Patriots/NFL Patriots fire Jerod Mayo after dismal 4-13 season

[Smitty93]

I want Vrabel so much more than Ben Johnson.

Ben Johnson has Adam Gase written all over him to me. When he doesn’t have the best offensive line of the last 20 years on his new team I just don’t think it’s going to look the same.

Give me the guy who has already proven he can build a shitty team into a contender as a head coach.

I think Gase and Johnson are much different. Gase's hype was built off Manning, who was basically running the Broncos offense, followed by a mediocre year in Chicago before the Dolphins hired him. The Broncos offense improved when he was promoted to OC, but it was already great.

With Johnson, he took over one of the worst offenses in the league, with largely the same personnel (a couple of linemen were injured for part 2021 and fully healthy in 2022), and turned them into one of the best units in the league. He took Goff, who we know is very much a product of coaching from his time with McVay, from a below average QB to, statistically, one of the 5 best QBs the past 3 years. That Lions offense has also been consistently great every year. What he's done is significantly more impressive than anything Gase did.

 

[CDJ]

 

[GordonHowe]

The Krafts wanted to "take their organization back".

Now the best thing they can do is hand the keys to a Vrabel and gtfo of the way and let him run the program.

I follow the NFL in general and the Patriots in particular only peripherally these days.

But my understanding is that neither Robert nor Jonathan Kraft are likely to take your senisble advice.

The impression left by some in local sports media is that JK is something of a weenie. Sharp elbows wielded by a spoiled and ego driven 800 pound gorilla.

True?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I think Gase and Johnson are much different. Gase's hype was built off Manning, who was basically running the Broncos offense, followed by a mediocre year in Chicago before the Dolphins hired him. The Broncos offense improved when he was promoted to OC, but it was already great.

With Johnson, he took over one of the worst offenses in the league, with largely the same personnel (a couple of linemen were injured for part 2021 and fully healthy in 2022), and turned them into one of the best units in the league. He took Goff, who we know is very much a product of coaching from his time with McVay, from a below average QB to, statistically, one of the 5 best QBs the past 3 years. That Lions offense has also been consistently great every year. What he's done is significantly more impressive than anything Gase did.

Pass on Johnson, feels too much like he'll be a McDaniels type of HC. Great OC and perfect guy to implement the system but Campbell is the brains

 

[Johnnyduke]

Pass on Johnson, feels too much like he'll be a McDaniels type of HC. Great OC and perfect guy to implement the system but Campbell is the brains

Dan Campbell is the what? Did you say he's the brains of the operation?

 

[smithformeragent]

I follow the NFL in general and the Patriots in particular only peripherally these days.

But my understanding is that neither Robert nor Jonathan Kraft are likely to take your senisble advice.

The impression left by some in local sports media is that JK is something of a weenie. Sharp elbows wielded by a spoiled and ego driven 800 pound gorilla.

True?

Based on the books I’ve read, this checks out.

 

[RoccoF14]

Dan Campbell is the what? Did you say he's the brains of the operation?

Dan Campbell is not an Xs and Os guy. His role is to establish a team culture, get buy-in from the players, and establish a team identity. He's done that in spades. He's got coordinators that he trusts, and more importantly, the players trust. He's got the confidence to delegate the responsibility to each of them, let them do their thing and they've come through. To me, that's what an NFL head coach SHOULD be doing, and that's what I think the Patriots need. Vrabel fits that bill. He's not an Xs & Os guy either. Same goes for both Harbaughs and Tomlin.

There are Head Coaches who also call plays. I've seen that work very well too, but only because they also got the team culture part established as well (Reed, McVeigh, LaFleur, O'Connel). I just think its tougher for new Head Coaches to jump right in and do both jobs effectively. That's one of the reasons why McDaniels has failed in every opportunity he's had.

Ben Johnson strikes me as a Mike McDaniel type of coach. Very innovative play caller, but the culture and team identity of the Dolphins is dogshit. Not sure if I'm wild about that. He'll get a shot somewhere and he may prove me wrong. But that's the impression I get.

 

[Smitty93]

Pass on Johnson, feels too much like he'll be a McDaniels type of HC. Great OC and perfect guy to implement the system but Campbell is the brains

Campbell has the culture down pat, but I don't think he's viewed as some football genius. He's there because of excellent leadership skills, not because of what he can do with the X's & O's.

I don't know if you have a subscription to The Athletic, but take a look at these articles. This is all I needed to know to want Ben Johnson here.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4640839/2023/06/28/lions-jared-goff-ben-johnson/

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4950089/2023/10/14/ben-johnson-lions-run-game/

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Campbell has the culture down pat, but I don't think he's viewed as some football genius. He's there because of excellent leadership skills, not because of what he can do with the X's & O's.

I don't know if you have a subscription to The Athletic, but take a look at these articles. This is all I needed to know to want Ben Johnson here.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4640839/2023/06/28/lions-jared-goff-ben-johnson/

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4950089/2023/10/14/ben-johnson-lions-run-game/

That's my point though. Xs and Os savant doesn't equal good HC. Belichick was hands off on the offense when McDaniels was here.

 

[GordonHowe]

Based on the books I’ve read, this checks out.

Any dime store analysis?

