which Buchnevich is playing a part, not Fast, so I'd say its flawed logic to talk five games when Kreider and Zibanejad have clearly elevated their game, and use that as evidence that the line is doing better than when Buchnevich played on that line.

Your sense of timing is terrible. KZF is likely not a long term thing but calling for it to be broken up now is laughable and indicative of your PB crush above anything else.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

If you are making a comparison between the KZB line and KZF line or any two lines, the only way to make a truly equivalent comparison would be to look at how they do at 5v5. Otherwise you are comparing across different game states, which are influenced by numerous other factors, and that just doesn't make much sense.If you want to say the KZF line hasn't been together long enough and we need to see more of them to make the case they are a better line than KZB, fine. But including PP statistics to make your point doesn't hold water to me.

Thats not what I did, actually. It would be dumb to actually try to compare the lines, considering its five games, KZB has a distinguished track record, and its only logical a line would do better with a first liner than third liner, although some people actually are trying to do that, which makes little sense. I was only making the point that some of the arguments being put forth that this is somehow a new line combination that is better than KZB are incredibly deceiving, and leave out key info.

I explained in the post you responded to that part of the perception of this new GAG line comes from PP goals, of which Fast isn't on, and Buchnevich is, so the whole perception of this line is deceiving. Its mostly Kreider and Zibanejad having pucks finally go in.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You're creating this whole "Buch is being scapegoated" thing yourself.

On Jesper Fast moving to the top line, "that line, for two straight games, had no opportunities at all. Ever since I moved Quickie with Mika and Kreids they have been our best line 5 on 5, creating zone time, shot attempts, scoring chances. They have been matched up against some of the best lines in hockey and done a real good job for us. Anyone I put Quickie with, that line plays the right way and real hard. It's probably his work ethic and energy rubbing off on people. Mika and Kreids, they are probably playing some of their best hockey of the year right now. Hopefully it continues tomorrow."

What Alain Vigneault said after practice on Monday

I didn't create this, AV did. This is nothing new with him. He does this like every few weeks.

Its actually irrelevant what Fast does away from those players, just like its irrelevant that Buchnevich has more points than Fast in that stretch. Its not a comparison between these two players.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Your sense of timing is terrible. KZF is likely not a long term thing but calling for it to be broken up now is laughable and indicative of your PB crush above anything else.

When you can't win an argument, personally attack someone with a ridiculous narrative. And you should try actually understanding the arguments being made, instead of distorting them.

 

[kovazub94]

When you can't win an argument, personally attack someone with a ridiculous narrative. And you should try actually understanding the arguments being made, instead of distorting them.

Where’s personal insult? Just telling you how it looks from the outside - giving a perspective that is different from your own. Up to you to disregard it as personal attack if you wish.

This thing here started by you advocating that Buch should be put right next to KZ, no? I said your timing is terrible.

BTW Don’t care about “winning” an argument around here. A little back and forth is ok but I’d sooner leave it than waste time trying to proof a point. Adios.

 

[Harbour Dog]

What Alain Vigneault said after practice on Monday

I didn't create this, AV did. This is nothing new with him. He does this like every few weeks.

Its actually irrelevant what Fast does away from those players, just like its irrelevant that Buchnevich has more points than Fast in that stretch. Its not a comparison between these two players.

Praising Fast with results to back up the comments is not a slight to Buch. Odds are that the start of next season at the latest we'll be seeing KZB again, and hopefully they'll stay healthy and be productive.

In the meantime, I would prefer to discuss how versatile and underrated Quickie is, instead of debate whether our coach has some deep-seated hatred for our budding first line playmaker.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Thats not what I did, actually. It would be dumb to actually try to compare the lines, considering its five games, KZB has a distinguished track record, and its only logical a line would do better with a first liner than third liner, although some people actually are trying to do that, which makes little sense. I was only making the point that some of the arguments being put forth that this is somehow a new line combination that is better than KZB are incredibly deceiving, and leave out key info.

I explained in the post you responded to that part of the perception of this new GAG line comes from PP goals, of which Fast isn't on, and Buchnevich is, so the whole perception of this line is deceiving. Its mostly Kreider and Zibanejad having pucks finally go in.

