Player Discussion Patrik Laine: ruining the tank

[Marioesque]

Looks like he didn't play with Scheifele many games until his last season.

2016-17: around 370 minutes together (Est. 19 games)

2017-18: 0 minutes together (got 44 goals here!)

2018-19: 195 minutes with Scheifele (est 10 games)

2019-20: almost 700 minutes with Scheifele (only 28 goals) (Est 35 games)

That last season is where Wheeler played way less with Scheifele, I imagine that this is when he was making things hard on Laine hence the trade?

(data from Moneypuck so possibly not that accurate as I dont they dont line combos that played less than a certain amount of minutes, so he likely played even more with Scheifele)

Going by memory here but Laine started with Scheifele and Ehlers and Wheeler was centering 2nd line until Little returned from injury.

In that short time, they had the highest GF/GA average in the league especially from December to February, Laine was beating McDavid (and Marchand was high up there) until Little returned and Wheeler took the 1st line wing from Laine.

Laine was running away with Calder. If Jets had not moved him to second line with Little and if he didn't get concussed, he would have opened with a 50+ goal season.

 

[Marioesque]

That is a ridiculous comment.

If by "subjective", you are referring to dishonest actors on either side of an argument using "compete level" to support their argument irrespective of actual evidence then yes it is meaningless in those scenarios which are common among tribally charged sports fans.

Are you going to claim that an assertion that Gallagher has a higher compete level than Drouin is a meaningless statement and is simply just a part of one's imagination. Of course not, that would be ludicrous as even though "compete level" is subjective, it is defined by objective analysis that may not result in an empirical fact that is defined by a quantitative measure but is still easily recognizable as a universal truth.

Attempts to render arguments meaningless with semantics and targeting specific subjective terms for removal from the lexicon in order to forward a competing subjective narrative is an old charlatan tactic that should always be called out.

Subjective meaning that it's not measurable but something that you decide for yourself, not objective.

The entire mental problem Laine had is that he has such high expectations on him winning, that he got unpleasant when he couldn't help team win. He's extremely competitive. How do you see Svechnikov being more competitive?

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Subjective meaning that it's not measurable but something that you decide for yourself, not objective.

The entire mental problem Laine had is that he has such high expectations on him winning, that he got unpleasant when he couldn't help team win. He's extremely competitive. How do you see Svechnikov being more competitive?

I am aware of what subjective meaning implies but there are levels of subjectivity and you are dismissing a viewpoint despite the fact the such things can be universally agreed upon as being objectively influenced. If you believe that "compete level" is purely subjective and meaningless then you are asserting that Drouin and Gallagher should be treated as equals in this regard when being compared....this is an objectively false narrative due to the fact that the aggregate subjective opinion of professional analysts is overwhelmingly on one side of the debate and that is my point. You can call something meaningless when the question itself is subjective and the opinion of experts reinforces such an assertion. That is not the case in any scenario questioning Laine's previous compete level even by his own admission.

 

[Marioesque]

I am aware of what subjective meaning implies but there are levels of subjectivity and you are dismissing a viewpoint despite the fact the such things can be universally agreed upon as being objectively influenced. If you believe that "compete level" is purely subjective and meaningless then you are asserting that Drouin and Gallagher should be treated as equals in this regard when being compared....this is an objectively false narrative due to the fact that the aggregate subjective opinion of professional analysts is overwhelmingly on one side of the debate and that is my point. You can call something meaningless when the question itself is subjective and the opinion of experts reinforces such an assertion. That is not the case in any scenario questioning Laine's previous compete level even by his own admission.

I'm sorry, I can't evaluate Drouin/Gallagher because I've mostly seen Drouin in Avs lately and haven't watched Gallagher enough.

However I have watched Laine since he was 16 and I have absolutely no questions about him being extremely competitive. If you're arguing he isn't, I'd like to hear what makes you think so because it's opposite to what my eyes have witnessed.

 

[Guess]

Is that only ES or is PP also in there? Could be they played together mostly on the PP.

Good question, I think 5 on 5 since it's showing 3 player line combinations

 

[Guess]

This is the first locker room where Laine doesn't come to a culture where there is like veteran leadership group that might shun the "outsider". It definitely happened in Jets, Laine threatened Wheeler's position immediately being better than him, and he was knocked down a peg and then some. There were some older voices in the CBJ locker room not happy with the "retooling" as Jarmo put it, getting rid of the old core and bringing in new blood. They did not like the new direction and were moved.