 

[smithformeragent]

Any dime store analysis?

https://nesn.com/2024/01/bill-belichick-reportedly-felt-this-way-about-patriots-president-jonathan-kraft/amp/

 

[StreetHawk]

Dan Campbell is not an Xs and Os guy. His role is to establish a team culture, get buy-in from the players, and establish a team identity. He's done that in spades. He's got coordinators that he trusts, and more importantly, the players trust. He's got the confidence to delegate the responsibility to each of them, let them do their thing and they've come through. To me, that's what an NFL head coach SHOULD be doing, and that's what I think the Patriots need. Vrabel fits that bill. He's not an Xs & Os guy either. Same goes for both Harbaughs and Tomlin.

There are Head Coaches who also call plays. I've seen that work very well too, but only because they also got the team culture part established as well (Reed, McVeigh, LaFleur, O'Connel). I just think its tougher for new Head Coaches to jump right in and do both jobs effectively. That's one of the reasons why McDaniels has failed in every opportunity he's had.

Ben Johnson strikes me as a Mike McDaniel type of coach. Very innovative play caller, but the culture and team identity of the Dolphins is dogshit. Not sure if I'm wild about that. He'll get a shot somewhere and he may prove me wrong. But that's the impression I get.

So, much more for a HC to do when compared to a DC/OC role. Can you hire someone on the side of the ball that you don't coach and trust them to run it? Like Reid did for many years with Jim Johnson in Philly and now Spags in KC? I would think a new rookie HC needs a GM that can take a lot of the pressure off him. Main thing is to figure out which kinds of players he wants and go and acquire them. Leave the cap stuff to specialists. Just need to know from HC how many years they think the player has in them so that they can structure the deal to get out of it by that time or redo the contract if the player is still going strong.

 

[GordonHowe]

https://nesn.com/2024/01/bill-belichick-reportedly-felt-this-way-about-patriots-president-jonathan-kraft/amp/

Well, we all know Bill isn't a sweetheart either.

 

[UncleRico]

I would personally much rather Ben Johnson over Vrabel, but it’s very clear it’s going to be Vrabel.

 

[GordonHowe]

I would personally much rather Ben Johnson over Vrabel, but it’s very clear it’s going to be Vrabel.

Why Johnson?

Curious.

 

[Dreghorn2]

You're overthinking it if Johnson isn't your guy.

He's the hottest property in the NFL at the moment for a reason. There's never any guarantees but offense still rules the day in the NFL.

Two math degrees and a CS degree. He'll figure head coaching out.

 

[RoccoF14]

You're overthinking it if Johnson isn't your guy.

He's the hottest property in the NFL at the moment for a reason. There's never any guarantees but offense still rules the day in the NFL.

Two math degrees and a CS degree. He'll figure head coaching out.

He’s absolutely the higher risk, higher reward choice.

 

[LouJersey]

Has zero to do with Wolf and 100% to do with Drake Maye

 

[Tommy Tubs]

There are Head Coaches who also call plays. I've seen that work very well too, but only because they also got the team culture part established as well (Reed, McVeigh, LaFleur, O'Connel).

How the hell was "LaFleur" the only one of those you spelled correctly?

 

[RoccoF14]

How the hell was "LaFleur" the only one of those you spelled correctly?

Probably because Guy LaFleur still inhabits my nightmares…..even after 45yrs.

 

[CDJ]

Has zero to do with Wolf and 100% to do with Drake Maye

Agreed, that would be a much bigger factor imo. Apparently there is some connection between Wolf’s dad and Johnson’s mentor or something though

 

[HustleB]

I would personally much rather Ben Johnson over Vrabel, but it’s very clear it’s going to be Vrabel.

I also prefer Johnson. Either way, I want the coach to bring his own Personell guy and it does not seem that is the path we are taking.

I'm a huge skeptic of Elliot. However to be fair, it is hard to judge him on FA since I believe his hands were tied by ownership on spending. It's also tough to judge the draft picks, but getting zero return on the entire draft outside of Maye was beyond concerning.

 

[UncleRico]

Why Johnson?

Curious.

I want an offensively minded HC that can work with Maye for years to come.

I’m sick of the yearly hiring and firing of OCs. I don’t think this continued path is a good one to develop a young QB like Maye.

I would be ok with Mcdaniels as OC if Vrabel were HC maybe since he probably can’t find a HC job.

Titans pass game under Vrabel was non-existent and I don’t trust him to find an OC.

Overall Maye is our best player. I want to build around him and the best way to do that is get a HC with him that can stick with him long term if all goes well.

Vrabel got fired from his last job for sinking the ship just as fast as they grew it. His inability to work with the GM got him fired. He also interviews with the Carolina panthers and Atlanta falcons last year and neither were impressed enough to hire him. I think there’s a reason for that.

 

[CDJ]

The biggest gripe people have towards Wolf is the offensive line, and yeah the construction of that was pretty pitiful and indefensible. Now Andrews going down hurt big time, as did Strange taking forever to return…but their big vet signing was a guy who put up the worst game I’ve ever seen, was pulled after a few drives, and then quit football. They needed to add at least a Jonah Williams or something in FA and didn’t. Hopefully they learned their lesson

 

[GatorMike]

Two math degrees and a CS degree. He'll figure head coaching out.

Wasn't Matt Patricia literally a rocket scientist?