Paul Kariya doesn't remember 2003 SC-finals game 6 nor 7

[HanSolo]

What does your comment have to do with blindside?

Stevens shoulder hits him in the head, and his elbow is tucked into his chest. That isn't elbowing then or now.

Let's keep that mentality. We're sure to cut down on concussions with that mind set

 

[Bruinaura]

This. And of course he hit to hurt. What's the point of hitting otherwise?

The purpose of hitting is supposed to be to separate the player from the puck. Not to just injure a guy. Otherwise there would be no such thing as a late hit.

And having watched Stevens play in the 90s, my opinion is he often was looking to just take a guy out of the game if the opportunity presented itself. See Kariya, Paul and Lindros, Eric as prime examples.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Right, a player with 3,163 career penalty minutes (regular season + playoffs), who only took 2 minor penalties for elbowing in his entire career, was "known to use those elbows". What a joke.

Let them preach from their soapboxes, they clearly didn't watch hockey back then. Stevens was never known as a dirty player, he player tough and mean and within the rules at that time.

 

[King Mapes]

What does your comment have to do with blindside?

Stevens shoulder hits him in the head, and his elbow is tucked into his chest. That isn't elbowing then or now.

Shoulder hit him in the head? Which hit are you watching? It was his elbow. So yes it is elbowing.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Just because the NHL ignores it's on rules in the post season doesn't make it correct or acceptable. Stevens should have been tossed for it.

He shouldn't have been tossed by the rules of the day. It would have been a two minute minor interference penalty at most. It wasn't charging so it wouldn't have been a 5 minute major. By today's standards he would have been tossed for the head hit, but that wasn't a rule then.

 

[Blender]

Let's keep that mentality. We're sure to cut down on concussions with that mind set

That wasn't the argument. Please read the thread.

This was called a blindside hit, and it was further argued that Stevens was moving in a completely different path than Kariya. This was followed up by calling it an elbow. All of these statements are completely false.

The hit was late, but other than that it was well within the rules of the time. I never once argued that these hits should still be ok or that we shouldn't care about the health of the players. I in fact mentioned earlier that Kariya should have never touched the ice until he was healthy again, and that playing with a concussion makes things worse for him.

 

[NJDevilsFan21]

it doesn't matter if Stevens was even penalized. To show how far away from the play this was, the puck had even bounced off the boards before Stevens made contact.

but no penalty so it's cool, right?

Except that's not what happened - here's the puck when contact begins:

And for reference, here's the puck leaving his stick

Contact actually began within 1 second after the puck left his stick. But being right around 1 full second, that was considered borderline at the time.

People never watch the replays in real time.

 

[HanSolo]

Let them preach from their soapboxes, they clearly didn't watch hockey back then. Stevens was never known as a dirty player, he player tough and mean and within the rules at that time.

Keep generalizing. Stevens wasn't considered a dirty player because the culture of the time still normalized "broad street bully" like thuggery. He was a standard among a large group of peers who played the same way. That doesn't change the fact that a good number of his hits were reckless, careless, and-by his own admission-designed to take players out of the game.

 

[iamjs]

It's a lot different than Cooke on Savard. If you can't understand why hitting some square with your full body, but also connecting shoulder to head, is different than cutting across the front of someone and specifically targeting their head is different, I can't help you. This is a basic concept of hitting in hockey.

so you're still advocating it?

I'm not saying you can't make a big hit, but to make such a hit 1) that late and 2) in such a targeted fashion (which Stevens did quite a few times in his career), it's just irresponsible.

 

[Frank Drebin]

The purpose of hitting is supposed to be to separate the player from the puck. Not to just injure a guy. Otherwise there would be no such thing as a late hit.

And having watched Stevens play in the 90s, my opinion is he often was looking to just take a guy out of the game if the opportunity presented itself. See Kariya, Paul and Lindros, Eric as prime examples.

Yes and he has three cups to his name. You think lindros didn't hit to hurt? Go look up his hit on dackell.

I'm not advocating for these hits to come back, but they were part of the game back then.

 

[King Mapes]

Late? Probably. Elbow? Get your eyes checked.

Maybe watch a different video because you clearly have a difficult time seeing it on here. It was most definitely his elbow.

 

[ManofSteel55]

I think you need to watch it again. Hits him with his elbow. He's the dirtiest player to ever play.

His elbow clearly didn't come up until after the contact was made. That was the upper arm/shoulder area. It's this type of play that made the NHL change to "head contact" as the standard though, as it being shoulder, head, mid arm, or anywhere else on the body would still have hurt Kariya badly. Doesn't change the fact that it wasn't an elbowing penalty at the time. Could have been roughing or interference though.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Keep generalizing. Stevens wasn't considered a dirty player because the culture of the time still normalized "broad street bully" like thuggery. He was a standard among a large group of peers who played the same way. That doesn't change the fact that a good number of his hits were reckless, careless, and-by his own admission-designed to take players out of the game.

So how can a player who plays within the rules be considered dirty?

Blame the NHL, not Stevens just because he was effective.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Maybe watch a different video because you clearly have a difficult time seeing it on here. It was most definitely his elbow.

You're imagining things. Christ.

 

[King Mapes]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj2URP8wJlU

Fast forward to 2:10.