I don't think that's the case at all, seems like most people who are talking about the success of the KZF line are referring to their dominating play at 5v5, not about how Kreider and Zibanejad are tearing it up on the PP. It is possible to differentiate the two situations, no? People like Machinehead, myself, and others who have commented on the success of the line are strictly referring to their 5v5 production, it has zero to do with the success of Kreider and Zibanejad on the PP, seems more like something you are projecting onto others. Even AV the terrible in the quote you posted is specifically mentioning their effectiveness at 5v5. As far as the KZB line's track record, they haven't even played 300 minutes together as a line in almost 2 seasons, lets not kid ourselves about some sort of track record like we have seen from other top lines around the league. Also, there are plenty of lines that do better with a certain mix of players. Just because Fast isn't as good as Buch doesn't mean he can't be a very effective 3rd wheel on that line, it would be ridiculous to deny that. This all isn't to say that the KZF line will definitely be the better combination over the long haul, we need to wait and see.

 

[Larrybiv]

We will have two skilled centers coming up soon. It will be interesting to see how AV will incorporate them and, specifically, whether he’d put one of them with Buch.

I don't understand how a winger can be a "pass 1st" type player. Seriously. When I was growing up and learning the game......centers were the players that were best for "playmaking" with 2 options on both wings. If you are a left or right winger you have the same 2 players but are limited being you're so far away from the extreme wing. (Not counting dmen as options, for the sake of argument). Anyway, my point is .......shouldn't they be "geared" for shooting 1st.......as opposed to passing? Is it because they dont have a good shot? Well then, maybe they shouldve been a center (lol)

It's simple, you have a good shot, play wing.
You have a "less than" shot and good passing abilities, then play center and be good at FO's.

 

[Larrybiv]

Or just keep the line that is absolutely on fire together for now until they cool off. It's a team, it's not all about Buch. Part of being a top NHL player is being able to play with a range of guys. Like I said, I'd like to see him with Hayes and Vlad and have him focus on being the shooter on his line.

That's really a good idea. Kind of forces him to be that shooter. Has to be a "game plan" though, be made aware that is what they're looking to do. Otherwise you have these good passes and no one pulling the trigger.

That's what I loved about the G.A.G. line. Everyone had their specific role. Jean did everything from Center, Hadfield would be our modern day Kreids and collect the garbage and Rod was our sniper. Nice, those were the days.

 

[Larrybiv]

Kreider and Zibanejad have scored more goals since the line change with Buchnevich on the ice than Fast.

Yes, the PP is part of hockey. Yes, there has been much less PP minutes than ES minutes. Yes, part of the perception around this line is from their PP production, of which Buchnevich is playing a part, not Fast, so I'd say its flawed logic to talk five games when Kreider and Zibanejad have clearly elevated their game, and use that as evidence that the line is doing better than when Buchnevich played on that line.

I may be wrong but that might be simply because the puck isn't dying on Fast's stick the way it sometimes does with Buch. If you don't lose possession, then that multiplies the amount of chances Zib and Kreids can create? Jesper is much better at GETTING the puck and MOVING it to his better offensive linemates. He sometimes just "stays out of the way". Buch needs to re-create himself and become more of a "shoot 1st" type player and stop losing the damned puck!

 

[Larrybiv]

There are plenty of lines that do better with a certain mix of players. Just because Fast isn't as good as Buch doesn't mean he can't be a very effective 3rd wheel on that line, it would be ridiculous to deny that. This all isn't to say that the KZF line will definitely be the better combination over the long haul, we need to wait and see.

That "3rd wheel" is exactly that. Not one of the main participants in the "matching up" of 2 players that play well together, but NOT on the outside and looking in (so to speak) That so called 3rd wheel, is actually the "glue" that initiates and blends in very well with the other 2, that are supposedly driving the play and obviously more talented. The "skill set" of Jesper and what he does so well is more comprised of the "grinding and mucking", causing turnovers and retrieving pucks for offensive chances. IMO, Buch doesn't even compare to Jesper, which is why this is working out well thus far. Doesn't mean he is "better than" Buch, but means the line is more cohesive with Jesper over Buch.......okay, point made and rant is officially over. Lol

 

[eco's bones]

Zibanejad and Kreider look to be playing a lot better the last few games. Fast gives the line a bit of a defensive conscience. I don't mind it. None of KZB are any great shakes playing defense. I'd hesitate to call any of them legit 1st liners though the last few games Chris and Mika have kind of looked the part. The numbers aren't really there yet and comparing them to the GAG line is a joke--you're talking a threesome who were putting up at least 25-40 goals each a year and in 71-72 between them there was about 140 goals or more than our combined group of forwards has now. That year they were like the 2 goal a game line. I was a Rangers fan way back then so I know.