This core in MTL are guys who have actually looked up to Laine, he's senior to them. Like that cool college kid all the highschool kids knew. And there's no older core guy fighting for the same spot to create animosity. Shouldn't be much of an issue.

Perreault is the best to speak about Laine. Best line Laine has played in was Laine-Scheifele-Perreault, if there is someone like Perreault in current habs then for the love of god put him in the same line as Patty (also for this reason, he should play with Lehkonen and Barky in team Finland).

Someone who can win pucks behind the net and in corners, and has enough sense to make passes to Laine. That's the recipe. Make room for him to shoot and get him the puck. Can't fail.

Slafkovsky would be ideal for that, but we need him for Caufield and Suzuki since neither of them are great on the forecheck.

Not sure how great Demidov will be at that, Dach is good on the forecheck but I don't know how often he'd be the F1 as a center.

 

[Jaynki]

But at the end you balance and counter balance what you like of Svechnikov and Laine despite the high ceiling of Laine, a wise GM would pick Svechnikov over Laine. You could agree or disagree but it could go that way.

Both can be true.

Any GM would pick Svechnikov.

Laine high are higher.

To me a high should last a season. Laine's career high is 70 points and Svechnikov's career high is 69 points. I don't understand why a sample sized high means anything if it can't translate to any sizeable production difference in the end. Jonathan Drouin is also a purely talented player, it didn't mean anything when compared to others who were "less talented". I was mostly referring to the initial post of Laine>Svechnikov to which you said "ainec".

I mean Svechnikov is definitely a better skater. He's one of the best in the league for forwards. Not the Laine sucks at it, but Svech is undoubtedly better,

I'd actually say we got paid for taking on Laine.

Lets agree on two things. (If you agree on the 1st point first and foremost.)

"Peak" Laine is higher than "Peak" Svechnikov.

Svechnikov overall is a better player and as of today, probably every gm in the league would choose him above Laine.

 

[Laine5GoalGame]

Reporting for duty.

Hopes are finally up after the CBJ saga.

 

[Guess]

Reporting for duty.

Hopes are finally up after the CBJ saga.

We welcome any CBJ and WPG fans here to witness Laine's ascension to star status!

 

[malcb33]

Svechnikov overall is a better player and as of today, probably every gm in the league would choose him above Laine.

While this is likely true (I mean we traded PL+ 2nd for Harris), it doesn't mean it can't change going forward. Laine has the skills and ability, he just needs the right situation and supports in place to make it happen IMO.

 

[sampollock]

We welcome any CBJ and WPG fans here to witness Laine's ascension to star status!

Love it
KH, I applaud you

 

[Bobby Holik agent]

Reporting for duty.

Hopes are finally up after the CBJ saga.

Holyshit those finland dude don't mess around with username

 

[Marioesque]

"Peak" Laine is higher than "Peak" Svechnikov.

That's what it comes down to.

Svechnikov could tease 45 goals at peak.

Laine has a much higher upside.

He is the 4th fastest to 100 goals in NHL history, and he achieved it with injuries (major concussion) and mainly 2nd or 3rd line usage.

These things are not the same. The comparison doesn't favor Svechnikov, although I think he's a great player too. He has very good potential, Laine has generational potential.

 

[Jaynki]

While this is likely true (I mean we traded PL+ 2nd for Harris), it doesn't mean it can't change going forward. Laine has the skills and ability, he just needs the right situation and supports in place to make it happen IMO.

100% agree

That's what it comes down to.

Svechnikov could tease 45 goals at peak.

Laine has a much higher upside.

He is the 4th fastest to 100 goals in NHL history, and he achieved it with injuries (major concussion) and mainly 2nd or 3rd line usage.

These things are not the same. The comparison doesn't favor Svechnikov, although I think he's a great player too. He has very good potential, Laine has generational potential.

Agree but Laine has some major concerns that Svech don't

 

[Jack Skellington]

Is Laine top 5 in pure shooting all time? I honestly think he might be. Watched all his highlights when we got him and I think like 95% of his goals are pure snipes. Never seen a ratio so heavy.