 

[Frank Drebin]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj2URP8wJlU

Fast forward to 2:10.

Out of your mind.

 

[Blender]

so you're still advocating it?

I'm not saying you can't make a big hit, but to make such a hit 1) that late and 2) in such a targeted fashion (which Stevens did quite a few times in his career), it's just irresponsible.

All shoulders to heads are not penalties, even today. Comparing any Stevens hit to a Cooke hit is a joke.

Maybe watch a different video because you clearly have a difficult time seeing it on here. It was most definitely his elbow.

Stevens shoulder connects with Kariya's head. His elbow is tucked in and contacting Kariya's chest. Stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[al secord]

Back...and to the left. Back....and to the left.

 

[HanSolo]

That wasn't the argument. Please read the thread.

This was called a blindside hit, and it was further argued that Stevens was moving in a completely different path than Kariya. This was followed up by calling it an elbow. All of these statements are completely false.

The hit was late, but other than that it was well within the rules of the time. I never once argued that these hits should still be ok or that we shouldn't care about the health of the players. I in fact mentioned earlier that Kariya should have never touched the ice until he was healthy again, and that playing with a concussion makes things worse for him.

I can get behind it not being an elbow but I don't think direct perpendicularity is a requisite for a blindside hit.

Stevens isn't blind. Kariya got rid of the puck and was not looking in his direction at any point. Let's make a hypothetical and say Kariya didn't admire his pass but he turned his attention to Brodeur in driving to the net to make a play. He still wouldn't have seen Stevens. It's an unexpected hit from a side that most players don't get hit from. And moreover, Stevens clearly didn't throw the hit to remove the puck from Kariya. Kariya wasn't in a good position to try to sidestep a defender towards the net, a pass was pretty clearly imminent. Stevens didn't care about that. He wanted to put Kariya into the ice.

Even if it wasn't a blindside, and even if it was within the NHL's moronic rules at the time, it was a significantly reckless play. It was a bad play for Stevens plain and simple. And no. I didn't say you're advocating the continuance of the culture of headshots. But the willingness for people to jump to the defense of players they like after dangerous hits fosters the kind of excuses that protect players who harm other players significantly and recklessly and slows progress towards player safety. Not that I think we're so influential towards the DOPS that what we say matters but I think the language needs to change. Instead of focusing on what can be said to excuse our favorite players who do dangerous things, we should be focusing on what our favorite players can do to be physical in a way that doesn't significantly harm others.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Keep generalizing. Stevens wasn't considered a dirty player because the culture of the time still normalized "broad street bully" like thuggery. He was a standard among a large group of peers who played the same way. That doesn't change the fact that a good number of his hits were reckless, careless, and-by his own admission-designed to take players out of the game.

There was a huge difference between what Stevens did and the broad street bully's did in the late 70's, stop exaggerating, it doesn't help your cause.

His hits were designed to take players out of the game. I think by that admission alone it is hard to suggest that they were reckless or careless. Those terms imply that he played an uncontrolled style that led to these situations. It wasn't. He meant to do it, and by the rules of the day that was allowed. And by the culture of the day, it was praised. And most importantly, it helped his team win while not breaking any major rules of the time. You can't use what we know today about concussions to roast what was going on 20 or 30 years ago. It sucks that guys like Kariya had their lives changed from huge hits, but little was know about concussions at that time. There was little research done on that area until after these incidents. We knew concussions were bad. We didn't know how to treat them or prevent further ones. I do think it is b.s. that guys were put back in while concussed though. We know for a fact that that happened regularly, and we knew that multiple concussions were bad even back in the 90's. But I don't think blaming the guys throwing hits is the right path.

 

[Bruinaura]

Yes and he has three cups to his name. You think lindros didn't hit to hurt? Go look up his hit on dackell.

I'm not advocating for these hits to come back, but they were part of the game back then.

Three cups were not won because Scott Stevens put guys out of the game. Seems like some dude named Brodeur, among others, may have been a contributing factor. And I never said Lindros was an angel either.

Regardless of the name, headhunting doesn't belong in the game. I think we agree on that.

But back to Kariya, I still can't fathom how he was able to walk, much less skate after that hit.

 

[ManofSteel55]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj2URP8wJlU

Fast forward to 2:10.

I did. Primary contact was the shoulder. Elbow came up on the follow through.

 

[King Mapes]

All shoulders to heads are not penalties, even today. Comparing any Stevens hit to a Cooke hit is a joke.

Stevens shoulder connects with Kariya's head. His elbow is tucked in and contacting Kariya's chest. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Because Stevens isn't known to do that right? Even the announcer said it was.

 

[HanSolo]

So how can a player who plays within the rules be considered dirty?

Blame the NHL, not Stevens just because he was effective.

The laws of the United States allowed plantation owners to own and horrifically mistreat slaves. Should their despicable behavior be excused because they were following the law of the land?

Before you jump on me for invoking such horrible behavior, I'm not equating the two. But the principle is the same. Getting to do bad things cause the rules don't stop you from doing it doesn't magically make the act okay. Or clean.

 

[King Mapes]

I did. Primary contact was the shoulder. Elbow came up on the follow through.

Perhaps. It was very close though and borderline late. Back then it was 2-3 seconds (I think) after a pass. Today? Stevens would always be suspended. But they cared little about player safety back then.