As well it's not unusual for coaches to spread the offense around into different line combinations. Look at Pittsburgh--Crosby on one line, Malkin on another and Kessel on a third. Buchnevich has been playing with good players---they just haven't found any chemistry. He's also getting power play time. Second on the team in power play points. I agree with RGY he gets knocked around and off his feet too much. He still needs to get stronger. All in all there's been marked improvement from him this year--can't say that about too many others.

 

[kovazub94]

Zibanejad and Kreider look to be playing a lot better the last few games. Fast gives the line a bit of a defensive conscience. I don't mind it. None of KZB are any great shakes playing defense. I'd hesitate to call any of them legit 1st liners though the last few games Chris and Mika have kind of looked the part. The numbers aren't really there yet and comparing them to the GAG line is a joke--you're talking a threesome who were putting up at least 25-40 goals each a year and in 71-72 between them there was about 140 goals or more than our combined group of forwards has now. That year they were like the 2 goal a game line. I was a Rangers fan way back then so I know.

As well it's not unusual for coaches to spread the offense around into different line combinations. Look at Pittsburgh--Crosby on one line, Malkin on another and Kessel on a third. Buchnevich has been playing with good players---they just haven't found any chemistry. He's also getting power play time. Second on the team in power play points. I agree with RGY he gets knocked around and off his feet too much. He still needs to get stronger. All in all there's been marked improvement from him this year--can't say that about too many others.

Agree with every word. Not having chemistry with Names and Vesey is why I brought up a question re. how soon-to-be newcomers Chytil and Andersson will impact Buchnevich in terms of a new linemates. I wouldn’t mind if Buch is paired with at least one of them. Since KZF is a new hot thing that doesn’t make sense to mess with at this time, then there’s a good chance that at least one of them will play with Buchnevich.

 

[eco's bones]

Agree with every word. Not having chemistry with Names and Vesey is why I brought up a question re. how soon-to-be newcomers Chytil and Andersson will impact Buchnevich in terms of a new linemates. I wouldn’t mind if Buch is paired with at least one of them. Since KZF is a new hot thing that doesn’t make sense to mess with at this time, then there’s a good chance that at least one of them will play with Buchnevich.

If Andersson/Chytil do come up you want to give them a decent amount of ice time with good players. I could see Buchnevich playing with either.

 

[kovazub94]

If Andersson/Chytil do come up you want to give them a decent amount of ice time with good players. I could see Buchnevich playing with either.

KZF
Chytil-Hayes-Zuke
Spooner-Andersson-Buch
Vesey-Names-Carey

 

[TGWL]

I explained in the post you responded to that part of the perception of this new GAG line comes from PP goals, of which Fast isn't on, and Buchnevich is, so the whole perception of this line is deceiving. Its mostly Kreider and Zibanejad having pucks finally go in.

You don't think you're reaching here using PP production? I get that Buchnevich is an exciting player for you, but it's getting a little tiresome watching you be the PB justice defender. What about overall play?

AV is 100% right that Buchnevich looks lost at times and it has nothing to do with playing with shitty players. With more experience I see Buchnevich developing into a better all around player, especially under a new structure for our team game, but right now that top line is clicking. Will that line continue to work? I'm not sure. All good things come to an end. Until that happens, why change it?

 

[Nopuckluck]

This kid is the best prospect I’ve seen in the Rangers organization in forever. I can’t believe how noticeable and effective he is.

 

[haohmaru]

This kid is the best prospect I’ve seen in the Rangers organization in forever. I can’t believe how noticeable and effective he is.

I wish our coach was effective.

 

[kovazub94]

Not every source of Buch’s struggles lead to AV. Suggestion that Buchnevich is playing “scared “ as a post-concussion response is possible. Prior to injury I remember noting that Buchnevich’s success was due to his desire to make a play even though it caused putting himself in a way of physical harm. I don’t see this drive anymore. Buchnevich

 

[Thirty One]

Not every source of Buch’s struggles lead to AV. Suggestion that Buchnevich is playing “scared “ as a post-concussion response is possible. Prior to injury I remember noting that Buchnevich’s success was due to his desire to make a play even though it caused putting himself in a way of physical harm. I don’t see this drive anymore. Buchnevich

Another possible explanation is he's just a 22 year old whose play has gone through regulars ups and downs.