 

[Conflicted Habs fan]

Watched a video of Laine scoring goals non stop. Pretty exciting stuff. His wrist shots are just like slap shots but only straight and where he wants them to be, snipes the corner post and its in. Goalies didn't have time to even turn their heads. Looking forward to see what he does in a Habs uniform

 

[calder candidate]

From the highlights I've seen, not really. He's just able to walk people and protect the puck to gain the zone at a steady pace because he's so dangerous if he has any room to shoot in the zone. I think part of his training with NFL players might be for explosiveness. He's not slow, but I wouldn't call him a fast player.

It is hard for big player to look quick but he is a lot fast than he looks.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

I'm sorry, I can't evaluate Drouin/Gallagher because I've mostly seen Drouin in Avs lately and haven't watched Gallagher enough.

However I have watched Laine since he was 16 and I have absolutely no questions about him being extremely competitive. If you're arguing he isn't, I'd like to hear what makes you think so because it's opposite to what my eyes have witnessed.

Laine has been benched continuously throughout his entire career for not coming back defensively and overall poor efforts. I too have watched Laine since before he was drafted and there were absolutely attitude questions about him before the draft.

If you are trying to state that Laine has not spent time in the dog house with every coach that he has had then I don't know who you have been watching. He flat out admits that he does not handle criticism well and this was one of the reasons for him joining the PAP for help.

Laine plays well when he is happy and shuts it down when he is not, that is just the truth. He acknowledges this and has worked on himself so hopefully Montreal is a great next chapter in his career where he can finally find consistency.

 

[Mudz]

Is Laine top 5 in pure shooting all time? I honestly think he might be. Watched all his highlights when we got him and I think like 95% of his goals are pure snipes. Never seen a ratio so heavy.

Haha yeah. I didn't know much about Laine.

After a video of just highlights, we put all of his 21-22 goals to have a better idea of his style. First goal is like an empty netter tap in. Then is next few goals are snipes. So we started to track his % of goals that were snipes... We gave up at like 9/10, they all were!

That's when I really got excited about that pick up.

 

[KevSkillz4]

Laine is a fantastic teammate, but so far in his career, he put himself big pressure.

Now with his better health mental, this guy, have everything to put his best seasons with Habs, he is in the right spot, the right environnement, he is a founder with his wife a mental program... he have no time for "Fortnite".

The tools of this player is truly insane, with a better shape physic and mental, watch out...

I'm big fan of him before his draft year, I always like him with Winnipeg and I watched some Columbus games aswell and his 2 first year, he play very well on ice, but the Tort's coach, I'm not a fan of his coaching game. So, Laine have not coach like MSL in his career, that will make a huge difference.

 

[Tyson]

The year his production fell to 28 goals he only played 68 games

In 21-22 he scored 26 in 56 games had had 56 points. That's a 35 G plus pace.

In 22-23 he had 22G in 55 games and finished with 52 points. Another 30+ goal pace.

if he stays healthy I think he easily scores 35G.
This guy is an elite talent.

 

[KevSkillz4]

The year his production fell to 28 goals he only played 68 games

In 21-22 he scored 26 in 56 games had had 56 points. That's a 35 G plus pace.

In 22-23 he had 22G in 55 games and finished with 52 points. Another 30+ goal pace.

if he stays healthy I think he easily scores 35G.
This guy is an elite talent.

Yes, huge elite talent when healthy.

He isn't only a elite goalscorer, but he have elite hands, great skater aswell, great passing ability too.

 

[Mcdonaldz]

Not even a week after joining the Habs he’s already « greatest shot of all-time »

That’s something

 

[Marioesque]

Not even a week after joining the Habs he’s already « greatest shot of all-time »

That’s something

He's had that since like 16 years old.

As someone mentioned above, the highlight reel is unique. It's like 80-90% long range snipes. Other great shooters have like 20% max.

 

[Jack Skellington]

Not even a week after joining the Habs he’s already « greatest shot of all-time »

That’s something

That’s been said since he was basically a rookie, nothing to do with the Habs. He probably is the best pure shooter right now and obviously technology and training/techniques are getting better so its pretty feasible that the current best is among the best ever. Someone like Bedard may surpass him but Laine is elite at every type of shot as well where some guys focus on just snap/wrist/slapshots. Obviously guys like Matthews and Ovi are there who are certainly better goal scorers overall but I think there’s an argument to be made.